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Old 11-05-2012, 02:07   #151
wprebeck
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I have personally brought, and searched, 78 people in an 8 hour shift. I've seen over 100 brought in. You, being the know everything type you try to portray, so understand that its imperative to search every incoming prisoner, right?

Oh, and I work at a jail, not a prison. Big difference - trouble yourself to learn what and why.

Then, there's the shakedowns which require around 30 people to be searched, plus their personal items, including beds, clothes, and shoes. We also have medical emergencies that occur regularly, some of which involve blood. Let's not forget about fights. We had three officers sent to the ER just this week on my shift, in two seperate incidents. The first one required a court ordered blood draw from the inmate to ensure he didn't have HIV or hep, since he bled on the officers.

As was mentioned above, you have already made up your mind about unions and nothing anyone says will change it. Like I said, you're the perfect example of class warfare for the liberals (of which I am not). The pompous, greedy, and arrogant wealthy man who only works to get more money. You made a pile, and retired once. You're only doing again for more....nothing wrong with that at all. Your attitude toward other people with less money is the issue. You despise them, and that hate exudes from every post.

It must suck to be you sometimes.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:05   #152
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Originally Posted by Toxie View Post
One mistake here:

He's NOT interested in the truth. He has AREADY made up his mind that unions are composed of greedy, useless people. He has ALREADY made up his mind that the paid F/R unit is of NO use. You cannot change his mind - there is no point for discussion. He's just running his mouth to gather some moral justification. Three sides to every story - His side, the union's side and then the truth. He is WAY too emotionally involved to have any kind of credible objective viewpoint here.

I would say that he is probably more then a little red-assed that he can't play Fire Fighter anymore.
^^^^Very true. Especially the last sentence.
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Old 11-05-2012, 04:28   #153
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I notice none of you will touch on exactly what makes you "conservatives" different from DU liberals. Once again the only difference I see is what cows are sacred. You seem to have just as many, just different, sacred cows.




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Old 11-05-2012, 04:35   #154
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The purpose of government is to make more government. Spending tax dollars to give grants to hire more government employees is quite common. They know that small towns will use the money to hire people and then not want to give them up when the grant runs out. Teachers, firemen, cops, lots of grants to hire them, not so many to keep them. Sounds like your little community took the bait...............
Yeeeup! Absolultley. Spot on analysis.

Any council that runs up staff based on a one time gov't grant payout either had a little empire building in mind ( a FT fire department plus increased taxes) or were complete idiots.

I'm betting game plan.

Obamacare was based on this exact same premise. Early "giveme's" such as dependent coverage and no pre-existing conditions. Increased taxes after the re-election. Democrats are betting nobody will want to give up the initial promo.

A fish will tell you that the hook, once bit, is very hard to get out the of the mouth.

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:45   #155
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What really saddens me is so many people don't get it. The us is spending at an unstainable rate. We are nearly on par with Greece on a GDP to debt ratio. We are second worst of 1st world countries.

I realize fire/Leo/military/social security/medicare/Medicaid/welfare/infrastructure/pork are all sacred cows. But how so you decided what to do with all these cows when there is not enough feed/grain/grass so that they can all eat like they want to. Do you reduce the diet of all of them? Shoot some? Let them slowly starve.

You guy don't seem to understand the govt spending to GDP problem.




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Old 11-05-2012, 04:46   #156
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Someone finally hit on it.

There is a very contingent of "conservatives" on this forum that look at taxes just like liberals with the exception that they think THEY shouldnt have to pay taxes and THEIR sacred cow should be spared.

Here is how GT taxation works. Everyone making less than you isnt carrying their fair share. Everyone making more than you isnt paying their fair share.

There seems to be this idea that people time, money, property is not theirs.

What is truely separating the "conservatives" on GT from "liberals" on DU? I am really trying to figure out the taxation and personal liberty differences between the two groups? The only thing I can see at the moment is not if there are sacred cows; it is just which cow is sacred and not to be touched.
This post confuses income with taxation.

