If you can't kill it with a 9mm, you need a rifle - Page 2

Elysianarcane · 11-13-2012, 03:30

9mm for flexibility.

.45 is the undisputed king of manstoppers.

uz2bUSMC · 11-13-2012, 05:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOH212

The 10mm may have more penetration but it's just long and skinny.

The .45 is short and fat. Just the way it ought to be!

The 10mm may go in deeper but you'll really feel that short fat .45 they day after!

You really went there...

uz2bUSMC · 11-13-2012, 05:27

Double

uz2bUSMC · 11-13-2012, 05:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by unit1069

Believe it or not I recall at least one GT thread where one or two Facklerites did devalue the legendary .357 Magnum's reputation. I remember it very well because I located a graphic of the "perfect wound profile" created by Fackler himself that still failed to sway the GT members who refused to give the Magnum its proper credit.

Shawn Dodson probably the culprit.

4949shooter · 11-13-2012, 05:59

Load selection is more important than caliber selection.

That having been said, there are some calibers that are more forgiving of the lesser load selections. The 10mm and .45 ACP would be in this category.

Shoot what you feel most comfortable with. If you can handle a .40 or .45, then by all means go for it.

4949shooter · 11-13-2012, 06:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC

You really went there...

Yes, she did..

English · 11-13-2012, 06:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy W

That about sums up what I've come to think about the debate between various service calibers in pistols. I mean, maybe .40 and .45 are marginally better than 9mm but really, it's not gonna make that big of a differene. If you ever encounter a situation where several center mass hits with quality 9mm ammo can't take care of it, you need to either 1) consider retreating or 2.) get to a long gun if that isn't an option. If you really think about it, if it's not dying after beiing hit with a 9mm, that little bit of extra power a .40 or .45 offers probably won't make a difference.

What do you guys think?

What do I think? I think you are falling into a logical error in which time is negleted.

If you need to shoot someone who is shooting at you, you ned to stop them shooting at you as quickly as possible to reduce their chance of killing you. Whether a 9mm will kill them or not if they stand still while you shoot enough rounds at them is irrelevant. All that matters is how long it is before they stop shooting.

All the rounds which are more powerful than the 9mm have more bullet momentum and so pistols shooting those rounds take a little longer to get back to aim. But the first shot takes just the same time for a .40 as for a 9mm and just a little longer for a .45 or 10mm because the pistol has more mass. So, you need to maximise the effect of the first shot and maximise the effect of the number fired per time to fire them.

In other words, if it takes fewer shots of .40, 357SIG, .45 or 10mm on average to stop the fight than a 9mm, can you fire those shots in more or less time than the number needed for the 9mm. As far as I am concerned the split time difference is very small and I think the extra effect of the better than 9mms save you time to the stop. Your opinion and time difference might be different but that does not mean the 9mm is always as good as the more than 9mms.

Incidentally, getting shot with almost anything is likely to hinder the process of making an aimed shot, so the first hit is very important because it buys you some time before your opponent's next shot. Because of this, although the 10mm almost certainly has a greater effect per shot than the 357SIG, the 357SIG might be a better choice because the lighter weight of the pistol lets you get that first shot just a tiny part of a second sooner. This argument does not apply between the 9mm and the 357SIG, in Glocks at least, because they are the same weight.

English

clarkz71 · 11-13-2012, 07:51

The LE guys seem to like the .40

If the 9mm was just as good they all would
carry it and save on ammo.

FBI issues the G23

Secret service the 357 sig

alwaysshootin · 11-13-2012, 09:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glockworks

If you think 9mm is a whoose round (it did in Trevon didn't it?), then stand still and let me shoot you in a non-lethal area and see what you think then.

I'll tell you what I'm going to do. We will discuss between the two of us, and decide, where that "non-lethal" shot will be taken. I'll shoot first, because it was your idea, and, shoot you with my G20, in the spot we decided as "non-lethal". Then you go second!

Thought so! Off the top of my head, a hand shot may be the only option for surviving the first shot, but guessing, you will probably lose that hand!

So for Gods sake, don't pick your shooting hand.

alwaysshootin · 11-13-2012, 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarkz71

The LE guys seem to like the .40

If the 9mm was just as good they all would
carry it and save on ammo.

FBI issues the G23

Secret service the 357 sig

Don't forget those special forces heroes! Which firearm company, just won a large contract, and, what caliber was it in?

Andy W · 11-13-2012, 10:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarkz71

The LE guys seem to like the .40

If the 9mm was just as good they all would
carry it and save on ammo.

FBI issues the G23

Secret service the 357 sig

The .40 round is so prevalent in LE because it is a compromise round. As with any organization, the leadership like to make compromise decisions because it makes them look good.

My guess is most cops who are gun savvy would choose to carry a 9mm or .45 if given the choice.

ditto1958 · 11-13-2012, 11:37

I think this is my favorite non-political subject to debate.

