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Old 11-05-2012, 07:55   #176
Sam Spade
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
A paid professional dept (which I am in favor of) is not equal to union. They are not synonyms.


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I agree completely. You should tell that to CF.

Again, I agree completely.
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:03   #177
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I agree completely. You should tell that to CF.

Again, I agree completely.

I need to get some skates Fed Exed to the devil
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Old 11-05-2012, 08:32   #178
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here it is in a nut shell guys, unions suck if your the tax payer paying for them because you will never get your dollars worth out of a union worker, and unions are the best thing that ever happened to us if your in the union
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:07   #179
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Yum, sacred cows make the best hamburger.
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:21   #180
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here it is in a nut shell guys, unions suck if your the tax payer paying for them because you will never get your dollars worth out of a union worker, and unions are the best thing that ever happened to us if your in the union
Let us be realistic. There are many many people that are hard workers and they have a decent work ethic with or without a union. Sometimes it simply is that they must belong to the union. Not all states are right to work states.

There is a difference a "union guy" and a guy who belongs to a union. (not picking on women..I used guy as unisex)




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Twice a week? 14 times a month?
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:23   #181
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Originally Posted by NDCent View Post
Yum, sacred cows make the best hamburger.
They can a lot of times have a lot of fat and even be part pork. Not the best hamburger meat. Of course you can't do anything else with such poor meat...except dog food?


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Old 11-05-2012, 09:25   #182
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When people rely on "the man", you are bound to fail at some point. Just robbing Peter to pay Paul.......Paul's good with that!
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:26   #183
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This is problably simplistic, bu something I see as a problem.

With grants, Federal and State support, starting and funding an expanding FD Department probably won't be out of line in competing with private and maybe even volunteer costs.

What will eventually rear it's ugly head is long term costs decades down the rode. A FF hired young at 20 retires at 40 and starts collecting retirement with healthcare, another is hired in his place. 20 years later that guy retires and another is hired in his place. That guy retires and another is hired in his place.

Now we have 1 funded Firefighter job, easy to pay for initally with grants and levies at the beginning, but now that one job has not only the costs of 1 active FF, but the retirement and healthcare costs for 3 other guys, a 40 year old, a 60 year old and an 80 year old, their spouses and dependents. That is the long term cost problem for states, cities and local communities that have remained the same size for the 100 years or maybe have even shrunk and lost most of their business/manufacturing tax base.

This works across the board for every public employee.

Last edited by MulletLoad; 11-05-2012 at 09:28..
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Old 11-05-2012, 09:29   #184
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Sounds like this is a problem of bad management. If the fedgov allocated a one time grant why did someone hire 14 full time employees that were only temporarily funded. When the union asked for higher wages why did management agree when the funds were not available? The Chief or board should have used the funds to upgrade equipment and facilities and keep volunteer firemen.
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Old 11-05-2012, 10:09   #185
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Communities get the services they can afford. As a matter of fact, almost 75% of FF in the US are volunteers.

And i would venture to say that most of those do it in order to serve, not to show off.
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Old 11-05-2012, 15:08   #186
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
I don't have to get off my ass and ask, I can just text some of the on call surgeons and ER docs, while sitting on my ass.

Obtuse is proclaiming that in order to receive quality services, the providers must be unionized, public employees.
So, what did they say? I'd like to meet a surgeon or ER physician that wouldn't prefer to have a defibrillator, IV access, life-saving medication etc administered several minutes sooner if he or she needed it! They can afford those taxes too, and probably complain a little less about them.
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Old 11-05-2012, 19:34   #187
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So, what did they say? I'd like to meet a surgeon or ER physician that wouldn't prefer to have a defibrillator, IV access, life-saving medication etc administered several minutes sooner if he or she needed it! They can afford those taxes too, and probably complain a little less about them.
They said they aren't voting for the renewal tax or the new one either.
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Old 11-05-2012, 20:11   #188
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Seems like a perfect opportunity to revert to the voluntary basis.
When I started out in law enforcement I worked a small rural county that had almost nothing but all local voluntary firemen.

And they were very good. The community loved them and had every reason to.

