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Old 11-03-2012, 10:49   #101
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Originally Posted by Brucev View Post
He comes here to a public forum and blows about how upsetting it is to him that he can't control everything every where in his community exactly and precisely as he desires. The public responds. What's not to like?

At issue is a local tax matter. The complaints airs are typical of those who only want what they want at the local level. They have not yet learned that not only is the U.S. Army not a "Army of one," but that the local community like the state and the nation is not comprised of or purposed for the satisfaction of "the one."

Fair? Fair for the devotees of Rand and company is of course the robber baron vision of America. Happily America sees things differently. America sees things in terms of "We the people." That chaffs the post-modern robber baron aspirants. Tough. They'll get better. Just Hand eliminate their drinking the Koch koolaid.
I'm still not sure what the complaint about CF is. All sorts of people come here talking about/complaining about/trying to change stuff that affects them. What do you have against CF? He has money?

What's fair about some people paying in much less in taxes than they get back in benefits and other people paying in much more in taxes than they get back in benefits? Unless you come from a viewpoint where all property is owned and distributed by the State, how is taking from one and giving to another fair? I can see how equally spreading the cost of government across all people is fair (and would cause people to truly evaluate said government's value) but I don't understand how you can call "robbing Peter to pay Paul" fair.
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Old 11-03-2012, 12:31   #102
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I'm still not sure what the complaint about CF is. All sorts of people come here talking about/complaining about/trying to change stuff that affects them. What do you have against CF? He has money?

What's fair about some people paying in much less in taxes than they get back in benefits and other people paying in much more in taxes than they get back in benefits? Unless you come from a viewpoint where all property is owned and distributed by the State, how is taking from one and giving to another fair? I can see how equally spreading the cost of government across all people is fair (and would cause people to truly evaluate said government's value) but I don't understand how you can call "robbing Peter to pay Paul" fair.
Don't know CF. Have no interest in the man. What he has or does not have is irrelevant. He gets the same considerate treatment he dishes out.

As to taxation, whiners can always be relied upon to whine. Of course they cloak it under all sorts of excuses, but when the fluff is scrapped off, what remains is just excuses.

The majority of Americans in local communities, states and at the fed. level are happily the ones who make the decisions that matter. And... the whiners live with the consequences.
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Old 11-03-2012, 13:20   #103
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Union (yoon-yen) n, .

1. A parasite that kills it's host.
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Cost of living going up?

Your job been outsourced?

Your company close it's doors?




Thank a Union worker!


Since you're painting with such a broad brush, you won't mind some anti-women comments, will ya?

You ever worked a public safety job? Yeah, didn't think so. There's a reason we have unions (those of us allowed to by state law, that is). Here's a good example for you -

My contract requires that the department provide adequate safety equipment for us at the jail. Odd that this should be in a contract, and not common sense, no? Well, a large part of our job entails searching people with less than proper hygiene, not to mention all the blood we come into contact with during fights and such. Our fine agency decided to save money by buying rubber gloves for food service use.

Yep - they weren't bloodborne pathogen resistant, and said as much on the box. We fought the department for almost a year on this issue, and had to file a formal grievance that almost went to the mayor's office before the administration did something as simple as BUYING GLOVES THAT PREVENTED EXPOSURE TO BLOODBORNE PATHOGENS.

This is but one of MANY issues our union has fought for in the past. Stupid disciplinary issues, pay issues, more safety concerns...all without an increase in costs to the taxpayer. Unless you count all the times the administration does stupid stuff, and gets bit in the butt for it.

So, anything else you'd like to say about unions? I get gloves to wear to help minimize my exposure to AIDS/hepatitus/etc when I fight combative inmates or respond to medical emergencies that expose me to blood. That's reason enough for us to have a union. But, go ahead and buy the party line without knowing a damn thing about the topic, much less have experience in a union - specifically, a public safety union.

Oh, and we're the Fraternal Order of Police, for the record.
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Old 11-03-2012, 13:52   #104
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Let me guess...you're a "medic" who needs the union, therefore you can't cut it on your own.

Red
Nope! Not union, never was, never will be. I started my career as a Volunteer Firefighter EMT and went to medic school so I could move on to a paid position. Now I work for 2 County run departments, fulltime at each. I was just calling the OP as I see it. He has a boner for the FD and I knew there was some type of a "I got screwed over" reason he was so bitter. I have no dog in his fight. The uncaring citizens and the board of directors caused his situation.
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Old 11-03-2012, 14:34   #105
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Since you're painting with such a broad brush, you won't mind some anti-women comments, will ya?

