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Old 11-03-2012, 14:57   #26
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Originally Posted by Yertology View Post
But the price tag on a new gen4 is 20-30$ more than a new gen3? This thread is depressing



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How many magazines with third generation vs. a Gen4?
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Old 11-03-2012, 15:34   #27
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Show me a major gun company that isn't constantly looking to reduce costs, especially one that competes for LE/Gov sales ...
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Old 11-03-2012, 16:30   #28
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Show me a major gun company that isn't constantly looking to reduce costs, especially one that competes for LE/Gov sales ...
Sure..... every Company is looking to save money. Some just refuse to do it at the expense of quality.
Look at some of the Companies that are doing really well right now like BCM. I would be willing to bet their sales would go to hell if they started putting in sub-standard parts.
Even Colt is selling the LE6920 with a better stock (Rogers Super Stoc) than the rattle trap they were using.
People buy these guns because of the Quality.

I don't think most of the large LE/Gov. sales are going to DPMS and STAG.

I would have rather had Glock raise the price of their pistols by $50 dollars and keep the same extractors etc. than put in something that may or may not be as good. They could keep that 3rd magazine they now include with the Gen4s.
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Old 11-03-2012, 17:38   #29
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Just wondering, does anyone know of a vendor that sells Glock replacement parts so we could swap out the "compromised" or less durable parts with cast metal pieces or something other than MIM? I know allot of the parts aren't showing people any trouble for the most part, but I just prefer the idea of having the "more" durable parts in the firearm. Especially like the extractor, and related parts. I also noticed on the older glocks the trigger has ridges on it, but the new glocks, the trigger is just smooth (saving $ by reducing processes). I liked the grooves in the older glocks but to each his own.
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Old 11-03-2012, 17:55   #30
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Just wondering, does anyone know of a vendor that sells Glock replacement parts so we could swap out the "compromised" or less durable parts with cast metal pieces or something other than MIM? I know allot of the parts aren't showing people any trouble for the most part, but I just prefer the idea of having the "more" durable parts in the firearm. Especially like the extractor, and related parts. I also noticed on the older glocks the trigger has ridges on it, but the new glocks, the trigger is just smooth (saving $ by reducing processes). I liked the grooves in the older glocks but to each his own.
http://www.apextactical.com/
From what i've seen, they are selling like HOTCAKES!
I wonder why if there is not a problem with the OEM part?!
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Old 11-03-2012, 18:00   #31
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Originally Posted by Marshall_tx View Post
Just wondering, does anyone know of a vendor that sells Glock replacement parts so we could swap out the "compromised" or less durable parts with cast metal pieces or something other than MIM? I know allot of the parts aren't showing people any trouble for the most part, but I just prefer the idea of having the "more" durable parts in the firearm. Especially like the extractor, and related parts. I also noticed on the older glocks the trigger has ridges on it, but the new glocks, the trigger is just smooth (saving $ by reducing processes). I liked the grooves in the older glocks but to each his own.
Here you are for extractors.

https://apextactical.com/store/produ...php?pid67.html

The groves on the trigger is a points driven scheme by BATFE to be importable only required on compacts and sub compact Glocks. Full size Glock have smooth trigger and If you really like the grooved trigger you can put one in your full sized gun or vise versa.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/179...rooved-trigger
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Old 11-03-2012, 18:51   #32
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Sure..... every Company is looking to save money. Some just refuse to do it at the expense of quality ...
It's the definition of the phrase "at the expense of quality" that can start to become problematic or contentious. I've heard personal opinions bordering on the innumerable, expressed by owners among various online gun forums, and most of them aren't exactly what you might call an "informed" opinion.

The use of MIM for parts in firearms is an example. Some folks have an instant abhorrent reaction, and often without knowing anything about the process or the achievable quality if results.

S&W owns their own MIM molds which is an expensive proposition, and they made the decision to do so reportedly because they wanted to retain control over the quality of the molds. The MIM houses they use aren't located offshore, either.

