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Old 11-04-2012, 08:13   #126
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Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
Relax. A man like you can pay a tax like that.

If you don't like it, do something about it. Go out and find enough people like you to go to the polls and vote a different approach. If you're so hip on volunteer F.D., fine. Convince other people. Of course... if most of the voters are property owners who get all bent over the portion of their property tax that goes to fire services, then you'll get your way. If the majority of voters are not so inclined to go ballistic over such penny ante stuff, then you will have the happy opportunity to learn to accept what you cannot change. What's not to like about that? Hum?
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:43   #127
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I doubt you have a real union I am thinking your state is a right to work state.

What does that mean?

Texas has some unionized labor and Texas is a right to work state.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:49   #128
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I've read the thread as it stood when the response was posted. The complaint, etc. boiled down to the same kabuki posturing protesting outrage at whatever it is that chaffs you.

As to additional tax and value received, it's irrelevant. Many Americans pay taxes for a dod that gives them exactly zero value. Many Americans pay for a fed. govt. that bails out wingtippers on wall street, from which they receive not value at all. Why should anyone care when you puff and blow over your bruised wallet? It's irrelevant. It just doesn't matter.
Good grief that's a stupid post.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:50   #129
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What does that mean?

Texas has some unionized labor and Texas is a right to work state.
Same here in Florida.

It puzzles me that someone who thinks he's worth a six digit income also thinks he's entitled to free emergency response services. What next, volunteer surgeons?
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:12   #130
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Same here in Florida.

It puzzles me that someone who thinks he's worth a six digit income also thinks he's entitled to free emergency response services. What next, volunteer surgeons?
I'd be willing to bet he'd very willingly go to a fee-based system (i.e., pay for the cost of the call-out if you need them). I'd bet he'd pay for a surgeon should he need one.

There's a difference between carrying your own weight/paying your debts and expecting others to pay for you.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:48   #131
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Six pages of comments on a local problem. Union demonetize about something it does not have control of. The citizens that sit on the board have 100% control of the district money. They have 100% control of the hiring or firing. It is solely their decision to have career or volunteer firefighters based on their tax receipts.

They received grant money to hire 14 guys for two years. That money is running out and if they do not have the funds the guys will have to go. They ask the tax payer to keep them on. I bet they would have done the same even if they were not evil Socialist union people.

CF does not want a massive tax increase. Who could blame him, it is not relevant that CF may have more money than others. It is still his money. How many others in his District can not afford a tax increase.

We applied for this same grant. As Union President I asked the Board for six guys. They applied for three guys instead. With three guys they stand a better chance of staying on after the grant do to attrition of the current staff.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:28   #132
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CF does not want a massive tax increase. Who could blame him, it is not relevant that CF may have more money than others. It is still his money. How many others in his District can not afford a tax increase.
Someone finally hit on it.

There is a very contingent of "conservatives" on this forum that look at taxes just like liberals with the exception that they think THEY shouldnt have to pay taxes and THEIR sacred cow should be spared.

Here is how GT taxation works. Everyone making less than you isnt carrying their fair share. Everyone making more than you isnt paying their fair share.

There seems to be this idea that people time, money, property is not theirs.

What is truely separating the "conservatives" on GT from "liberals" on DU? I am really trying to figure out the taxation and personal liberty differences between the two groups? The only thing I can see at the moment is not if there are sacred cows; it is just which cow is sacred and not to be touched.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:56   #133
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Six pages of comments on a local problem. Union demonetize about something it does not have control of. The citizens that sit on the board have 100% control of the district money. They have 100% control of the hiring or firing. It is solely their decision to have career or volunteer firefighters based on their tax receipts.

They received grant money to hire 14 guys for two years. That money is running out and if they do not have the funds the guys will have to go. They ask the tax payer to keep them on. I bet they would have done the same even if they were not evil Socialist union people.

CF does not want a massive tax increase. Who could blame him, it is not relevant that CF may have more money than others. It is still his money. How many others in his District can not afford a tax increase.