You ever worked a public safety job? Yeah, didn't think so. There's a reason we have unions (those of us allowed to by state law, that is). Here's a good example for you -

My contract requires that the department provide adequate safety equipment for us at the jail. Odd that this should be in a contract, and not common sense, no? Well, a large part of our job entails searching people with less than proper hygiene, not to mention all the blood we come into contact with during fights and such. Our fine agency decided to save money by buying rubber gloves for food service use.

Yep - they weren't bloodborne pathogen resistant, and said as much on the box. We fought the department for almost a year on this issue, and had to file a formal grievance that almost went to the mayor's office before the administration did something as simple as BUYING GLOVES THAT PREVENTED EXPOSURE TO BLOODBORNE PATHOGENS.

This is but one of MANY issues our union has fought for in the past. Stupid disciplinary issues, pay issues, more safety concerns...all without an increase in costs to the taxpayer. Unless you count all the times the administration does stupid stuff, and gets bit in the butt for it.

So, anything else you'd like to say about unions? I get gloves to wear to help minimize my exposure to AIDS/hepatitus/etc when I fight combative inmates or respond to medical emergencies that expose me to blood. That's reason enough for us to have a union. But, go ahead and buy the party line without knowing a damn thing about the topic, much less have experience in a union - specifically, a public safety union.

Oh, and we're the Fraternal Order of Police, for the record.
That's exactly the type of foolishness unions cause. If those gloves didn't allow water in the didn't allow pathogens. Difference is to sell them at a food service price they didn't go thru the cost of certification.
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Old 11-03-2012, 17:19   #106
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That's exactly the type of foolishness unions cause. If those gloves didn't allow water in the didn't allow pathogens. Difference is to sell them at a food service price they didn't go thru the cost of certification.
Right. Where did I say they didn't let water in? This is the kind of tripe I've learned to expect from a soft ass dilettante such as yourself. Yeah, you're good with money, but that's about it. You have no idea what of what you speak, and are the poster child for the libs when they point out rich folks to demonize.

Personally, I have no problem with wealthy folks. But, you and one other assclown on this board go out of your way to make people dislike you. Try being a stay at home dad again - you were more likeable then. But, I guess doing something worthwhile with your life was too boring...

As to the gloves - when the packaging specifically states they are not for use with bloodborne pathogens, I suppose I should assume they're lying, and risk my life on your ill-informed candy ass speculation?
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Old 11-03-2012, 17:30   #107
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Right. Where did I say they didn't let water in? This is the kind of tripe I've learned to expect from a soft ass dilettante such as yourself. Yeah, you're good with money, but that's about it. You have no idea what of what you speak, and are the poster child for the libs when they point out rich folks to demonize.

Personally, I have no problem with wealthy folks. But, you and one other assclown on this board go out of your way to make people dislike you. Try being a stay at home dad again - you were more likeable then. But, I guess doing something worthwhile with your life was too boring...

As to the gloves - when the packaging specifically states they are not for use with bloodborne pathogens, I suppose I should assume they're lying, and risk my life on your ill-informed candy ass speculation?
So did they let water in or did the union reject them because of the packaging?
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Old 11-03-2012, 17:37   #108
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Since you're painting with such a broad brush, you won't mind some anti-women comments, will ya?

You ever worked a public safety job? Yeah, didn't think so. There's a reason we have unions (those of us allowed to by state law, that is). Here's a good example for you -

My contract requires that the department provide adequate safety equipment for us at the jail. Odd that this should be in a contract, and not common sense, no? Well, a large part of our job entails searching people with less than proper hygiene, not to mention all the blood we come into contact with during fights and such. Our fine agency decided to save money by buying rubber gloves for food service use.

Yep - they weren't bloodborne pathogen resistant, and said as much on the box. We fought the department for almost a year on this issue, and had to file a formal grievance that almost went to the mayor's office before the administration did something as simple as BUYING GLOVES THAT PREVENTED EXPOSURE TO BLOODBORNE PATHOGENS.

This is but one of MANY issues our union has fought for in the past. Stupid disciplinary issues, pay issues, more safety concerns...all without an increase in costs to the taxpayer. Unless you count all the times the administration does stupid stuff, and gets bit in the butt for it.