Truth is, half of this country effectively pays no Federal income tax. That half likes it that way. Doesn't want to change it. One of our two major political parties even exploits it (guess which one) because they want more tax revenue but don't want to upset the base that effectively doesn't pay. So they demand that the "rich" pay more. More Federal. More State. More Medicare. More property taxes.

Why not make it an "equal" basis? Everybody "pulling together". Flat tax across the board for all incomes above poverty level. Everybody pays an equal percentage. Every voter has "skin" in the game. If they demand more social services, they pay more taxes. That sounds like a fair, "American" concept, doesn't it?

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Old 11-05-2012, 04:54   #157
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What really saddens me is so many people don't get it. The us is spending at an unstainable rate. We are nearly on par with Greece on a GDP to debt ratio. We are second worst of 1st world countries.

I realize fire/Leo/military/social security/medicare/Medicaid/welfare/infrastructure/pork are all sacred cows. But how so you decided what to do with all these cows when there is not enough feed/grain/grass so that they can all eat like they want to. Do you reduce the diet of all of them? Shoot some? Let them slowly starve.

You guy don't seem to understand the govt spending to GDP problem.




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Good post.


Answer is you cull the herd.

You cut.

As you noted, the country cannot sustain it's current level of spending. This is true on a Federal, State and Local level.
We are overspending into financial oblivion.

We must also recognize that Public Service employment is not a "jobs" program. It does not exist to keep people employed. Governments must respond to the ups and downs of economics just like private enterprise does. Government fails to do that and employees tend to try to keep their empires until things get better. That's how governments go bankrupt.
Alabama has municipalities in (or approaching) bankruptcy.
California too.
These are just the first stones of the coming landslide.


We must live within our means.
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:42   #158
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That's not scare tactics, that's just the reality of the situation. And just because you think it served you fine for 50 years doesn't mean it actually did and again, just because you haven't heard of someone dying due to incompetence doesn't mean it doesn't happen all the time.
I think 50 years is a fair enough window of time to make a judgement call.

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Besides that, take off your blinders for a minute and think about it. Who do you want working on you, someone with more training and experience that does the job constantly or someone that goes to an hour long training meeting once a week? And yes, most volunteers don't have the training and experience of guys that work in paid departments.
Who do I want working for me? I want the guy with passion for what he does. I'll take that over all the training you can throw at a union clock puncher. I'll take it over talent too.

I want the guy who enjoys the crap so much he wants to give up his time off to do it. I don't want the guy who needs a union to cover for him.

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If volunteer departments were "just as good as" every city in America would be using volunteers but they aren't and there is a reason for that.
If paid departments were "better than", every city in America would be using them.

See how that works?
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:42   #159
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I think some of you are confusing some of the issues here. I'm not in favor of supporting a union, IAFF or UAW doesn't matter, they've all out grown their purpose and have morphed into something they were never intended to be.

I also support necessary cuts, just not when it comes to public safety. Parks and rec programs are a huge drain on government resources, most government agencies are way to top heavy, they need to be trimmed. I've personally attended conferences that were taxpayer funded and were basically nothing more than party trips, they need to stop. I've seen councilmen and administrators attend training conferences in Hawaii, huge waste. By all means, cut the waste.

What I'm not in favor of is cutting public safety at the responder level. I average eight to ten calls per shift in a remote, rural county. That's eight to ten people that called 911 for some kind of emergency, sometimes they weren't true emergencies and they didn't need me but sometimes they were. When your house is on fire or you're loved one is sick and dying you want the best showing up to deal with your crisis. Cut that and you're going to see property lost and people dying, it's just a simple fact. Same thing for cops. They spend a great deal of there time answering bogus calls but when the SHTF you want the best showing up, not the lowest bidder.

If public safety in your area isn't getting it done then by all means, please demand change. Demand better people and more accountability but don't demand cuts. For every budget cut to save money on equipment, training and front line personnel is going to only do one thing, make you and other innocent people suffer and/or die needlessly.

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Old 11-05-2012, 05:46   #160
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Originally Posted by DaleGribble View Post
I think some of you are confusing some of the issues here. I'm not in favor of supporting a union, IAFF or UAW doesn't matter, they've all out grown their purpose and have morphed into something they were never intended to be.