We applied for this same grant. As Union President I asked the Board for six guys. They applied for three guys instead. With three guys they stand a better chance of staying on after the grant do to attrition of the current staff.
Our services were fine before. Now, the Chief is in the media threatening a drop in services if they don't receive this new tax money. But things were fine before, services haven't increased. Only payroll has increased. Not so thinly veiled threats.

I don't have an answer as to why they accepted the grant and hired the people. I suspect there were some within the department who wanted to move it to a paid department so they could quit their day jobs and become paid firemen.

I wasn't born yesterday. If I'm expected to cough up another $500 this election cycle I will be expected to cough up much more in the future under threat of service reductions. I won't be held hostage.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:15   #134
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If the gloves didn't stop blood, instead of pissing and moaning and complaining to the union you could have simply gone and bought a box and stuffed a handful in your pocket each day. A big box costs like $5 and would probably last you a year. You doc would have likely just given you a box for the asking if you had explained it.

But instead you endangered your own life by using them?

If it happens again, PM me and I'll send you a box. Your d-baggery doesn't really bother me.

But since you mentioned it, if everyone was "forced to use them for months" and you're up to your elbows in infectious bodily fluids every day, how many people contracted HIV or HBV in that time period since the gloves just let the pathogens through?

Again, you miss the point. The agency is required by both contract (that they willingly signed, mind you - it's not like we can strike, so they delay and delay during contract talks) and OSHA standards to provide certain items. We are not supposed to be forced to buy items that our agency is mandated to provide.

Of course, you and your "**** you, I got mine" attitude don't matter. You'd have been a perfect robber baron, about 100 years or so ago. That's not intended as a compliment, either.

I've a feeling you just can't compensate for something, and go out of your way here on GT to berate people less wealthy than you, just to make yourself feel better. In the meantime, you send your kid off to exclusive schools, and tell yourself that because you can pay your own way, the world is a better place to be. Good luck with that. While I don't usually agree with Bruce, I gotta say - you're a dick who cares for no one but yourself. When your wife finally gets around to leaving, I hope your attorney is better than hers. Else, I think you'll find yourself in the shoes of those whom you denigrate regularly.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:18   #135
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Oh, and do you have any clue how many gloves we go through in a day? Didn't think so. Depending on the position, one may search anywhere from a dozen to nearly 100 people per day, not counting fights.

I noticed you again belittled the job of someone in public safety. Not a big surprise - but, you're too much of a sissy to do it yourself, so someone has to. Come and play with us, big boy - if you're not too scared. MSNBC has been profiling my agency recently; they've done three episodes, with four more to come. Perhaps watching those better than yourself do a thankless job might change your outlook. Then again, to you, Mother Teresa was a chump.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:20   #136
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If they are like many VFD the chance to get some full time guys to take the burden of the daily chores and common calls out of the hands of a shrinking volunteer pool is hard to resist.

Many of the Departments in my immediate are are combination paid, vol, or paid per call. The decision to hire comes out of necessity. Last year 12% of our calls not one single volunteer responded to. The two career guys handled on their own or with help from other departments. The Chief also responds any time day or night even for regular EMS calls.

I hear total volunteer department in the area have calls and some times they never respond at all. If you have a Volunteer FD in your community your taxes are cheaper but you have no guarantee of immediate service.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:30   #137
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I live in a 150 year old small town adjacent to a major metropolitan area. Our fire department is a all volunteer force with a 5 minute response time. Our police department consists of 32 officers who are all additionally trained as EMTs or firemen. It's cost effective and works for us.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:45   #138
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Again, you miss the point. The agency is required by both contract (that they willingly signed, mind you - it's not like we can strike, so they delay and delay during contract talks) and OSHA standards to provide certain items. We are not supposed to be forced to buy items that our agency is mandated to provide.
So I'll ask again: Did anyone contract a blood borne disease in the months you had to use the food service gloves?

It has been explained to you that the latex food service gloves and medical exam gloves differ only in the label and certification process.