So, anything else you'd like to say about unions? I get gloves to wear to help minimize my exposure to AIDS/hepatitus/etc when I fight combative inmates or respond to medical emergencies that expose me to blood. That's reason enough for us to have a union. But, go ahead and buy the party line without knowing a damn thing about the topic, much less have experience in a union - specifically, a public safety union.

Oh, and we're the Fraternal Order of Police, for the record.
Why would inadequate safety equipment be a union issue? Why wouldn't it be an OSHA issue (or, really, a contract issue- I assume the employment contract has something in it about supplying adequate safety equipment)?
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Old 11-03-2012, 19:53   #109
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Right. Where did I say they didn't let water in? This is the kind of tripe I've learned to expect from a soft ass dilettante such as yourself. Yeah, you're good with money, but that's about it. You have no idea what of what you speak, and are the poster child for the libs when they point out rich folks to demonize.
So you really think he (we) bring up these topics just for amusement?

How do you actually know what he is or is not good at?




Quote:
Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
Personally, I have no problem with wealthy folks. But, you and one other assclown on this board go out of your way to make people dislike you. Try being a stay at home dad again - you were more likeable then. But, I guess doing something worthwhile with your life was too boring...

As to the gloves - when the packaging specifically states they are not for use with bloodborne pathogens, I suppose I should assume they're lying, and risk my life on your ill-informed candy ass speculation?
Ahh..now we are getting somewhere. You just dislike people that are successful.

As far as labeled not for blood borne pathogens, that is very clear why that is. That would make them a Class 1 medical device which "significantly" increases the cost.

I am about as anti-union as they come. The testing/traceability that goes into food grade gloves vs medical gloves is much different. For contact with blood borne pathogens you should be wearing proper gloves that have been tested properly.

Again, I am anti-union, but I would not subject my employees to that. In fact, safety is one area where cost is really not a question (within reason).
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:00   #110
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Two weeks ago I donated $100 to local FD. (All volunteer) Yep they have lots of guys who sign up to be able to tell girls. Most have 10+ yrs in. I looked over training board. There were two who had not been to +80% of training. They had missed 4 months worth. (seems they are deployed overseas) I wonder if they joined military to get girls as well.
Then again of those I know. ALL but 3 are married. (so becomming a fire fighter must work)

They had to get new fire pumper truck. I asked what was wrong with old one? I was told new insurance requirements said the pumper must be rated to X thousand gallons per minute. So I asked if they ever had situation where they didn't have enough GPM? The answer not even close. There is not even a 3 story building in area.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:12   #111
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A glove is not just a glove. There are so many out there that are for pathogens but are so thin that 10% are ruined just by putting them on. Then the EMS guys double glove with the often failed hope that they do not get holes in them.

At the FD the Chief finally decided it is cheaper to buy the more expensive gloves. Less waste and less cost due to decreased exposurere to pathogens. Remember a exposure could be a death sentence.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:28   #112
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They had to get new fire pumper truck. I asked what was wrong with old one? I was told new insurance requirements said the pumper must be rated to X thousand gallons per minute. So I asked if they ever had situation where they didn't have enough GPM? The answer not even close. There is not even a 3 story building in area.
ISO goes by potential need. If you have a station full of trucks that do not meet the fire flow than as far as they are concerned you do not have fire protection.

Really the Insurance companies run the FD. They tell you where to put the station. What trucks to use. How many personnel. What to train on and how much to train. What other equipment to have on the trucks. Where to have hydrants and how much water they flow.

If you follow their "recommendations" they will award your tax payers with much discounted insurance. If you choose to ignore them you end up paying inflated insurance even if you have a good fd.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:39   #113
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ISO goes by potential need. If you have a station full of trucks that do not meet the fire flow than as far as they are concerned you do not have fire protection.

Really the Insurance companies run the FD. They tell you where to put the station. What trucks to use. How many personnel. What to train on and how much to train. What other equipment to have on the trucks. Where to have hydrants and how much water they flow.

If you follow their "recommendations" they will award your tax payers with much discounted insurance. If you choose to ignore them you end up paying inflated insurance even if you have a good fd.
That is exactly the impression I got from folks at FD when I was looking over trucks.
I was very tempted to buy a fire truck. (how this conversation got started) A online auction site I check has had 4 pumper trucks this summer on auction. Low miles, always stored inside, cleaned, many auto trans/dsl and CHEAP.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:24   #114
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So you really think he (we) bring up these topics just for amusement?