They operate the largest forging & heat treating facilities on the Eastern Seaboard, making parts (and performing other processes) for many other companies. I've heard they're supplying parts, assemblies & processes for other gun companies, as well as making parts for at least one well respected motorcycle company, and landing gear for aircraft. They have the capability to manufacture all parts needed for their products, but they still use outside vendors where possible ... supposedly not to save on costs, but to save on using up floorspace and manufacturing capability, in-house (until it's ever necessary, someday).

I remember when gun owners reacted the same way to the use of aluminum as pistol frames, or cast steel parts (versus forged) being used.

The funny thing is, I've seen more problems occur with cast & forged steel parts over the years than I have occur with MIM parts. Go figure, right?

Perish the thought of using a plastic compound for a frame!?!



Kind of depends on the application, the design and the quality of the materials, doesn't it?

Just as some cast is not representative of what's possible (and desirable) for all cast parts ... and ditto with forged ... the use of plastic & MIM depends on why, how & where it's used, and the way it's produced.

Quality control (and the consistency thereof ) also has a lot to do with how a product turns out, right?

Does anybody really think that Glock's introduction of the Gen4 guns was done as a cost-cutting measure?
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Old 11-03-2012, 18:57   #33
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...The funny thing is, I've seen more problems occur with cast & forged steel parts over the years than I have occur with MIM parts. Go figure, right?...

Correct. I have witnessed the same and been told as such as well in person by a former president of the APG (American Pistolsmith Guild) who builds high dollar 1911's.

99.99% of the time it's the Indian & not the arrow. The quality of shooters has gone down far more than the quality of guns.
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Old 11-03-2012, 19:15   #34
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99.99% of the time it's the Indian & not the arrow. The quality of shooters has gone down far more than the quality of guns.
Well, I wasn't going to put it quite that way ... but since you brought it up ...

As an instructor, I really miss the days when cops had to learn to shoot DA revolvers.

Having to shoot both strong & weak hand at 25 yards, and out to 50 yards, required the shooter to have some grasp of a good handgun shooting foundation, right?

Show me someone who has learned to accurately, controllably and effectively shoot a medium-framed Magnum DA revolver - in DA mode - having to deal with awkward shaped wooden grip stocks, a heavy & long DA trigger stroke, and learn to aim their shots because they've only got 6 rounds at the ready ... and I'll show you a person I'd much rather transition over to pistols, than try and teach a pistol shooter how to shoot a DA revolver.

I still see some older cops who may grumble about having to deal with loading magazines (instead of cylinders), and having to manipulate slide stop levers, magazine catches and decockers ... but who can drill threat targets as if their guns were radar guided. They may not necessarily like the new-fangled pistols (or cellphones, for that matter), but they've got that whole grip, trigger control & sight alignment/picture process down.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:17   #35
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Using your logic, you shouldn't mind if they make your glock barrel and locking block out of Tin. It would be amusing to think certain parts may need to be made better/stronger!

I would rather pay a little more and maintain high standards than compromise on quality in ANY way.
You're not using logic. The method of making a part, has nothing to do with the material that is suitable, for that part. You can make cheaper frames, with cardboard. Would you buy a cardboard gun, if it was forged or hand made, by an experienced machinist?

Please, tell me, how do you know that quality has been compromised, because a particular part isn't made, using some process that you don't like?

If a gun wasn't built, using more modern methods, that cut cost, I couldn't afford to buy most guns, on the market, now. Parts can be produced, using MIM, to much tighter tolerances than most older methods. It's usually best, for small, intricate parts. Once the process has been set up, every single part, made in a mold will be exactly the same. Ruger has proven casting makes a strong gun frame. People said that was inferior to forging and maybe it is, but it works and keeps the prices where I can afford to buy a gun.

S&W is using MIM parts, in their revolvers and the 629 Classic that I have, is the smoothest trigger and best timed revolver that I own.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:30   #36
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Originally Posted by Yertology View Post
But the price tag on a new gen4 is 20-30$ more than a new gen3? This thread is depressing



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What is the third magazine worth?


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isn't it amazing when a company makes a product that is just about perfect... they go and change it ??? why ?
Well, unfortunately a lot of people (consumers) are not very smart, and they complain and bash and say they won't buy XYZ because it hasn't changed in 10+ years, therefore it is outdated and not worth their money.
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Old 11-03-2012, 20:31   #37
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Let me put it this way fastbolt.