I also support necessary cuts, just not when it comes to public safety. Parks and rec programs are a huge drain on government resources, most government agencies are way to top heavy, they need to be trimmed. I've personally attended conferences that were taxpayer funded and were basically nothing more than party trips, they need to stop. I've seen councilmen and administrators attend training conferences in Hawaii, huge waste. By all means, cut the waste.

What I'm not in favor of is cutting public safety at the responder level. I average eight to ten calls per shift in a remote, rural county. That's eight to ten people that called 911 for some kind of emergency, sometimes they weren't true emergencies and they didn't need me but sometimes they were. When your house is on fire or you're loved one is sick and dying you want the best showing up to deal with your crisis. Cut that and you're going to see property lost and people dying, it's just a simple fact. Same thing for cops. They spend a great deal of there time answering bogus calls but when the SHTF you want the best showing up, not the lowest bidder.

If public safety in your area isn't getting it done then by all means, please demand change. Demand better people and more accountability but don't demand cuts. For every budget cut to save money on equipment, training and front line personnel is going to only do one thing, make you and other innocent people suffer and/or die needlessly.
None of these folks care about that. They want more for nothing.


" I was wondering what would break first; your spirit or your body."
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Old 11-05-2012, 05:47   #161
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Missed this the first time around.

Ok, here's a classic example of what I'm talking about. You, as a layperson (not meaning that disrespectfully) think a private for profit ambulance is the equivalent of a tax payer funded ambulance. That's understandable but highly inaccurate and I'll explain why.

In the state of SC (where I work) the state has a minimum requirement for ambulance staffing. That minimum requirement is one basic EMT and a driver. A basic EMT has the minimum amount of EMS training required by law to actually be an EMT. They can't provide advanced care like cardiac monitoring and treatment, they can't administer life saving medications, start IV's or pleural decompress. They can basically bandage, ventilate, compress (CPR) and transport. Most private ambulance companies staff their ambulances at the minimum level. They do that because for the vast majority of their calls that's all they need because they turn a profit by transporting people to dialysis, hospital discharge patients and transporting pt's to routine Dr. appointments. Their ambulances are typically stocked only to the basic level. If you have a heart attack and a private ambulance shows up you will receive oxygen and a ride. Sometimes the private companies actually do the right thing and actually call 911 so we can try and intercept them to provide a higher level of care.

Now, my tax payer funded municipal service has an ALS license. That means we have to have paramedics and all the required ALS equipment on our rigs. We have training standards we have to meet that BLS private services don't have to adhere to.


Now, at my tax payer funded service if you have a heart attack and I show up you'll get oxygen, bilateral IV's, cardiac 12 lead monitoring and interpretation and the necessary medicines to keep you alive and minimize ischemic damage to your heart. Most importantly, my tax payer funded equipment allows me to send my ECG findings to the hospital so they can have a cath lab team waiting on us when we roll in and you'll go straight to a cath lab, saving time and heart muscle.
This post is really hilarious.

Your basic assertion is that the private ambulance service will only give me a ride to bill it but your "taxpayer funded" service will give the proper treatment.

That would mark the first time in history that a unionized, taxpayer funded service has a higher level of accountability than private industry.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:07   #162
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This post is really hilarious.

Your basic assertion is that the private ambulance service will only give me a ride to bill it but your "taxpayer funded" service will give the proper treatment.

That would mark the first time in history that a unionized, taxpayer funded service has a higher level of accountability than private industry.
See, now you're just being intentionally obtuse because you know your position is not grounded in reality. Now I'm seriously beginning to wonder what ax you really do have to grind because Im beginning to think you have ulterior motives here.

Here's something for you to do. Go ask any E.R. Nurse or Paramedic about the differences between for profit services and municipal services and see what you hear. Seriously, get off your ass and go ask. You'll see that every word I've told you is true.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:18   #163
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See, now you're just being intentionally obtuse because you know your position is not grounded in reality. Now I'm seriously beginning to wonder what ax you really do have to grind because Im beginning to think you have ulterior motives here.