How do you actually know what he is or is not good at?






Ahh..now we are getting somewhere. You just dislike people that are successful.

As far as labeled not for blood borne pathogens, that is very clear why that is. That would make them a Class 1 medical device which "significantly" increases the cost.

I am about as anti-union as they come. The testing/traceability that goes into food grade gloves vs medical gloves is much different. For contact with blood borne pathogens you should be wearing proper gloves that have been tested properly.

Again, I am anti-union, but I would not subject my employees to that. In fact, safety is one area where cost is really not a question (within reason).

For such a successful person, you sorely lack an ability to comprehend what you read.



I have ZERO problems with rich folks. None, nada, nothing wrong with being rich. I could have done something to make myself wealthy, but chose a different path. Not a big deal.

The problem I have with "some" wealthy folks is simple - they're jackasses. They feel that having money entitles them to special treatment, and to hell with the unwashed masses. I believe Marie A. has a quote attributed to her that expresses your sentiment quite nicely - just after she allegedly spoke it, she lost her head..literally.

But yeah, there are a couple of well-to-do people on this board who act just like the stereotype that the liberals love to use for class warfare. And, it's annoying. As I said earlier, CF may be good at making money, but he has no idea about other things in the real world. For example, he has no real idea WHY the fire department is having troubles, but assumes it's due to the union. In the real world, correlation does not equal causation. But, CF is so arrogant and cocksure of himself, he assumes the problem is the union.

Of course, I'd assume the problem is him, and his "**** you, I got mine" attitude. But, even though that IS his attitude, I doubt it caused the economic troubles at the fire department.

I still maintain that he was more likeable when he was a stay-at-home dad. Of course, his ego probably wouldn't allow that, so he had to get another job, because taking care of a child just isn't important enough and doesn't allow one to strut about like a rooster in the pen.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:31   #115
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So did they let water in or did the union reject them because of the packaging?
Well, the first clue we had that they didn't stop BBP (bloodborne pathogens) is when the label said as much. And, we didn't "reject" them - we were forced to use them, since they were the only gloves provided, for months.

I still don't get your attitude - you really think that gloves, which are specifically labeled against use with blood, will stop blood and disease anyway, and that the union is bad for demanding proper equipment?

What a dumbass. Pull your head out, and live in the real world. Better yet, come fight a guy with HIV that like to bite his lip and spit blood on you. Then, tell me which gloves you want to be using. And yeah, we've got "that" guy in custody right now. Seems we have to fight him at least once per week or so. But hey, I'll let the admin know they can go back to buying cheap gloves, because good ol' no-nothing CF said there was nothing wrong with them.

Again, the perfect example of the "I got mine, screw you" attitude the libs love to hold up against the wealthy.


For the poster who asked about OSHA -

Yes, OSHA requires proper gloves, as well. Which do you think gets resolved faster? An OSHA complaint, or a grievance filed to the local government? I'll give you a hint - the Feds aren't my first pick...but, they were next on the list, should the grievance have failed.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:46   #116
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For such a successful person, you sorely lack an ability to comprehend what you read.



I have ZERO problems with rich folks. None, nada, nothing wrong with being rich. I could have done something to make myself wealthy, but chose a different path. Not a big deal.

The problem I have with "some" wealthy folks is simple - they're jackasses. They feel that having money entitles them to special treatment, and to hell with the unwashed masses. I believe Marie A. has a quote attributed to her that expresses your sentiment quite nicely - just after she allegedly spoke it, she lost her head..literally.

But yeah, there are a couple of well-to-do people on this board who act just like the stereotype that the liberals love to use for class warfare. And, it's annoying. As I said earlier, CF may be good at making money, but he has no idea about other things in the real world. For example, he has no real idea WHY the fire department is having troubles, but assumes it's due to the union. In the real world, correlation does not equal causation. But, CF is so arrogant and cocksure of himself, he assumes the problem is the union.

Of course, I'd assume the problem is him, and his "**** you, I got mine" attitude. But, even though that IS his attitude, I doubt it caused the economic troubles at the fire department.

