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Old 10-06-2012, 23:05   #51
domin8ss
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I'm a shooter. A well placed round at the base of the neck or back of the head will resolve the problem without injuring the child, beyond a few cuts and scrapes due to being dropped. My weapon of choice is a handgun or rifle. I'm pretty good with my ccw. If it turned into a physical fight, that guy will likely lose. I've got more weight than most people (310 lbs right now). I run 6 miles per day 3 times a week, and I lift 3 times a week for 1˝-2 hours each day.
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Old 10-07-2012, 00:36   #52
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Taking the shot is always the last resort. But, like Clint Smith says, two in the gun *NOW* is better than a full load *MAYBE* (later). Of course this was in response to performing a tactical reload, but the moral of the story is the best tool for the job is the one at hand. If all you have at hand is a rubber chicken, it may be the best tool you have to dispatch the fool.

I do like the idea of aiming low to take out the legs with a shotgun.

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Old 10-07-2012, 08:12   #53
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Originally Posted by MarcDW View Post
I would catch up with the guy and hit him with the barrel or stock from behind over the head.
Multiple times until he drops and lets go of the child.
I would avoid shooting him specially if he ran away (without the child now)!
It would not be self defense at this time and hard to defend in court!
Really? Is that the law in the state you live in, or do you just think it is?

In most states, like here in KY, this is a perfectly clear deadly force situation and would be easier to justify in court than having the guy break into your house and point a gun at you (aside from the fact that you wouldn't have to go to court here, because arresting or prosecuting you would be illegal). I'd be very surprised if there is a state that doesn't allow deadly force to prevent kidnapping.

I'm pretty sure no state limits deadly force to just "self defense."
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:12   #54
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you don't have to be physically fit to run after someone carrying a child.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:16   #55
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So...I was talking with a like minded friend on Facebook. I've been meeting like an unbelievable amount of VERY pro gun people on FB lately, so much so that I haven't even been in gun forums much. But anyway, me and these folks were sitting around talking about how much we just don't give a damn what the anti gunners say about us having guns to protect ourselves with, or what laws they get passed. There are bad people in this world, and if it is between us and them, or them and a member of our family, they're going on a one way trip....to wherever land.

And I told the lady about a close call I had in the city I live in (not the only one), and said I live in a major city and that's just how it is in the big city, things happen, you have to watch your back, and be prepared because life around here is anything but predictable. Then I said but it doesn't matter..because bad things can happen literally any time, any place, regardless of location, population size, or gun laws.

So she told me that a few years ago, one of her girlfriends who lives down the street (in a VERY small town, and rural area), was in the bathroom of her house or something, and her little girl was in the living room. Well out of nowhere some piece of garbage in human form busts through her backdoor, grabs her small daughter, and takes off running out of the house with her. Well....momma had a shotgun.

She ran out after the fool and told him if he didn't put her girl down he was going bye bye. Needless to say, the guy was convinced. He put her down.

I told her at first...ya know....if a shotgun is all you have, and a kidnapper (pedophile obviously, and would be child rapist/killer) has your child....do what you gotta do, but truthfully a shotgun might not be the best weapon for that scenario, because of the danger of stray pellets hitting the little girl if she had to shoot. I told her a revolver or semi might be best.

Then I stopped and was like...ya know, on 2nd thought...maybe a shotgun would be PERFECT for a scenario like that....if you shoot at their legs, made SURE you aim low. Then you'd DEFINITELY hit the fool, and not endanger the child.

So we pondered on that for a bit and I decided this would be the best place to get a general consensus on the best weapon for that type of nightmare scenario. Because I don't know about you guys, but I have at a pretty close reach a shotgun, a 9mm and maybe even a 357 magnum. But maybe not..who knows?

Anyway....I'd like to hear what most people say about this, because that is an interesting question, that obviously I pray nobody has to experience, but it might be helpful to just prepare for the worst, yet hope for the best.
Keep the shotgun, aim low and blow his foot off. Unless your some distance away the pellets will not expand into a wide pattern. Big plus is his reaction to the 12G being racked.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:20   #56
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I don't know how this woman managed to catch up with the guy, but if you're asking what I would do, I think a shotgun would do just fine. Either I wouldn't be able to catch up with him, in which case I wouldn't fire ANY weapon, or I'd run right up to him and shoot very low. I'd much rather risk hitting my child in the foot (not likely unless the child's as tall as the kidnapper) vs letting the guy escape with my child. I'm not prescribing this for anyone else, every situation's different, blah blah blah
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:12   #57
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Really? Is that the law in the state you live in, or do you just think it is?

In most states, like here in KY, this is a perfectly clear deadly force situation and would be easier to justify in court than having the guy break into your house and point a gun at you (aside from the fact that you wouldn't have to go to court here, because arresting or prosecuting you would be illegal). I'd be very surprised if there is a state that doesn't allow deadly force to prevent kidnapping.

I'm pretty sure no state limits deadly force to just "self defense."
Of course laws are different from state to state.
You can read at least Maine law here:
http://www.mainelegislature.org/legi...7-asec104.html
You need to read and scroll up to §108.A.2. where it comes to kidnapping.
The key points are:
1. Even if this started in a home, by the time anyone catches up with the kidnapper it would be most likely on public ground.
2. The Maine law at least requires a "reasonably" response.
What would be safer and more reasonably?
a) Shooting at the guy and endanger the child and other bystanders?
b) Using the shot gun to hit the kidnapper?
3. Once you hit (with the shotgun or you trip him) the kidnapper and he lets go of the child, the kidnapping is over.
Therefore you have no right to use deadly force.
4. At this point a non LE person has the right to citizen arrest.
However a non LE person can not use deadly force as a method of arrest in public.
If the guy runs after dropping the child, shooting him then could result in prosecution of the mother.