Out of the pics below, guess which group of Glocks send brass to my face. I only have 2 Gen4 Glocks.

General Glocking

General Glocking

General Glocking

General Glocking

DING, DING, DING........ We have a winner!
General Glocking


I've put countless thousands of rounds through all of them and the only one the send brass flying into my face are the Gen 4 G26s. It doesn't take rocket science to figure out something has changed big time.
Yes fastbolt, it does depend on the application.
It looks like Glock hasn't figured out what parts they can cut corners on.
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Old 11-03-2012, 21:03   #38
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I've heard personal opinions bordering on the innumerable, expressed by owners among various online gun forums, and most of them aren't exactly what you might call an "informed" opinion.
Wow! I've found someone who's really in the know!
Are you a Master Class Shooter? I bet you compete in those shooting competitions like IDPA and IPSC?
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Old 11-04-2012, 01:22   #39
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It's the definition of the phrase "at the expense of quality" that can start to become problematic or contentious. I've heard personal opinions bordering on the innumerable, expressed by owners among various online gun forums, and most of them aren't exactly what you might call an "informed" opinion.

The use of MIM for parts in firearms is an example. Some folks have an instant abhorrent reaction, and often without knowing anything about the process or the achievable quality if results.

S&W owns their own MIM molds which is an expensive proposition, and they made the decision to do so reportedly because they wanted to retain control over the quality of the molds. The MIM houses they use aren't located offshore, either.

They operate the largest forging & heat treating facilities on the Eastern Seaboard, making parts (and performing other processes) for many other companies. I've heard they're supplying parts, assemblies & processes for other gun companies, as well as making parts for at least one well respected motorcycle company, and landing gear for aircraft. They have the capability to manufacture all parts needed for their products, but they still use outside vendors where possible ... supposedly not to save on costs, but to save on using up floorspace and manufacturing capability, in-house (until it's ever necessary, someday).

I remember when gun owners reacted the same way to the use of aluminum as pistol frames, or cast steel parts (versus forged) being used.

The funny thing is, I've seen more problems occur with cast & forged steel parts over the years than I have occur with MIM parts. Go figure, right?

Perish the thought of using a plastic compound for a frame!?!



Kind of depends on the application, the design and the quality of the materials, doesn't it?

Just as some cast is not representative of what's possible (and desirable) for all cast parts ... and ditto with forged ... the use of plastic & MIM depends on why, how & where it's used, and the way it's produced.

Quality control (and the consistency thereof ) also has a lot to do with how a product turns out, right?

Does anybody really think that Glock's introduction of the Gen4 guns was done as a cost-cutting measure?
Dang, that was really well put . I must say after that I must agree with you on most points, however, just being the fact that allot of people have been posting about certain parts of the firearm "problematicing" away it still puts me on an uncertainty to some extent, despite being the fact that Glock is supposed to be the "standard" when it comes to good'ol fashion durability, reliability, and economically. I like Glock's because logically, it makes perfect sense to own one; the tool works when you need it to, and the tool does not need to be treated like as if it were fragile. {"Gaston Glock, if you are reading this PLEASE revert back to your previous method/s of placing functionality over form"}

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Old 11-04-2012, 06:17   #40
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Dang, that was really well put . I must say after that I must agree with you on most points, however, just being the fact that allot of people have been posting about certain parts of the firearm "problematicing" away it still puts me on an uncertainty to some extent, despite being the fact that Glock is supposed to be the "standard" when it comes to good'ol fashion durability, reliability, and economically. I like Glock's because logically, it makes perfect sense to own one; the tool works when you need it to, and the tool does not need to be treated like as if it were fragile. {"Gaston Glock, if you are reading this PLEASE revert back to your previous method/s of placing functionality over form"}

Marshall

There are folks who have alots of first hand experience besides high Glocktalk post counts that DO think there is a problem.
Some people are so blind loyal, they will never admit their holy brand may have an Issue.