I still maintain that he was more likeable when he was a stay-at-home dad. Of course, his ego probably wouldn't allow that, so he had to get another job, because taking care of a child just isn't important enough and doesn't allow one to strut about like a rooster in the pen.
I think his point all along has been that they had a volunteer system that worked fine. The Federal government stepped in and threw some money into the mix and someone in government decided that we can have "free" paid firefighters and then that money ran out and now its no longer free and he is going to have to pay a lot of money for something that previously worked fine when it was run by volunteers.

I say fire all the firefighters and go back to the volunteer system. The people paying the bills get the say not the employees.

We had the same thing happen here in Jefferson County. Before the county took over we largely had volunteer fire departments that did an awesome job. But when the city and county government merged the metro government decided we really couldn't have volunteers when there were Union jobs with nice juicy pensions to be handed out and votes to be got. So now we have a very expensive professional firefighting force where we previously had a very competent and cost effective volunteer system.

Taxpayers loose again...
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:01   #117
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I live in Jefferson county - I know more than a few volunteers.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but you seem to be implying that the former volunteers are gone, and have been replaced by LFD. That is NOT the case, and actually has a lot of us taxpayers pissed. Here's why -

I pay taxes to my local fire department. In my case, I'm smack dab in between two different ones (Highview and Fern Creek). All the county departments have paid employees, but just a few, like the situation CF described. As I mentioned, I know a number of volunteers. My duck hunting buddy is one, as are a number of past and present coworkers.

So, each department had both paid and vollie firefighters there. I pay taxes to the department, as well. I also got a tax increase after merger, and now pay for LFD, as well. Yet, I don't get LFD service. I also don't get trash pickup for free, which is something else I pay taxes for, but don't receive, since I live in the county and not the city.

In any case, I pay more money and don't get services from LFD. How's that work? I get service from people who "might" be squared away...but, might just be on the department so they can drive fast with pretty lights and loud sirens in their personal cars. I know both types of vollie, as does ANY street cop with a volunteer station in their area.

Honestly, I'd rather have LFD service, because they are serious folks who've dedicated their lives to the fire service. Their testing procedures are very difficult, and tend to weed out the folks who just want shiny and loud things.

By the way, when did you move here? I thought you lived further west?
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:13   #118
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Well, the first clue we had that they didn't stop BBP (bloodborne pathogens) is when the label said as much. And, we didn't "reject" them - we were forced to use them, since they were the only gloves provided, for months.
There is a difference between stopping blood borne pathogens and being tested to do so. The one you had likely stopped them, they just werent sold/labeled as such.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:23   #119
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I live in Jefferson county - I know more than a few volunteers.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean, but you seem to be implying that the former volunteers are gone, and have been replaced by LFD. That is NOT the case, and actually has a lot of us taxpayers pissed. Here's why -

I pay taxes to my local fire department. In my case, I'm smack dab in between two different ones (Highview and Fern Creek). All the county departments have paid employees, but just a few, like the situation CF described. As I mentioned, I know a number of volunteers. My duck hunting buddy is one, as are a number of past and present coworkers.

So, each department had both paid and vollie firefighters there. I pay taxes to the department, as well. I also got a tax increase after merger, and now pay for LFD, as well. Yet, I don't get LFD service. I also don't get trash pickup for free, which is something else I pay taxes for, but don't receive, since I live in the county and not the city.

In any case, I pay more money and don't get services from LFD. How's that work? I get service from people who "might" be squared away...but, might just be on the department so they can drive fast with pretty lights and loud sirens in their personal cars. I know both types of vollie, as does ANY street cop with a volunteer station in their area.

Honestly, I'd rather have LFD service, because they are serious folks who've dedicated their lives to the fire service. Their testing procedures are very difficult, and tend to weed out the folks who just want shiny and loud things.

By the way, when did you move here? I thought you lived further west?
I've lived in or around the Ville for most of my life. For the 10 years I was in the military I lived around the world and a few years in El Paso after I left the service. But I grew up here, went to school here and live in the East End now.

Go in your local Fire Department and find out how many full time people they have on the payroll now.... In Middletown its almost 80% professional to 20% volunteer. Also, I want nothing to do with the City. Live or work inside the former city limits and you WILL pay another 2% in income tax... Been there done that.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:24   #120
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
Well, the first clue we had that they didn't stop BBP (bloodborne pathogens) is when the label said as much. And, we didn't "reject" them - we were forced to use them, since they were the only gloves provided, for months.
If the gloves didn't stop blood, instead of pissing and moaning and complaining to the union you could have simply gone and bought a box and stuffed a handful in your pocket each day. A big box costs like $5 and would probably last you a year. You doc would have likely just given you a box for the asking if you had explained it.