Now as a side note, this is the law.
There are many laws I personally don't like!
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:44   #58
domin8ss
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you don't have to be physically fit to run after someone carrying a child.
No, you just have to be faster, or able to out run them. Both of which require some sort of physical fitness.
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:49   #59
domin8ss
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Really? Is that the law in the state you live in, or do you just think it is?

In most states, like here in KY, this is a perfectly clear deadly force situation and would be easier to justify in court than having the guy break into your house and point a gun at you (aside from the fact that you wouldn't have to go to court here, because arresting or prosecuting you would be illegal). I'd be very surprised if there is a state that doesn't allow deadly force to prevent kidnapping.

I'm pretty sure no state limits deadly force to just "self defense."
What about civil immunity? In Utah and Virginia it is perfectly fine to shoot this guy as he is running away with your child, and you don't need to worry about criminal prosecution. However, in Virginia you can be sued civilly by him or his family. In Utah, because the guy was violating the law and it was legal to shoot the guy, you cannot be sued.
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Old 10-07-2012, 17:07   #60
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1) Breaching
2) Non-lethal applications
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Old 10-07-2012, 17:09   #61
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A well placed round at the base of the neck or back of the head.
And you actually think you can do that at 10-20-30 yards with a person running away from you? Seriously?

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Old 11-03-2012, 22:51   #62
Chris Brines
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I'd take the shot. It's a tragic thought but I would rather a stray bullet hit my baby than have her raped for days before being murdered by a sicko.
I'd have taken the shot too...but I would have shot towards his feet. If I hit him in the leg or foot, great, if not I am pretty sure he'd figure I wasn't playing around after that point.
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Old 11-03-2012, 23:07   #63
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I know there are so many differing thoughts on this but from what you said about this situation I'd absolutely take my Daniel Defense M4 with its Aimpoint loaded with 70 grain Barnes TSX's. 2nd choice would be my Glock 19 with Corbon DPX's, with Meprolights. Either one with my skill I have pin point accuracy and know exactly where impact will be at any distance. And bottom line I trust myself with any life including my own, but that took years for me to feel that way. Some ******* gets away with kidnapping a child it will probably end very badly as opposed to my aim by the stats!
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Old 11-03-2012, 23:12   #64
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:46   #65
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I'm not sure how you could shoot the BG with anything while he was carrying a child.

Especially while you both were running
Which is why as soon as I got line of sight I would stop, swap for a slug, and aim.
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Old 11-04-2012, 08:40   #66
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thats a tough scenerio i like my sg for thinking about someone breaking in but obviously in that stiuation its not the optimal weapon to have. Luckily in that case for me id still have my ruger sr9c not a long range gun but better than a scattergun in that scenerio.

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Old 11-04-2012, 08:42   #67
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Not a very technical observation but an observation. 4 year old weighs between 35 to 50 pounds and stands about 3 1/2 -4 feet tall. In order to pick up the kid you have to hold it at least chest high in order to run.
Unless the pervert turns around to use the kid as a shield I see no problem shooting him in the calf, ankle area and dropping him.
I'm glad it all turned out well for the Family.
I have no issue with a shotgun for home defence, sometimes it can be the best choice.
When I deployed often I kept a 00 loaded 870 in the Master closet. 4 doors between the wife and Son (who slept in our bed at 2) and a rather large and angry doberman.
The instructions were keep the doors all locked and closed, if you hear a noise call the Cops take the phone and get in the closet.
Stay on the line and shove the barrel under the door knob, if the door knob turns before the Cops get there pull the trigger.
I often wodered what a door knob would do to a burglar when propelled by a shotgun blast.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:18   #68
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I would catch up with the guy and hit him with the barrel or stock from behind over the head.
Multiple times until he drops and lets go of the child.
I would avoid shooting him specially if he ran away (without the child now)!
It would not be self defense at this time and hard to defend in court!
People are too eager to shoot others (even if they deserve it)!
It is not a pleasant experience and the aftermath is even worse!
Someone who is willing to break into your home while you are there to snatch your child has watched and planned things out, its not a random act. Leaving them alive only leaves the chance of things being repeated (only better planned). That's not a chance I'd be willing to take.

However, taking a shot at someone holding a child would only be worth the risk if they were about to enter a vehicle, an absolute last resort.
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:41   #69
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
I'm not commenting on the scenario, but shotguns only really shine in two roles:

1) Breaching
2) Non-lethal applications


...oh, and ducks and clays and that stuff too.







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Old 11-04-2012, 10:44   #70
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agreed
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Old 11-04-2012, 10:54   #71
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Someone who is willing to break into your home while you are there to snatch your child has watched and planned things out, its not a random act. Leaving them alive only leaves the chance of things being repeated (only better planned). That's not a chance I'd be willing to take.

However, taking a shot at someone holding a child would only be worth the risk if they were about to enter a vehicle, an absolute last resort.
The next time you wear out a pair of sneakers take them to the range and set one out at 20 feet and take a shot with 00 Buck.
Now count the holes.
You can take the shot at a moving target and shoot his feet out from under him without worrying about hitting a kid in his arms at least 24 or more inches above that perverts feet.
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Old 11-04-2012, 11:50   #72
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Tough call.

I would do (and recommend others do) everything possible to avoid shooting. However, if the guy is truly going to escape with the daughter...I think it's worth the risk of taking a shot.
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