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Of course, you and your "**** you, I got mine" attitude don't matter. You'd have been a perfect robber baron, about 100 years or so ago. That's not intended as a compliment, either.
What does this have to do with gloves, unions or fire protection services?

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I've a feeling you just can't compensate for something, and go out of your way here on GT to berate people less wealthy than you, just to make yourself feel better. In the meantime, you send your kid off to exclusive schools, and tell yourself that because you can pay your own way, the world is a better place to be. Good luck with that. While I don't usually agree with Bruce, I gotta say - you're a dick who cares for no one but yourself. When your wife finally gets around to leaving, I hope your attorney is better than hers. Else, I think you'll find yourself in the shoes of those whom you denigrate regularly.
I'm trying to pick through your pathetic little rant here to figure out exactly what you're trying to say.

I don't berate people for not being affluent. I do berate people who think others owe them something. The world is definetely a better place when you pay your own way. Yes, my kids go to private schools. I care about myself and my family first but am a very generous and charitable person. My wife and I are happily married. My attorney is very good. I have enough shoes.

Did I answer satisfactorily or do you have more d-bag rants to direct at me?

What I gather from the body of your posts here is exactly how I expect union employees to respond to people who oppose unions so you've pretty much validated my perspective.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:49   #139
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There is more than one way to skin a cat. GVFlyer community the VFD was not able to provide the service. They chose PSO to supplement their Emergency Services.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:51   #140
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Oh, and do you have any clue how many gloves we go through in a day? Didn't think so. Depending on the position, one may search anywhere from a dozen to nearly 100 people per day, not counting fights.
100 people per day? How long is this shift? 10 hours? You're searching and swapping gloves once every 6 minutes with no breaks? I bet that gets old.

200 gloves per day would be too many for you to purchase yourself, I agree.

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I noticed you again belittled the job of someone in public safety.
Where?

Quote:
Not a big surprise - but, you're too much of a sissy to do it yourself, so someone has to.
Were you forced into it? If its so horrible, why do you continue to do it? Find other employment with better gloves.

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Come and play with us, big boy - if you're not too scared. MSNBC has been profiling my agency recently; they've done three episodes, with four more to come. Perhaps watching those better than yourself do a thankless job might change your outlook. Then again, to you, Mother Teresa was a chump.
What is it you do? Work in a prison? Why would I want to do that? Nope, never had the slightest desire to do that. I take it you enjoy it or you wouldn't still be there. More power to you.

I don't understand. Are you like Mother Teresa?
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:53   #141
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We have a huge volunteer house. Some of them practically live there. I doubt they will change that.
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Old 11-04-2012, 13:07   #142
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We have a huge volunteer house. Some of them practically live there. I doubt they will change that.
I watch youtube videos of you guys out east and you have so many at structure fires that it makes my head hurt.

I roll out by myself and hope for help other than auto aid. I might be on the scene ten minutes before the station one guy arrives Fortunately most one room fires I will have out by then.
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Old 11-04-2012, 13:09   #143
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The agency is required by both contract (that they willingly signed, mind you - it's not like we can strike, so they delay and delay during contract talks) and OSHA standards to provide certain items. We are not supposed to be forced to buy items that our agency is mandated to provide.
I agree. That is ridiculous. You have a job where you have the potential to be exposed to deadly pathogens, you have a contract that states the employer will provide necessary safety equipment, and they do not. Providing potentially inferior equipment is likely not what is in the contract. Even if the other gloves may provide the same protection, I can see where requiring approved/tested equipment is necessary.

While I don't see that as an issue requiring a union (I can see ways to fix the issue without the presence of a union), I can see where they can play a role with stubborn (and unfortunately legally-protected) employer. I could definitely see suing them for breach of contract, liability for exposure to deadly pathogens, etc.

