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Old 11-13-2012, 22:45   #26
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
The key is "different", not "lesser" standards. Women have other physical traits such as overall better hand-eye coordination (important in shooting small arms) and much higher general resistance to pain (important in all manner of military situations).

In modern combat, it isn't all about upper body strength.
My question stands unanswered.

You said that "Women may not have the upper body strength that most men have, and they may need some different physical standards as a result,...."

So when, in combat, do you do that?
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Old 11-13-2012, 22:46   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 427 View Post
Also from the article:



...
The two quotes you added are opinions from ONE committee member.

The Caracal Battallion and its success are a matter of record that can't be denied.
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Old 11-13-2012, 22:50   #28
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Originally Posted by jame View Post
My question stands unanswered.

You said that "Women may not have the upper body strength that most men have, and they may need some different physical standards as a result,...."

So when, in combat, do you do that?
In modern combat, a fight is more often decided by reaction time and hand-eye coordination than by sheer strength. To use your own gambit, should someone call "time out" in a firefight to wait for the slower male soldier with lesser fine motor skills to draw aim and accurately fire at a threat?
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Old 11-13-2012, 22:55   #29
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
In modern combat, a fight is more often decided by reaction time and hand-eye coordination than by sheer strength. To use your own gambit, should someone call "time out" in a firefight to wait for the slower male soldier with lesser fine motor skills to draw aim and accurately fire at a threat?
Nope.

But I'd sure expect him to have the upper body strength to haul my shot up, pasty white ass out of the line of fire.
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Old 11-13-2012, 22:55   #30
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Could we not look to women cops as an example?
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Old 11-13-2012, 22:58   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
The two quotes you added are opinions from ONE committee member.

The Caracal Battallion and its success are a matter of record that can't be denied.
According to this article:
Border shootout proves mettle of mixed-gender IDF unit
The Caracal battalion, comprised of 60 percent women, patrols the volatile Israeli-Egyptian border
http://www.timesofisrael.com/mixed-g...ves-its-worth/

Quote:
Women were barred from combat until 2000, the year Caracal was introduced as a way to ease females into combat duty. The unit was positioned in areas along Israel’s borders with Jordan and Egypt. For years, the territory was calm, largely because Israel has peace deals with both neighbors. Soldiers who were there mostly worked to prevent drug and weapons’ smuggling and while they were trained to neutralize an armed threat, they rarely faced one.

But in the last year and a half, since the fall of longtime Egyptian leader Hosni Mubarak, Caracal’s usual patrolling area near Egypt has become a hotbed of militant activity. Egypt’s vast Sinai peninsula is home to Islamic extremists who have staged attacks against Egyptian and Israeli targets. The Jordanian border has remained quiet.
So it appears the unit doesn't have a long combat history.
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:01   #32
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Originally Posted by jame View Post
Nope.

But I'd sure expect him to have the upper body strength to haul my shot up, pasty white ass out of the line of fire.
Being able to "haul your shot up ass" is of little consequence when that same buddy is too slow to react to a sudden threat before it pumps you full of holes in the first place.

Women and men BOTH have respective physical advantages and disadvantages in modern infantry warfare. Dismissing one sex because they can't do as many pushups while ignoring the fact that they are generally faster and have better fine motor coordination when handling weapons is short-sighted, at best.
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:04   #33
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So it appears the unit doesn't have a long combat history.
How long and how many dozens of combat engagements do you feel it takes to prove an infantry unit is effective?

And what of the female sniper units the Russians used in WWII? Were they not engaged long enough and successfully enough in combat to pass your test? Did the SS and Wermacht infantry not constitute a worthy enough opponent for them to prove their mettle against?
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:05   #34
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Being able to "haul your shot up" is of little consequence when that same buddy is too slow to react to a sudden threat before it blows your head off.

Women and men BOTH have respective physical advantages and disadvantages in modern infantry warfare. Dismissing one sex because they can't do as many pushups while ignoring the fact that they are generally faster and have better fine motor coordination when handling weapons is short-sighted, at best.
OK, maybe a more direct question is in order.

Have you ever been in a position where you've had to use sheer strength to save someone from harm? Do you know what that's like?
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:11   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
How long and how many dozens of combat engagements do you feel it takes to prove an infantry unit is effective?

