Man with gun in Walmart arrested for refusing to show permit - Page 2

JJohnson · 11-09-2012, 14:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-421

At least they get to open carry.

There is that. Can you do that in TX?

pipedreams · 11-09-2012, 14:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJohnson

God knows that no other state has open carry idiots looking for attention.

We also let gays from Alabama come up here and get married. Tell your friends.

certifiedfunds · 11-09-2012, 14:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck TX

How...progressive.

Sweet isn't it?

certifiedfunds · 11-09-2012, 15:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJohnson

There is that. Can you do that in TX?

No. Texans have to get government permission to carry.

Don't Mess With Texas

Patchman · 11-09-2012, 15:05

The guy went to jail. He should also lose his job.

noway · 11-09-2012, 15:14

Whatever we do, we need to follow the letter of the law

Here's the statute of IOWA law and yes you need a permit for open or conceal carry

i. A person who has in the person's possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of this section if the person produces at the person's trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the person's conduct within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense.

noway · 11-09-2012, 15:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchman

The guy went to jail. He should also lose his job.

Why is that so? Please advise.

pipedreams · 11-09-2012, 15:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patchman

The guy went to jail. He should also lose his job.

Why? He may of acted dumb but why his job.

"Iowa law specifically provides that a person carrying a weapon must show his permit when asked by a peace officer. Note also that the charge will probably be dismissed if he produces the permit at trial."

"Section 724.4(3)(i) provides "A person who has in the person’s possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of this section if the person produces at the person’s trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the person’s conduct within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense."

GIockGuy24 · 11-09-2012, 15:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipedreams

Why? He may of acted dumb but why his job.

"Iowa law specifically provides that a person carrying a weapon must show his permit when asked by a peace officer. Note also that the charge will probably be dismissed if he produces the permit at trial."

"Section 724.4(3)(i) provides "A person who has in the person’s possession and who displays to a peace officer on demand a valid permit to carry weapons which has been issued to the person, and whose conduct is within the limits of that permit. A person shall not be convicted of a violation of this section if the person produces at the person’s trial a permit to carry weapons which was valid at the time of the alleged offense and which would have brought the person’s conduct within this exception if the permit had been produced at the time of the alleged offense."

The difference may be his conduct though. The difference between "refusing" to show the permit and just not having it.

Once I was way out in the middle nowhere, with nothing around for miles. The biggest business in the whole county seemed to be a Super Walmart that was open 24 hours. I stopped there because there wasn't anything else around. I went inside and they had county police officers in uniform working security there.

TK-421 · 11-09-2012, 15:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJohnson

There is that. Can you do that in TX?

No. The one state you'd figure would be the most pro-gun in the entire country, and you can't open carry. Oh, and don't even think about printing, or accidentally exposing your gun, like if your shirt lifts up. Both will get you in serious trouble, and is equivalent to open carry, from what I gather. At least in florida you're allowed to print, and if your shirt lifts up and exposes your gun, like if you're reaching to the top shelf for something, nobody cares. The problem is that the legislature meets every two years, and only for 140 days, and they're so busy with the budget and other ****, that they don't have time to discuss open carry. It was on the table last session, but they didn't do anything with it. Hopefully this session they'll allow it.

rednoved · 11-09-2012, 15:34

Idiot.

pipedreams · 11-09-2012, 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by noway

Here's the statute of IOWA law and yes you need a permit for open or conceal carry

Section 724.4(3)(i) of the Iowa code only applies to conceal carry and has nothing to do with open carry. You can open carry without a conceal carry permit and always could but you have to be careful you don't run afoul a local municipal ordnance. I would say it is unwise to open carry unless you are hunting or on your own private property.

brboyer · 11-09-2012, 15:56

I was not there so do not know the whole story, but I have to question the legality for demand of the license/permit.

There is quite a bit of case law on this subject, but LEO that work 'security' gigs are operating under the authority of the property owner, not the government, until such time as he/she has RS of a crime being committed.

Just because he was a LEO in uniform, does not necessarily mean that he was in the lawful performance of his duties at the time he requested/demanded the license/permit, nor does it mean that the encounter was a lawful detention/seizure of his person under the 4th Amendment.

Not sure how IOWA case law stands on open carry as RS of a crime.

JJohnson · 11-09-2012, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-421

No. The one state you'd figure would be the most pro-gun in the entire country, and you can't open carry...

Does it take anything besides a 4473 to buy a pistol from a dealer? Can you just walk in, lay down cash and walk away with one? Background checks, etc?

TK-421 · 11-09-2012, 16:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJohnson

Does it take anything besides a 4473 to buy a pistol from a dealer? Can you just walk in, lay down cash and walk away with one? Background checks, etc?

All it takes is money and a background check. A background check usually takes 15 minutes, unless it's delayed. You fill out the paper work, they call it in, if you're good to go, you walk out with the firearm. If you're delayed, they have three days to say no, otherwise you can go and pick it up after three days.