The whole thing sounds penny-wise and pound-foolish (what do they think is going to happen when somebody catches HepB or C or HIV or whatever while wearing non-certified PPE- especially when the wrong PPE was supplied? Smells like liability to me).
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Old 11-04-2012, 13:31   #144
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I don't care if our ISO rating drops while we fix this. I'd rather pay Allstate than union idiots.
Non-union professional leach (CCEMT-P) weighing in here.

And what you are failing to consider is the level of service your department provides and it's impact on your community.

"They did fine as an all volunteer department." Bull****! I've been in this business a while and have seen the differences between a well run paid department and a well run volunteer department and the differences are as obvious as night and day.

Volunteer departments have less training, longer response times and do not perform nearly as well as paid departments. I've seen it, I've lived it and I've seen more than one person DIE because of it and that's not an exaggeration.

When you or your loved ones are laying on the floor dying while waiting on the volunteers to get to the station to get a truck and then have guys show up that aren't as proficient with their skills because they don't use them that often, you can feel proud that you saved some money and got rid of those worthless paid firefighters!
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Old 11-04-2012, 14:14   #145
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Smells like liability to me).
Seven figure liability no doubt.
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Old 11-04-2012, 14:33   #146
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Non-union professional leach (CCEMT-P) weighing in here.

And what you are failing to consider is the level of service your department provides and it's impact on your community.

"They did fine as an all volunteer department." Bull****! I've been in this business a while and have seen the differences between a well run paid department and a well run volunteer department and the differences are as obvious as night and day.

Volunteer departments have less training, longer response times and do not perform nearly as well as paid departments. I've seen it, I've lived it and I've seen more than one person DIE because of it and that's not an exaggeration.

When you or your loved ones are laying on the floor dying while waiting on the volunteers to get to the station to get a truck and then have guys show up that aren't as proficient with their skills because they don't use them that often, you can feel proud that you saved some money and got rid of those worthless paid firefighters!
Willing to take that risk. Served us fine for 50 yrs. Been here for 41. Haven't yet heard of anyone dying because the first responders were incompetent.

What else ya got other than scare tactics?

Btw, we also have private emt/paramedic/ambulance services here.
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Old 11-04-2012, 14:56   #147
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Willing to take that risk. Served us fine for 50 yrs. Been here for 41. Haven't yet heard of anyone dying because the first responders were incompetent.

What else ya got other than scare tactics?

Btw, we also have private emt/paramedic/ambulance services here.
That's not scare tactics, that's just the reality of the situation. And just because you think it served you fine for 50 years doesn't mean it actually did and again, just because you haven't heard of someone dying due to incompetence doesn't mean it doesn't happen all the time.

Besides that, take off your blinders for a minute and think about it. Who do you want working on you, someone with more training and experience that does the job constantly or someone that goes to an hour long training meeting once a week? And yes, most volunteers don't have the training and experience of guys that work in paid departments. If volunteer departments were "just as good as" every city in America would be using volunteers but they aren't and there is a reason for that.
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Old 11-04-2012, 16:07   #148
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That's the truth there. I haven't been in this business for long, but as a paramedic for an ambulance service that relies on volunteer and paid firefighters in their own communities, you're shooting yourself in the foot if you think volunteer departments can provide an equal level of service.

Like Gribble, I've also seen people die that could have been saved with the level of training and equipment a paid service can provide. It's not all about fighting fires. In fact, very little of it is.

Don't get me wrong, I thank God we have volunteers in the rural areas. They show up at 3 in the morning when a confused diabetic wants to kick my butt for helping him, or just when it comes to lifting a 400 lb patient even though they already knew what they were in for by the address of said person. It's handy to have someone show up before I can get there and take a set of vitals, give oxygen or get quality CPR started.

That doesn't help much though when they show up on the scene of an emergency that requires immediate advanced life support or the person will literally die. Say you or someone you care about experiences such an emergency. Too bad the ambulance stationed just down the road is already on a call and the next closest one is 20 minutes away. It's easy to say that's an acceptable risk when you don't see the effects because it's never affected you.
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Old 11-04-2012, 16:11   #149
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Btw, we also have private emt/paramedic/ambulance services here.
Missed this the first time around.

