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Old 11-08-2012, 23:36   #51
Slug71
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Why not? An employee could just up and leave taking the skilled labor needed to meet a clients demands on schedule with them when they leave, and it my not be possible to replace them in time to meet the obligations the company made.

As an employee you should find a company that won't do that, and as an employer you should find employees that would pay you the same respect/courtesy.

At will protects from being stuck if you come to realize you are in a situation you don't want to be.

If you'd rather trade liberty for security, you want a union without realizing it.
Agree with your first 3 paragraphs but again, i'm not saying overhaul it.
Just saying a legitimate reason or one warning before termination would be nice. Everything else can stay the same.
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:44   #52
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I agree completely. Unfortunately, unions and lawsuits have made it so that employers almost need a court order to fire someone. That keeps a lot of people in jobs they shouldn't be doing.
You couldn't be more wrong. As an IBEW electrician, I can be laid off at any time for any reason whatsoever. There is no seniority, no review, no federal or state law to comply with, nothing. We have less "rights" than any other working personnel in the country. We also have minimum training requirements, mandatory drug testing, and at least a two year wait for another job if layoff occurs. The negative "union" nonsense people are so willing to believe here is never lacking.
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Old 11-09-2012, 04:54   #53
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I agree completely. Unfortunately, unions and lawsuits have made it so that employers almost need a court order to fire someone. That keeps a lot of people in jobs they shouldn't be doing.
There are problems in employment law, but your assertion is beyond exaggeration and even beyond hyperbole.

Even firing a government worker is not this difficult.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:12   #54
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There is an employer side to this story too. I'm an employer in a right to work state, and a couple of years back had an employee who mishandled a substantial amount of money. It threatened the financial health of the company and was a definite firing offense.

Even in a right to work state, he threatened to take us to court. We ended up giving him a severance package because it was cheaper than defending ourselves in court, even though we would have won hands down.

I know there are situations where employees get mistreated but we don't subscribe to those kinds of tactics. Most employers that I know don't. We give as much notice as we possibly can, give the employee ample time to correct the problem, give them a chance to move laterally if possible, and if all else fails we give a generous severance.
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:14   #55
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Im not suggesting change it completely.
Just saying/asking, is it too much to ask employers to give 1 warning so that employees that do not belong to a union have one chance to fix/change their ways?
And I'm asking what about employees?
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Old 11-09-2012, 05:17   #56
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The better employees thrive under at-will conditions.
Exactly.

I love at will employment

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Maybe where you are. I was just fired recently with no reason and had no prior warnings.
So they gave you no reason at all when you were let go? I find that hard to believe. What happened when you went and filed for unemployment? If they disputed it, then they will have to tell why they terminated you. Most employers, they invest enough time/effort in training new employees, they don't just can someone for no reason.

My guess is, you know why you were terminated..

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The fire is no longer my major concern since I am leaving immediately on an unexpected road trip to Indianapolis. Watch the national news over the next couple of days, I'll wave... well, only if I'm cuffed in the front.
RIP Jack

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Old 11-09-2012, 10:54   #57
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There is an employer side to this story too. I'm an employer in a right to work state, and a couple of years back had an employee who mishandled a substantial amount of money. It threatened the financial health of the company and was a definite firing offense.

Even in a right to work state, he threatened to take us to court. We ended up giving him a severance package because it was cheaper than defending ourselves in court, even though we would have won hands down.

I know there are situations where employees get mistreated but we don't subscribe to those kinds of tactics. Most employers that I know don't. We give as much notice as we possibly can, give the employee ample time to correct the problem, give them a chance to move laterally if possible, and if all else fails we give a generous severance.
Sounds fair. Generous even.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:03   #58
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This would be an example of 'don't hate the game, hate the player'

And another representation in the risks inherent in freedom.

Wouldn't have it any other way, you are free to choose poorly as much as wisely, and change your mind at any time for any reason or none at all.

That last sentence can apply equally to employer or employee, not much left like that so savor it while we still have it.
I suppose. But if I fire an employee the day before they are set to retire, I've already received the maximum amount of utility from them. I "promised" them retirement after X years of service, and they continued to stay for X years - 1 day in hopes of being able to retire. So in essence, I can just "use up" my employees and throw them away when I don't want to meet my end of the bargain.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:04   #59
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Exactly.

I love at will employment



So they gave you no reason at all when you were let go? I find that hard to believe. What happened when you went and filed for unemployment? If they disputed it, then they will have to tell why they terminated you. Most employers, they invest enough time/effort in training new employees, they don't just can someone for no reason.

My guess is, you know why you were terminated..

IGF
They gave me NO reason. I already quoted what the store manager said.
All I can think of is that one of the managers was running around lying again.

My stats were good. 100% attendance. Attended every meeting. Never violated policy. Got on well with other staff. Did whatever management asked.