When I bought my 23, I walked in, I was delayed, probably because it was the first time I bought a firearm, and they told me three days. They ended up calling me the next day, I went and picked it up and drove home with my new gun five minutes after walking into the store the next day.

The nice thing is that they don't have to do a background check if you have a CHL. You just walk in, fill out the paper work, hand over your cash and your CHL, and you walk out with your gun a few minutes later.

Of course, that's presuming the guys at the gun store gave me correct information, but I'm pretty sure they did, since they do this for a living.

tantrix · 11-09-2012, 16:24

If state law says you must show your permit to LE, then you must do it. However, since he was open-carrying I don't see why this was even an issue. Here, it would have simply been some form of picture ID and he would have gone on his way unless the store manager insisted he leave the premises.

oldman11 · 11-09-2012, 16:26

What I don't understand is why the hesitancy to show the CHL when asked, even if it's just Walmarts own security. It only takes a second and then everyone is happy.

tantrix · 11-09-2012, 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldman11

What I don't understand is why the hesitancy to show the CHL when asked, even if it's just Walmarts own security. It only takes a second and then everyone is happy.

Because he was open carrying...if open carry is legal there without a permit, there is no reason to even ask for such a thing.

***Chuck TX*** · 11-09-2012, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-421

At least they get to open carry.

Apparently it doesn't go so well all the time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by certifiedfunds

No. Texans have to get government permission to carry.

Don't Mess With Texas

What's littering got to do with it?

txleapd · 11-09-2012, 16:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-421

It doesn't specify which uniform he was wearing. Was he wearing a Walmart Security Guard uniform, or a Police Officer uniform? My guess would be a Walmart Security Guard Uniform, because if I saw a guy wearing that uniform, and he didn't announce himself as an off duty cop, I'd tell him to buzz off when he asked to see my permit. But if the cop was wearing his police uniform, then the guy shouldn't be allowed to carry his gun for being so stupid. If a cop in uniform asked to see my permit, I'd show it to him, required by law or not, because I'd consider it polite, presuming I was required to have a permit to open carry.

However, this is exactly the kind of reason why I prefer concealed carry. Because when done properly, the cop would have had 0 idea the guy was armed, and he wouldn't be in his current predicament.

You've seen a "Walmart Security Guard Uniform"?

Really? I never have. Weird.

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b_oglethorpe · 11-09-2012, 16:36

The police violated his rights an we should start collecting for a legal defense fund!!!!!

Haha I'm kidding.

pipedreams · 11-09-2012, 16:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by tantrix

If state law says you must show your permit to LE, then you must do it. However, since he was open-carrying I don't see why this was even an issue. Here, it would have simply been some form of picture ID and he would have gone on his way unless the store manager insisted he leave the premises.

This, this case has nothing to do with conceal carry and showing a permit. It is simply open carry and if the management of the store felt uncomfortable with the situation they should ask the person to leave. If they refuse then a trespass charge can be issued by law enforcement. This has nothing to do with conceal carry or any type of permit.

tantrix · 11-09-2012, 16:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipedreams

This, this case has nothing to do with conceal carry and showing a permit. It is simply open carry and if the management of the store felt uncomfortable with the situation they should ask the person to leave. If they refuse then a trespass charge can be issued by law enforcement. This has nothing to do with conceal carry or any type of permit.

Exactly.

txleapd · 11-09-2012, 16:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by brboyer

I was not there so do not know the whole story, but I have to question the legality for demand of the license/permit.

There is quite a bit of case law on this subject, but LEO that work 'security' gigs are operating under the authority of the property owner, not the government, until such time as he/she has RS of a crime being committed.

Just because he was a LEO in uniform, does not necessarily mean that he was in the lawful performance of his duties at the time he requested/demanded the license/permit, nor does it mean that the encounter was lawfully a detention/seizure of his person under 4th Amendment.

Not sure how IOWA case law stands on open carry as RS of a crime.

I don't know how it is in Iowa, but in Texas the authority take legal action is always in effect for Peace Officers. Regardless of on duty, working a secondary assignment, or off duty.

As a side note, my department requires you to wear your department uniform when working a secondary assignment gig, and log on with Communications, so you can be put into CAD (Computer Aided Dispatch).

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JJohnson · 11-09-2012, 16:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by TK-421

All it takes is money and a background check. A background check usually takes 15 minutes, unless it's delayed. You fill out the paper work, they call it in, if you're good to go, you walk out with the firearm. If you're delayed, they have three days to say no, otherwise you can go and pick it up after three days...

Cool thanks. Our permit to purchase pistols allows one to walk into a store and skip the background check completely. Considering the time savings and convenience, I guess Chuck TX was right, it is a progressive idea.

These are only used if one doesn't have a CCW. Since we are a "shall issue" state now, I assume this document will be phased out eventually.