But instead you endangered your own life by using them?

If it happens again, PM me and I'll send you a box. Your d-baggery doesn't really bother me.

But since you mentioned it, if everyone was "forced to use them for months" and you're up to your elbows in infectious bodily fluids every day, how many people contracted HIV or HBV in that time period since the gloves just let the pathogens through?

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 11-04-2012 at 07:25..
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:25   #121
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
There is a difference between stopping blood borne pathogens and being tested to do so. The one you had likely stopped them, they just werent sold/labeled as such.
They probably did. That said, I don't blame the guy for wanting equipment tested/certified for his situation. I know I'd want it.

That said, I've worked in situations where you need gloves and PPE to protect oneself from BBP. I've never been in a union and yet somehow I was still provided the correct personal protective equipment.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:27   #122
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I think his point all along has been that they had a volunteer system that worked fine. The Federal government stepped in and threw some money into the mix and someone in government decided that we can have "free" paid firefighters and then that money ran out and now its no longer free and he is going to have to pay a lot of money for something that previously worked fine when it was run by volunteers.

I say fire all the firefighters and go back to the volunteer system. The people paying the bills get the say not the employees.

We had the same thing happen here in Jefferson County. Before the county took over we largely had volunteer fire departments that did an awesome job. But when the city and county government merged the metro government decided we really couldn't have volunteers when there were Union jobs with nice juicy pensions to be handed out and votes to be got. So now we have a very expensive professional firefighting force where we previously had a very competent and cost effective volunteer system.

Taxpayers loose again...
This exactly

And now that unions are involved, the budget is busted.

But you should see all of the nice custom expeditions they're driving around.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:29   #123
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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post
The problem I have with "some" wealthy folks is simple - they're jackasses. They feel that having money entitles them to special treatment, and to hell with the unwashed masses. I believe Marie A. has a quote attributed to her that expresses your sentiment quite nicely - just after she allegedly spoke it, she lost her head..literally.
There are many things/services that money entitles one to that the unwashed masses dont get. I hate to break it to you. I saw a woman driving a ferrari yesterday. There are expensive restaurants. Do you think that people who own boxes to football games wait in the same line for beer as the person with a simple seat? Do you think you go through the same security line if you own a private jet as you do if you are flying commercial?

If money doesnt entitle people to things, even more access to govt, call your governor and ask for a a two hour long meeting. See how far that gets you. Now try the same, having a bunch of money, and wanting to talk to him.

Money does entitle people to very many things. That is just a fact of life. You can like it or not, but that is how it works.

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Originally Posted by wprebeck View Post

For example, he has no real idea WHY the fire department is having troubles, but assumes it's due to the union. In the real world, correlation does not equal causation. But, CF is so arrogant and cocksure of himself, he assumes the problem is the union.

Go back and read the post. It is about going from a volunteer system, to getting federal funding, a union moving, the federal funding drying up, union still demanding same compensation.

As I said earlier, some taxes I think are needed. Some are a total waste. You can go on this forum and welfare = bad. Saving someones mother in law = my moral responsibility. Any FD = blessed. Any LEO tax = godlike. Military tax = dont even think about questioning it. Road tax = those damn wasteful workers. Social Security = Old GTer = I earned it so its good. Social Security = Young GTer = I am going to get screwed so its bad.

People on this forum think most taxes are bad UNLESS it is their sacred cow. What people are not seeing, is the money is running out (or gone). Either some sacred cows are going to have to be scarified or each person is going to have to let a little bit of their cow be eaten.

We are headed in the direction of the Greeks. We can do something about it (maybe).

I suggest you go read the newest edition of Time magazine about the fiscal cliff we are withing months (January 1st) of going off. They make the argument we have much bigger problems than Greece. I also suggest you read the first few chapters of this book:



It explains why the economy in the 2000s was artificial and why we are where we are at. People still believe in the economy as it was. It will never be like that again.
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:37   #124
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Well I gotta ask
If it's union firefighters are they using i phones or Androids ?

Last edited by buster55; 11-04-2012 at 07:38..
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Old 11-04-2012, 07:47   #125
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Well I gotta ask
If it's union firefighters are they using i phones or Androids ?
Whichever is most expensive I'm sure
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