I know they didn't like that I got on with staff as well as I did. But all the LP agents did. That staff knew that at any point we may investigate them and would have done so.
I also know they didn't like the fact I'm dating someone that works there. But they knew that when they hired me into the position.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:12   #60
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No.

An employer should be able to terminate an employee at will. And honestly I think if it is a truly privately owned company then they should be able to do so for ANY reason they want with NO notice.
Absolutely.
I've never understood those who proclaim that an employer "can't terminate you without good reason".

WTH? If I own a private business I should be able to hire you to give you a try, then terminate you if I decide I just don't want you around because I don't like your attitude, or fire you because of the way your momma dresses you for work.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:13   #61
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They gave me NO reason.
That doesn't mean there wasn't one.

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I also know they didn't like the fact I'm dating someone that works there. But they knew that when they hired me into the position.
And there it is.

(To be fair, I don't know you, but this could very well be the reason. It's easy to screw up "dating someone at work" without even noticing.)
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:17   #62
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How about this example:

Say I am a recruiter for a company based out of California, and I attend a career fair at a university in Colorado looking for a couple of engineers. At the career fair, I get 30 interested applicants. I conduct a hasty interview and decide to "hire" them all on the spot, with a promise of a job starting a month after they graduate with a salary higher than any other employer at the career fair is offering.

Graduation comes, and the students need to start preparing for their new job. So, they all sign leases in California and pay lots of money to move their stuff out there. After Day 1 of work, my company decides to keep the 2 that they want and fire the other 28. Essentially, using the hiring process as one large screening event. So, now those 28 people are up the creek without a paddle because they were led on by the company and were able to be fired without reason.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:17   #63
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Couldn't at-will employers can someone right before retirement to save money?
Word would get out and the company would lose valuable employees. All decisions have a cost.

Granted we are only talking about pension positions which are becoming more rare. If I got fired the day before retirement it would not matter. Retirement is my 401K which I own.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:17   #64
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With the way the economy is, I think employees should at least be given a verbal and/or written warning before being terminated and have the chance to 'fix' whatever the issue may be.
Nope.

What if my issue is "I can't make payroll this month unless I fire someone"?

What if the issue is "the employee is creeping out my customers"?

Employees can quit and employers can fire them. That's an equal balance of power. No reason to mess with it.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:18   #65
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Couldn't at-will employers can someone right before retirement to save money?
That's why all retirements should switch to defined-contribution. No vesting, no time-in-service requirements. Would prevent this kind of problem.

But to answer the question you asked, yes, of course employers could do that. But if they did, then the retirement benefit they offer wouldn't be worth much, would it? Word would get out. People would know.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:20   #66
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Sure and in the day of social media they would have a lot of problems next career fair hiring anyone. If I am looking at a company I do lot of homework on them.

Also if you are a strong enough candidate you negotiate relocation costs.

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How about this example:

Say I am a recruiter for a company based out of California, and I attend a career fair at a university in Colorado looking for a couple of engineers. At the career fair, I get 30 interested applicants. I conduct a hasty interview and decide to "hire" them all on the spot, with a promise of a job starting a month after they graduate with a salary higher than any other employer at the career fair is offering.

Graduation comes, and the students need to start preparing for their new job. So, they all sign leases in California and pay lots of money to move their stuff out there. After Day 1 of work, my company decides to keep the 2 that they want and fire the other 28. Essentially, using the hiring process as one large screening event. So, now those 28 people are up the creek without a paddle because they were led on by the company and were able to be fired without reason.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:21   #67
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How about this example:

Say I am a recruiter for a company based out of California, and I attend a career fair at a university in Colorado looking for a couple of engineers. At the career fair, I get 30 interested applicants. I conduct a hasty interview and decide to "hire" them all on the spot, with a promise of a job starting a month after they graduate with a salary higher than any other employer at the career fair is offering.

Graduation comes, and the students need to start preparing for their new job. So, they all sign leases in California and pay lots of money to move their stuff out there. After Day 1 of work, my company decides to keep the 2 that they want and fire the other 28. Essentially, using the hiring process as one large screening event. So, now those 28 people are up the creek without a paddle because they were led on by the company and were able to be fired without reason.
Would only work once. Yes, it sucks for those 28 folks, but what would happen the next year is that if an employer required someone to move, they'd have to offer in writing that they'll cover the relocation expenses and whatever fees are incurred in breaking a lease if things don't work out.

You can play "what if" forever. I can make up a dozen scenarios where employees screw employers. The fact is that no system is perfect.

Allow employees to quit. Allow employers to fire people. That's the only way to have a truly equal balance of power.