Here's something for you to do. Go ask any E.R. Nurse or Paramedic about the differences between for profit services and municipal services and see what you hear. Seriously, get off your ass and go ask. You'll see that every word I've told you is true.
Up until last month, my wife worked in HR for a municipality and was responsible for the public safety HR issues (that means FD and PD). The stories I have heard. Of all the employees in the city, the FD was by far the most difficult to deal with, refusing to play by the rules, and manipulated pay (via trading schedules around so they were working as much on time and half as they could). Then they got smart and brought in FPPA. All the old guys started getting booted. They no longer got the city pension plan (they wanted to double dip on FPPA pension and city pension) buy the city transferred assets to FPPA and told them to have fun. No more city pension.

A bunch of them (along with two others in the city) were fired for illegal steroids (some were selling, some just taking).

So what exactly am I supposed to ask about?


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Old 11-05-2012, 06:20   #164
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None of these folks care about that. They want more for nothing.


" I was wondering what would break first; your spirit or your body."
Actually, I'm just asking for what I had before.

If the department needs training, I'll pay.

If the department needs equipment, I'll pay.

What I won't pay for if I can help it, is to fund a bloated union pay and benefits package.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:22   #165
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Actually, I'm just asking for what I had before.

If the department needs training, I'll pay.

If the department needs equipment, I'll pay.

What I won't pay for if I can help it, is to fund a bloated union pay and benefits package.
You get what you pay for.


" I was wondering what would break first; your spirit or your body."
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:24   #166
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See, now you're just being intentionally obtuse because you know your position is not grounded in reality. Now I'm seriously beginning to wonder what ax you really do have to grind because Im beginning to think you have ulterior motives here.

Here's something for you to do. Go ask any E.R. Nurse or Paramedic about the differences between for profit services and municipal services and see what you hear. Seriously, get off your ass and go ask. You'll see that every word I've told you is true.
I don't have to get off my ass and ask, I can just text some of the on call surgeons and ER docs, while sitting on my ass.

Obtuse is proclaiming that in order to receive quality services, the providers must be unionized, public employees.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:25   #167
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I have personally brought, and searched, 78 people in an 8 hour shift. I've seen over 100 brought in. You, being the know everything type you try to portray, so understand that its imperative to search every incoming prisoner, right?

Oh, and I work at a jail, not a prison. Big difference - trouble yourself to learn what and why.

Then, there's the shakedowns which require around 30 people to be searched, plus their personal items, including beds, clothes, and shoes. We also have medical emergencies that occur regularly, some of which involve blood. Let's not forget about fights. We had three officers sent to the ER just this week on my shift, in two seperate incidents. The first one required a court ordered blood draw from the inmate to ensure he didn't have HIV or hep, since he bled on the officers.

As was mentioned above, you have already made up your mind about unions and nothing anyone says will change it. Like I said, you're the perfect example of class warfare for the liberals (of which I am not). The pompous, greedy, and arrogant wealthy man who only works to get more money. You made a pile, and retired once. You're only doing again for more....nothing wrong with that at all. Your attitude toward other people with less money is the issue. You despise them, and that hate exudes from every post.

It must suck to be you sometimes.
Actually, no. Its pretty good. Thanks for your concern.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:26   #168
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You get what you pay for.


" I was wondering what would break first; your spirit or your body."
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:32   #169
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See, now you're just being intentionally obtuse because you know your position is not grounded in reality. Now I'm seriously beginning to wonder what ax you really do have to grind because Im beginning to think you have ulterior motives here.

Here's something for you to do. Go ask any E.R. Nurse or Paramedic about the differences between for profit services and municipal services and see what you hear. Seriously, get off your ass and go ask. You'll see that every word I've told you is true.
Actually, I think CF is taking a very defensible position. Assuming what you say about ALS v BLS is true, what good does any of it do the municipality if the union is pricing that capability out of the market?