Were 'Rudders Rangers' an ineffective unit in WWII because their part in the war lasted less than 2 years?
It sounds like this unit is engaged in duties more aligned with our Border Patrol, which can obviously be dangerous, but in a different sense than full on combat.
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:27   #36
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OK, maybe a more direct question is in order.

Have you ever been in a position where you've had to use sheer strength to save someone from harm? Do you know what that's like?
Yes I have, but I have also seen situations where a fraction of a second in reaction time has made the difference between life and death, and I know what THAT is like, too.

Like I said, both sexes have physical advantages and disadvantages in modern combat.

From the female snipers in Russia, to the female Viet Cong and NVA jungle fighters in Vietnam, to the Israeli Caracal Battallion, women have proven themselves in combat too many times across too many battlefields for far too long to seriously question their abilities as fighting infantry.
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:28   #37
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How long and how many dozens of combat engagements do you feel it takes to prove an infantry unit is effective?
Where did I state my "feelings" about anything having to do with the combat effectiveness of the Caracal Battalion?
You implied that the battalion has a long history. I stated that it appears the unit doesn't have a long combat history. Nothing more. Nothing less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
And what of the female sniper units the Russians used in WWII?
What about them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Were they not engaged long enough and successfully enough in combat to pass your test?
What is my "test"? Please tell me so I'll know, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Did the SS and Wermacht infantry not constitute a worthy enough opponent for them to prove their mettle against?
Where did I say anything about female Soviet snipers, the SS, Wermacht?

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Old 11-13-2012, 23:35   #38
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It sounds like this unit is engaged in duties more aligned with our Border Patrol, which can obviously be dangerous, but in a different sense than full on combat.
Fair enough, but border patrol and security work is the bulk of what the IDF infantry does, save for the very rare occasion when Israel actually invades a neighbor. That being said, the women of the Caracal have performed with distinction every time they have faced an attack. And MAN that must piss off their fundamentalist Islamist adversaries! Imagine being the Jihadist commander that has to go back to his superiors and report that his outfit got its ass handed to it by a bunch of Jewish women!
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:38   #39
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Physical requirements are there for a reason. Height, weight, eyesight, hearing, color perception ect., how are they any different than having to meet run, strength, swimming, ect, requirements?

If the requirements can't be met, why should the job be open to anyone, man or woman, who can't meet them?
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:41   #40
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Where did I say anything about female Soviet snipers, the SS, Wermacht?

The Caracal are not the only example of successful female infantry solders I have offered up. Apologies if that throwback to an earlier post was a bit out of the blue.
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:51   #41
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Physical requirements are there for a reason. Height, weight, eyesight, hearing, color perception ect., how are they any different than having to meet run, strength, swimming, ect, requirements?

If the requirements can't be met, why should the job be open to anyone, man or woman, who can't meet them?
Like they say, the military is great at training to win the LAST war they fought. The pushup, situp and other standards in the military exist largely (but not exclusively) because they are easy to administer in bulk to large groups of recruits and because 'that's how it has always been done'.

The battlefield has changed a great deal in the last two decades, however. On an ambush-oriented, asymetrical battlefield and with modern weapons, other attibutes like reaction time and hand-eye coordination are (in my opinion) of equal importance, but the military hasn't caught up yet with the fact that it isn't all about who can bench-press the most anymore.

Many women have the grit and courage for the job, and can bring attributes to the field that are of at least equal value to raw strength and stamina. History shows that where women have been employed as infantry, they have served well and I think they deserve a shot at serving in that role.
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:53   #42
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I know several **** hot female combat pilots, in both fixed wing fighters, CAS, and rotary wing gunships. As well as have had the distinct honor of going into combat with some great utility rotor wing female pilots.

I don't think they belong in the inf. but they can absolutely hack it behind a stick.
I don't know how true it is but I've heard many times (mostly from a Navy brother, Navy BIL and Air Force cousin) that women can withstand higher G-force for longer time periods while retaining cognitive skills and physical strength/fine motor skills because of their lower blood volume and relative strength of their circulatory system compared to men. Sounds great. Go with what works and treat military personnel like military equipment. Set a standard and require it to be met in order to do the job. The battle field is no place for affirmative action.
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Old 11-13-2012, 23:53   #43
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http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...infantry+women

Summary: 2 women passed the screening physical requirements to enter the Marine Infantry Officer School. Both failed to complete the course due to injuries.
What type of injuries? I can't read the full article.