Ok, here's a classic example of what I'm talking about. You, as a layperson (not meaning that disrespectfully) think a private for profit ambulance is the equivalent of a tax payer funded ambulance. That's understandable but highly inaccurate and I'll explain why.

In the state of SC (where I work) the state has a minimum requirement for ambulance staffing. That minimum requirement is one basic EMT and a driver. A basic EMT has the minimum amount of EMS training required by law to actually be an EMT. They can't provide advanced care like cardiac monitoring and treatment, they can't administer life saving medications, start IV's or pleural decompress. They can basically bandage, ventilate, compress (CPR) and transport. Most private ambulance companies staff their ambulances at the minimum level. They do that because for the vast majority of their calls that's all they need because they turn a profit by transporting people to dialysis, hospital discharge patients and transporting pt's to routine Dr. appointments. Their ambulances are typically stocked only to the basic level. If you have a heart attack and a private ambulance shows up you will receive oxygen and a ride. Sometimes the private companies actually do the right thing and actually call 911 so we can try and intercept them to provide a higher level of care.

Now, my tax payer funded municipal service has an ALS license. That means we have to have paramedics and all the required ALS equipment on our rigs. We have training standards we have to meet that BLS private services don't have to adhere to.


Now, at my tax payer funded service if you have a heart attack and I show up you'll get oxygen, bilateral IV's, cardiac 12 lead monitoring and interpretation and the necessary medicines to keep you alive and minimize ischemic damage to your heart. Most importantly, my tax payer funded equipment allows me to send my ECG findings to the hospital so they can have a cath lab team waiting on us when we roll in and you'll go straight to a cath lab, saving time and heart muscle.

Last edited by DaleGribble; 11-04-2012 at 16:23..
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Old 11-05-2012, 01:44   #150
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Missed this the first time around.

Ok, here's a classic example of what I'm talking about. You, as a layperson (not meaning that disrespectfully) think a private for profit ambulance is the equivalent of a tax payer funded ambulance. That's understandable but highly inaccurate and I'll explain why.

In the state of SC (where I work) the state has a minimum requirement for ambulance staffing. That minimum requirement is one basic EMT and a driver. A basic EMT has the minimum amount of EMS training required by law to actually be an EMT. They can't provide advanced care like cardiac monitoring and treatment, they can't administer life saving medications, start IV's or pleural decompress. They can basically bandage, ventilate, compress (CPR) and transport. Most private ambulance companies staff their ambulances at the minimum level. They do that because for the vast majority of their calls that's all they need because they turn a profit by transporting people to dialysis, hospital discharge patients and transporting pt's to routine Dr. appointments. Their ambulances are typically stocked only to the basic level. If you have a heart attack and a private ambulance shows up you will receive oxygen and a ride. Sometimes the private companies actually do the right thing and actually call 911 so we can try and intercept them to provide a higher level of care.

Now, my tax payer funded municipal service has an ALS license. That means we have to have paramedics and all the required ALS equipment on our rigs. We have training standards we have to meet that BLS private services don't have to adhere to.


Now, at my tax payer funded service if you have a heart attack and I show up you'll get oxygen, bilateral IV's, cardiac 12 lead monitoring and interpretation and the necessary medicines to keep you alive and minimize ischemic damage to your heart. Most importantly, my tax payer funded equipment allows me to send my ECG findings to the hospital so they can have a cath lab team waiting on us when we roll in and you'll go straight to a cath lab, saving time and heart muscle.
One mistake here:

He's NOT interested in the truth. He has AREADY made up his mind that unions are composed of greedy, useless people. He has ALREADY made up his mind that the paid F/R unit is of NO use. You cannot change his mind - there is no point for discussion. He's just running his mouth to gather some moral justification. Three sides to every story - His side, the union's side and then the truth. He is WAY too emotionally involved to have any kind of credible objective viewpoint here.

I would say that he is probably more then a little red-assed that he can't play Fire Fighter anymore.
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