The night the center of the town caught fire one of the senior firemen saved the life of a new member.
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Old 11-05-2012, 20:12   #189
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Pay the Firefighters

Would you feel the same way if I demanded *you* give me your product and talent for free? That's what you're asking these firefighters to do. They provide a valuable service. Pay them. I'm not a public servant--I run my own business, just like you--but I pay my taxes for cops and firefighters happily, and they're union. I'm tired of public employees being bashed and belittled as thugs and leeches simply because they want to get paid a fair wage--or at all--for the valuable work they do.
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Old 11-05-2012, 20:17   #190
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Lots of feathers ruffled here. I trust the guys/gals we have on local depts. I have more then passing idea of training, have talked to some about fires,mistakes made, new directions of training. (I like to keep slightly current) I was never a FF but EMS.

Rural areas we can't afford/really don't NEED full time FF/EMS/etc. Most folks take care of themselves, neighbors. Lets see 5 RNs (not LPN) 2 EMTs (not counting me as I am retired) 4 miles from me.
Do you know EMTs can start IVs,defib, some meds...etc with Dr. approval. (even when I was one)
The days of "Load and go" are even older then Dragon. (true sometimes it was best option)
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Old 11-05-2012, 20:35   #191
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They said they aren't voting for the renewal tax or the new one either.
Ha. How does that go? Oh yeah, proof or it didn't happen. I may be young, but not born yesterday. No medical professional in their right mind would turn away that level of care at a reasonable cost. Sure, $500 a year is a lot, depending on your income. I seriously doubt the average taxpayer is going to be shelling out anywhere near that. We'll all be laughing when your average taxpayer decides they do want Johnny and Roy coming to save them.

By the way, EMT-Paramedics perform those interventions just mentioned. That's what a paid fire program with fire paramedics buys you. The progression goes as such: First Responder, EMT-Basic and then EMT-Paramedic. Volunteers are typically trained to the First Responder level, which takes about 2 months to complete at 2 classroom days a week. Basic typically takes one semester beyond First Responder of training. Paramedic requires that and a two year associate degree. That's not even counting the fire courses. I have just under three years invested in my training. And once more...you get what you pay for.
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:16   #192
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I worked as a paid paramedic for 10 years in upstate NY first at a hybrid volly/paid squad, then on a commercial ambulance.

The unionized firefighters I worked alongside were some of the laziest, unmotivated slack jobs I've ever worked with. They had EMS response thrust on them (Fire Medic program) and were not one bit shy about displaying their displeasure at losing quality TV time.

They eventually were able to staff their own ALS ambulance, and were notorious for **** like showing up at calls with empty oxygen tanks, left their intubation kit at the station, etc.

There were other hybrid ambulance squads in that area as well, and all had significantly higher motivation, standards, and work ethic, than the union members.

The "commercial" service, while running nursing home calls too, provided ALS response to three counties using aggressive system-status management, and had top-notch constantly-maintained equipment. To characterize every commercial service as a "band-aid bus" is wrong.

I now work as an RN in a local trauma center NC. Sad to say, I see much of the same here as well: Union workers are slack and entitled, "paid" non-union EMS staff are usually high quality, and volunteers are (usually) very motivated.
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Old 11-05-2012, 21:18   #193
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Except what you had before didn't have the training, credentials or experience, and you didn't pay to get it.

Past acts being the leading indicator of future behavior and all that.
You mean training similar to that which allowed the dozen or so NorCal firefighters to watch a man drown about a year ago?

I'm being facetious to some degree.
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Old 11-06-2012, 04:21   #194
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Certified, how long (and why) did your area have a paid Fire Chief? Was (is) he also the Fire Marshall?
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Old 11-06-2012, 07:05   #195
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Originally Posted by Electrikkoolaid View Post
I worked as a paid paramedic for 10 years in upstate NY first at a hybrid volly/paid squad, then on a commercial ambulance.

The unionized firefighters I worked alongside were some of the laziest, unmotivated slack jobs I've ever worked with. They had EMS response thrust on them (Fire Medic program) and were not one bit shy about displaying their displeasure at losing quality TV time.