I think the most important thing is whether you can consistenty hit what you are shooting at. If I can't hit the broad side of a barn with 17 rounds of 9mm, but I can get five hits out of a 10 rd magazine of 22lr I'm way better off with the 22. Likewise, a shooter who is good enough with his 1911 to get 3 or 4 shots into the chests of two attackers from one mag? He should definitely carry his .45.

fredj338 · 11-13-2012, 13:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy W

That about sums up what I've come to think about the debate between various service calibers in pistols. I mean, maybe .40 and .45 are marginally better than 9mm but really, it's not gonna make that big of a differene. If you ever encounter a situation where several center mass hits with quality 9mm ammo can't take care of it, you need to either 1) consider retreating or 2.) get to a long gun if that isn't an option. If you really think about it, if it's not dying after beiing hit with a 9mm, that little bit of extra power a .40 or .45 offers probably won't make a difference.

What do you guys think?

The question HAS NEVER BEEN whether a 9mm kills better than any other caliber but does it stop better? With good JHP, a 9mm gets off it's knees & becomes as good a stopper as any other service pistol. That IMO, others have theirs. There is a reason the 9mm took so long to become a viable LE caliber, you have to have good JHP. I would rather carry a good 9mm JHP than ball in 45acp. Given good JHP in any caliber, bigger is slightly better & slightly may be all that you get in a gunfight.

bunk22 · 11-13-2012, 18:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by samurairabbi

For (1) concealed carry (2) in public (3) by a civilian (4) in the US, the rifle is simply inapplicable. The rifle's superiority against an opponent becomes irrelevant if the situation precludes your possessing it at that moment.

This

uz2bUSMC · 11-13-2012, 18:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunk22

This

He's right. Fight your way back to your rifle is BS in my opinion.

K.Kiser · 11-13-2012, 18:41

They're all pretty anemic in the grand scheme of things, and is there any adult's that can't "handle" a 10mm..? I do believe it to be a fine cartridge that surpasses the other big 3, It's really not that much gun outside of an argument...

Andy W · 11-13-2012, 20:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysianarcane

9mm for flexibility.

.45 is the undisputed king of manstoppers.

I do love the .45 ACP round.

However, the real undisputed king of manstoppers at close range is 12 guage 00 buckshot. Well, I guess there is also the Barrett but if you're engaging a threat with one of those, especially at the ranges they are intended for, you're gonna have some 'splainin' to do

FishyOne · 11-13-2012, 22:21

It's hard to beat a .45 +P loaded with 230gr HP pill at 950fps.

Zombie Steve · 11-13-2012, 22:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by FishyOne

It's hard to beat a .45 Colt loaded with 250gr HP pill at 1,200fps.

Fixed. Welcome to Glocktalk.

countrygun · 11-13-2012, 23:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by clarkz71

The LE guys seem to like the .40

If the 9mm was just as good they all would
carry it and save on ammo.

FBI issues the G23

Secret service the 357 sig

Most LE carry what hey're issued. The guys who make the and not gunfighters decisions are generally bean counters (and very few LE are gunfighters ither) the .40 is helped along GREATLY because of it's tie to the FBI and the fact that Glock all but throws G-22s at LEAs helping the bean counters balance the budget.

Not knocking the .40 (I am wearing a CZ P-06 right now) but stop and look at the numbers. IF the .40 was "so good" because the bullet is bigger in diameter and usually a little heavier, than the 9mm despite the lower velocity then the .45 acp has to be much better than the .40 by the same yardstick.

A lot of things go into the choices that lead to what an LEO is issued. Few of them should impress a civillian.

NEOH212 · 11-14-2012, 02:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by uz2bUSMC

You really went there...

Yep!

Trust me on this one!

Glockworks · 11-14-2012, 02:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by alwaysshootin

I'll tell you what I'm going to do. We will discuss between the two of us, and decide, where that "non-lethal" shot will be taken. I'll shoot first, because it was your idea, and, shoot you with my G20, in the spot we decided as "non-lethal". Then you go second!

Thought so! Off the top of my head, a hand shot may be the only option for surviving the first shot, but guessing, you will probably lose that hand!

So for Gods sake, don't pick your shooting hand.

Maybe I wasn't clear, I don't want to get shot at by even a .22LR, I am a whoose when it comes to such things.

NEOH212 · 11-14-2012, 03:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysianarcane

9mm for flexibility.

Agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elysianarcane

.45 is the undisputed king of manstoppers.

One of the best in a handgun but certainly not the king, even in a handgun. Maybe when comparing the 9mm, .40S&W and .45 ACP it could be considered the best of the three.

I still say the .357 Mag with a 4" barrel loaded with a 125 grain JHP loaded to 1,450 fps has a good bit of a edge over the .45 ACP and just about everything else in the handgun world that you are likely to tote with you on a daily basis.

(That ought to piss some people off!

)

Electrikkoolaid · 11-14-2012, 04:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by NEOH212

I still say the .357 Mag with a barrel loaded with a 125 grain JHP loaded to 1,450 fps has a good bit of a edge over the .45 ACP and just about everything else in the handgun world that you are likely to tote with you on a daily basis.

Set that off inside your house some night, and I hope you actually get that "one shot stop", because you'll be blind and deaf for several minutes afterwards.

SCmasterblaster · 11-14-2012, 07:05

I carry a G17 that launches 115gr JHPs at 1400 FPS. And it is true, if I can't resolve a gun battle with 34 of these rounds, then I'll get my Mossberg M500 12ga and use OOO buck, which is like shooting 8 nine-millimeter slugs at once at 1350 FPS.