Now, it won't be equal for everyone--the more replaceable the employee (ie, less skill / experience required to do the job) the more likely the employer is to be willing to fire, and vice versa. But that's just the way life works.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:24   #68
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...
You can play "what if" forever. I can make up a dozen scenarios where employees screw employers. The fact is that no system is perfect.

Allow employees to quit. Allow employers to fire people. That's the only way to have a truly equal balance of power.

Now, it won't be equal for everyone--the more replaceable the employee (ie, less skill / experience required to do the job) the more likely the employer is to be willing to fire, and vice versa. But that's just the way life works.


And that is the simple truth.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:31   #69
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Would only work once. Yes, it sucks for those 28 folks, but what would happen the next year is that if an employer required someone to move, they'd have to offer in writing that they'll cover the relocation expenses and whatever fees are incurred in breaking a lease if things don't work out.

You can play "what if" forever. I can make up a dozen scenarios where employees screw employers. The fact is that no system is perfect.

Allow employees to quit. Allow employers to fire people. That's the only way to have a truly equal balance of power.

Now, it won't be equal for everyone--the more replaceable the employee (ie, less skill / experience required to do the job) the more likely the employer is to be willing to fire, and vice versa. But that's just the way life works.
To be honest, I really haven't formulated an opinion yet on at-will employment. I see where both sides are coming from.

When I worked at the Pentagon, there was this 400lb guy in a Hoveround always sleeping in the hallways. He usually had a 128 oz soda or bag of Ruffles in his lap too. I asked around to see what his deal was, and apparently he was the head guy in building maintenance. The people I asked also told me that it was almost impossible to get fired being a civilian employee of the DOD at the Pentagon; the only way is if you did something criminally. I could see where at-will employment would have be great in that situation.

I also see how at-will employment could be terrible in some situations.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:32   #70
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How about this example:

Say I am a recruiter for a company based out of California, and I attend a career fair at a university in Colorado looking for a couple of engineers. At the career fair, I get 30 interested applicants. I conduct a hasty interview and decide to "hire" them all on the spot, with a promise of a job starting a month after they graduate with a salary higher than any other employer at the career fair is offering.

Graduation comes, and the students need to start preparing for their new job. So, they all sign leases in California and pay lots of money to move their stuff out there. After Day 1 of work, my company decides to keep the 2 that they want and fire the other 28. Essentially, using the hiring process as one large screening event. So, now those 28 people are up the creek without a paddle because they were led on by the company and were able to be fired without reason.
Before I go to work for a company I research them thoroughly.

In a situation like that I would be negotiating a signing bonus, guarantee or relo package.

Right now the major oil companies are offering $50,000 sign on bonus for a chemE or petroleum engineer with a 3.5 or better. That or they'll zero out your student loans. That easily covers a 12 month lease.
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Old 11-09-2012, 11:40   #71
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...
I also see how at-will employment could be terrible in some situations.
Of course it can...
Who said life would be "fair" or always pleasant?

<not specifically directed at you here, but..>
Your best position is one of strength. Be capable and willing to create value and you won't have to worry about it.

Stuff happens sometimes even so, but if you have the ability to create value in the marketplace and are willing to exert the effort to do so then you will be rewarded for it.

It isn't always easy, but it isn't supposed to be.

Steve Martin once said "be so good that they can't ignore you".
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:02   #72
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Absolutely.
I've never understood those who proclaim that an employer "can't terminate you without good reason".

WTH? If I own a private business I should be able to hire you to give you a try, then terminate you if I decide I just don't want you around because I don't like your attitude, or fire you because of the way your momma dresses you for work.
Isn't that what the 'probabtionary' period is for?
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:04   #73
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That doesn't mean there wasn't one.



And there it is.

(To be fair, I don't know you, but this could very well be the reason. It's easy to screw up "dating someone at work" without even noticing.)
I did maintenance there before I moved over to LP. Ive been dating her since and they knew that.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:09   #74
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I did maintenance there before I moved over to LP. Ive been dating her since and they knew that.
Like I said, I don't know you. I'm sure you're a nice guy.

But the fact remains, just because they didn't tell you a reason doesn't mean there wasn't one. And maybe the reason doesn't have anything to do with you.

Employers and employees should be required to do whatever they agree to in writing, and nothing more. If you think an employer should be required to give a warning before firing, try and negotiate that into your contract on your next job.

If you have the scarcity power to demand that, then they'll do it for you. If you don't, well... that's how the cookie crumbles. Put up, find another opportunity, or start your own business.
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Old 11-09-2012, 12:10   #75
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Nope.

What if my issue is "I can't make payroll this month unless I fire someone"?

What if the issue is "the employee is creeping out my customers"?

Employees can quit and employers can fire them. That's an equal balance of power. No reason to mess with it.
Payroll situation is fine.

As for the other. The employee should be warned and given a chance to correct his ways. Else bye bye.

Everyones opinions seem so black or white. No middle ground.
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