They eventually were able to staff their own ALS ambulance, and were notorious for **** like showing up at calls with empty oxygen tanks, left their intubation kit at the station, etc.

There were other hybrid ambulance squads in that area as well, and all had significantly higher motivation, standards, and work ethic, than the union members.

The "commercial" service, while running nursing home calls too, provided ALS response to three counties using aggressive system-status management, and had top-notch constantly-maintained equipment. To characterize every commercial service as a "band-aid bus" is wrong.

I now work as an RN in a local trauma center NC. Sad to say, I see much of the same here as well: Union workers are slack and entitled, "paid" non-union EMS staff are usually high quality, and volunteers are (usually) very motivated.
I've experienced the opposite. So, in my experience and travels, it varies from location to location.

Years ago I worked for a private ambulance company and my coworkers were the most unmotivated, obese bunch around. I often wanted an extra LifePack in case one of the medics decided to go into cardiac arrest. And this was before EMT-Basics were trained in AED.

Here in my region, EMS is fire based, and yes unionized. But it's a right to work state. The system here is one of the best in the nation. Departments are well managed, and some have used SAFER grants to hire more people. Being well managed, the localities have kept people on board after grant funding ran out. It's called planning and budgeting. Something the poster's department didn't have.


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Old 11-06-2012, 07:27   #196
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There is a difference between stopping blood borne pathogens and being tested to do so. The one you had likely stopped them, they just werent sold/labeled as such.
The problem would be if an employee contracted something while using those gloves. Theres always the possibility that workers comp could deny the claim and drag the claim out. That equals more costs to the employee who has to pay out of pocket.

Having worked as a supervisor this could also make you a liable party in a law suite for not providing proper PPE to prevent an exposure. Not to mention OSHA fines.


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Old 11-06-2012, 07:27   #197
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I live in the country and have great fire insurance.....don't risk a life to save my home. We have great volunteer fire fighters but I have no interest to go through all the required training and red tape. I applaud those who do!
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:09   #198
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The problem would be if an employee contracted something while using those gloves. Theres always the possibility that workers comp could deny the claim and drag the claim out. That equals more costs to the employee who has to pay out of pocket.

Having worked as a supervisor this could also make you a liable party in a law suite for not providing proper PPE to prevent an exposure. Not to mention OSHA fines.


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I never said it was a good idea to use non tested/labeled product. I merely pointed out the difference (or lack thereof).

You can also take it further. Why not use double packed sterile gloves? That is much safer to the patient. Also, why allow latex? Some people have allergies to latex and that is one of the reasons to use nitrile gloves. Where do you want to stop?

FWIW we use double packed, sterile nitrile gloves.


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Twice a week? 14 times a month?
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Old 11-06-2012, 08:58   #199
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By the way, EMT-Paramedics perform those interventions just mentioned. That's what a paid fire program with fire paramedics buys you. The progression goes as such: First Responder, EMT-Basic and then EMT-Paramedic. Volunteers are typically trained to the First Responder level, which takes about 2 months to complete at 2 classroom days a week. Basic typically takes one semester beyond First Responder of training. Paramedic requires that and a two year associate degree. That's not even counting the fire courses. I have just under three years invested in my training. And once more...you get what you pay for.
Just for the record, volunteers are just as able to attain the certifications. We've got EMT's in our department, along with Pro Board Certified members from Haz Mat ops and FF1 to Fire Officers and Fire Inspectors. No pay involved.
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Old 11-06-2012, 09:28   #200
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Just for the record, volunteers are just as able to attain the certifications. We've got EMT's in our department, along with Pro Board Certified members from Haz Mat ops and FF1 to Fire Officers and Fire Inspectors. No pay involved.

yep. My FD is 100% volunteer, and we interact with paid FF at the county level. There is absolutely no difference in training, qualifications, recerts...since they all do the same training.

For medical it's a bit different. Most towns have 1st responders and EMT-Bs only, some towns have volley medics, all towns are also covered by a paid service of EMT-B driver + EMT-P on a bus...and every single (official) vehicle with the "star of life" on it has a defibrillator on it, and everyone that touches that vehicle (ie, takes it off the lot) must be certified on CPR/AED.
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