I also think your argument assumes that the for-profit company absolutely would not add ALS to its capability portfolio if the market demanded it, or that the state/county isn't intentionally withholding ALS licenses from all but taxpayer-funded departments.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:32   #170
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This post is really hilarious.

Your basic assertion is that the private ambulance service will only give me a ride to bill it but your "taxpayer funded" service will give the proper treatment.

That would mark the first time in history that a unionized, taxpayer funded service has a higher level of accountability than private industry.
Better mark it down, cert. You've now seen history made.

You need to let go of your emotional responses here. The venom you're spewing is clouding you perception. You've chosen to equate issues that simply aren't compatible.

Dale is totally correct on the differences in training, capability and oversight between a volly and FT EMS system. Totally separate from whether or not a union is good, and your dismissal and ridicule of his points is foolish.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:33   #171
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We get it.

Unions=bad.

Everything you've ever done=great.

Even if a large majority of those union members wake up and go to work just like you do, they're still bad.

I'm glad we have unions here, I can't speak to where you're from...but here, Christ. The powers that be do enough and STILL fail to follow a contract.

A former county commissioner (now in club fed) was quoted as saying that if he could he would pay everyone in my former dept 8$ an hour. Hmm...the guy never set foot in the facility I worked in....not once...yet he made that judgment?


Good luck and I wish you the best.

"I was wondering what would break first; your spirit or your body."
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:36   #172
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Actually, I'm just asking for what I had before.

If the department needs training, I'll pay.

If the department needs equipment, I'll pay.

What I won't pay for if I can help it, is to fund a bloated union pay and benefits package.
Except what you had before didn't have the training, credentials or experience, and you didn't pay to get it.

Past acts being the leading indicator of future behavior and all that.
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Old 11-05-2012, 06:51   #173
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I also support necessary cuts, just not when it comes to public safety. needlessly.
As I have said, I can't tell a liberal from a conservative. The only difference is which cow is sacred. You have just shown us that this is a sacred cow not to be touched. But get rid of those damn parks. Who needs parks, swimming pools, sports leagues for kids? Kill that cow because it is not sacred yet "public safety" is a sacred cow.


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Old 11-05-2012, 06:52   #174
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Except what you had before didn't have the training, credentials or experience, and you didn't pay to get it.

Past acts being the leading indicator of future behavior and all that.
A paid professional dept (which I am in favor of) is not equal to union. They are not synonyms.


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Old 11-05-2012, 07:01   #175
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...


What I'm not in favor of is cutting public safety at the responder level. I average eight to ten calls per shift in a remote, rural county. That's eight to ten people that called 911 for some kind of emergency, sometimes they weren't true emergencies and they didn't need me but sometimes they were. When your house is on fire or you're loved one is sick and dying you want the best showing up to deal with your crisis. Cut that and you're going to see property lost and people dying, it's just a simple fact. Same thing for cops. They spend a great deal of there time answering bogus calls but when the SHTF you want the best showing up, not the lowest bidder.
The largest problem with is is, the people who are calling for service are often (more often than not) very disconnected with how those services are funded. I don't have your credentials, but I pay attention to ER/EMS where I live. Our firehouse has on display (out front of station1 and on the web) the number of calls our dept responds to, and the nature of those calls. I don't have the raw #s, but more than 20% of all EMS calls that originated from the caller (say versus calls initiated by LE or other on scene 1st responders) are not true emergencies, and those calls could have been resolved by other means.

In NH there is a big issue with their Dept of Fish & Wildlife doing rescues. IIRC, the people that pay the bulk of the fees to sustain that agency (hunting / fishing/game permits) are calling on search/rescue 16% of the time. They have begun billing folks in instances where negligence is apparent, and if there are no fatalities to victims.

People should not have to think about how much a hospital ride is going to cost, but really, how many frequent riders do you get? Sometimes here the EMS crew knows when they show up the patient will have a small travel bag packed and ready to go.


It is my personal opinion that we have strayed to far from personal responsibility, to a point where .gov is being stretched thin to provide services that stem from a lifetime of poor choices.

I got dollars for donuts you are now rolling with a bariatric stretcher...
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Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42