I went through Infantry OSUT at Ft. Benning and being washed out for an injury is quiet common. It happens to guys too, it's par for the course. You get a recycle or a ticket home depending on the nature of your injury. There is also a point where the medics/ instructors will not let you train.

Instead of looking at female police officers as an example, how long have we had female firefighters? Have they been able or unable to regularly haul unconscious, borderline obese people out of burning buildings?

My personal opinion is that if they can pass the same test that is deemed good enough for guys, let them run with the big dogs. That being said, I also feel that the push up/sit up/run pt test is a little dated and is not the best assessment for success in the modern infantry.
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Old 11-14-2012, 00:04   #44
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Like they say, the military is great at training to win the LAST war they fought. The pushup, situp and other standards in the military exist largely (but not exclusively) because they are easy to administer in bulk to large groups of recruits and because 'that's how it has always been done'.

The battlefield has changed a great deal in the last two decades, however. On an ambush-oriented, asymetrical battlefield and with modern weapons, other attibutes like reaction time and hand-eye coordination are (in my opinion) of equal importance, but the military hasn't caught up yet with the fact that it isn't all about who can bench-press the most anymore.

Many women have the grit and courage for the job, and can bring attributes to the field that are of at least equal value to raw strength and stamina. History shows that where women have been employed as infantry, they have served well and I think they deserve a shot at serving in that role.
I'm a very weak swimmer. There's no way I'd ever meet the swim requirements to be a SEAL. Should the standards be lowered or waived?

If I had bad color perception there are some jobs I don't qualify for. Should those requirements be waived?
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Old 11-14-2012, 00:12   #45
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I'm a very weak swimmer. There's no way I'd ever meet the swim requirements to be a SEAL. Should the standards be lowered or waived?

If I had bad color perception there are some jobs I don't qualify for. Should those requirements be waived?
Swimming is obviously critical for a SEAL. When's the last time you saw an infantryman save his ass in a firefight by dropping and doing 20 pushups, however?

You are assuming that the current PT standards, standards that ignore critical traits like hand-eye coordination and reaction time, are the be-all and end-all of measuring infantry potential.

I don't think they are.

Personally, I feel that the military PT standards are long overdue to be shifted to a system that stresses overall physical conditioning as well as fine motor skills and coordination, rather than just upper body strength and the ability to crank out sit-ups.
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Old 11-14-2012, 00:29   #46
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Swimming is obviously critical for a SEAL. When's the last time you saw an infantryman save his ass in a firefight by dropping and doing 20 pushups, however?

You are assuming that the current PT standards, standards that ignore critical traits like hand-eye coordination and reaction time, are the be-all and end-all of measuring infantry potential.

I don't think they are.
Hand eye coordination and reaction time doesn't mean anything if they don't have the stamina to complete a forced march for say eight miles with a full load and be ready to fight.

If I'm a SEAL and I get a waiver for swimming, my awesome hand eye coordination and reaction times don't mean a thing if I drown because of my weak swimming.
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Old 11-14-2012, 00:42   #47
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I can probably carry Okie up a ladder in a burning ship. Very few females can get me over a knee-knocker.
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Old 11-14-2012, 01:27   #48
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Old 11-14-2012, 02:15   #49
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Most of the guys that I know that are police, prison guards, or firefighters will acknowledge that women don't excel in those positions. Upper body strength isn't needed on a daily basis, but when it is needed, it is absolutely needed. There is no good substitute for upper body strength when you have to carry someone or when having to lay hands on a struggling, belligerent person.
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Old 11-14-2012, 04:12   #50
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They lower the standards for women firefighters and police officers as compared to men.

Who do you want to come haul you out of a burning building, a male firefighter or some petite woman firefighter?

I worked with women in the department of corrections as well as in the military and in both cases they were unable to complete the same job functions as the men, so exceptions get made for them.

To those that are so sure that some women can do the same job, would you put those same women on an NFL pro football team?? No, because no matter how athletic, they can not do the same things as the men can do.

Hand to hand combat? Remember the female wrestler "Chyna"? She had a body like a man. Everyone talked about how strong and athletic she was. Then she went into a celebrity boxing match with old gray balding out of shape fat Joey Buttefucco and he kicked her butt all over the place. Why?? Because there are differences between men and women and it is just a fact.
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