The Moderators may need to put a warning at the top of this thread.

"WARNING!!!!!........ READING THE POSTS BELOW COULD CAUSE FLASHBACKS TO WALTHERGA THREADS!
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:41   #41
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I had 12 Glocks down to 5 and the reason I don't get rid of these is because I have too many extra parts, mags, holster, etc. H&K, Sig and 1911 for now.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:49   #42
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Coke changed Coke and almost went broke. Glock changed the Model 17 and messed up the most reliable 9mm ever made, looks like.
I've wondered if the change to New Coke wasn't really done to hide the change from sugar to corn syrup as the sweetener.


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Old 11-04-2012, 06:52   #43
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But the price tag on a new gen4 is 20-30$ more than a new gen3? This thread is depressing



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You also get 3 mags instead of 2.
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:56   #44
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But the price tag on a new gen4 is 20-30$ more than a new gen3?
Yes, but the 4's come with three mags, and the 3's come with two.

Rats!!! HexHead already said that. Day late and a dollar short...that's me. lol
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Old 11-04-2012, 06:59   #45
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In its ads, Taurus claims to make all the parts for its guns...

Properly done, investment casting - the process Ruger uses - aligns the grain of the metal to best resist forces of firing.


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Old 11-04-2012, 11:38   #46
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Wow! I've found someone who's really in the know!
Are you a Master Class Shooter? I bet you compete in those shooting competitions like IDPA and IPSC?
Not sure where you mean to go with some of your posts. It's somewhat apparent you're dissatisfied with some aspects of newer Glocks. Okay. Your prerogative.

FWIW, I'm neither a competitive shooter, nor am I a licensed gunsmith, engineer, factory technician, rep or salesperson.

I've been a LE firearms instructor since '90, and I've been through more than 20 armorer classes (only 3 of which have been Glock classes), so I've acquired a passing familiarity with some small number of firearms used in the LE/Gov field, and I've had the opportunity to work with both LE & non-LE shooters (which has allowed me to observe how various guns behave in the hands of some shooters/owners).

Never claimed to be anybody's "expert".

I haven't taken a job with any of the gun companies since my retirement (really thought about it, though).

I neither shill for any particular firearm company, nor profess "loyalty" to any of their products simply based upon a company. (I leave that sort of thing to folks who like to claim loyalty and allegiance to sports teams ... which is something else I don't do. )

As an armorer I've listened to any number of armorer instructors, reps, engineers and other factory folks (for assorted gun companies) who have described assorted changes, revisions & refinements involving designs, materials, manufacturing and vendors. Not uncommon in the firearms world. Sometimes changes have the desired result ... and sometimes there's an occasional unintended consequence. Things happen.

I think the internet allows little things to get blown out of proportion very easily and incredibly quickly.

I think incorrect info gets circulated and becomes accepted as "fact".

I also think that the expectations of some firearms owners can be a bit unrealistic, too.

If you're dissatisfied with your Gen4 Glock, you might consider either working with the company to resolve any realistic issues, or do so with a local Glock armorer. The company was very responsive when I was discussing my own late production Gen3 erratic ejection issues. They offered to examine the gun and try to correct anything necessary if I wanted, even though I'm an armorer. I have no complaints with their response and helpfulness.

Glocks aren't necessarily my first couple of choices for plastic pistols, but they make a fine, serviceable product. I'll continue to own and use the ones I've bought.

BTW, as an armorer for the M&P pistol (2 classes) and the SW99/P99 (3 classes), I've become aware of how each of those designs have received (and benefited from) revisions, refinements and design changes along the way, over the years. Like I said ... such things aren't uncommon.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:16   #47
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[quote=fastbolt;19590278]Not sure where you mean to go with some of your posts. It's somewhat apparent you're dissatisfied with some aspects of newer Glocks. Okay. Your prerogative.

FWIW, I'm neither a competitive shooter, nor am I a licensed gunsmith, engineer, factory technician, rep or salesperson.

I've been a LE firearms instructor since '90, and I've been through more than 20 armorer classes (only 3 of which have been Glock classes), so I've acquired a passing familiarity with some small number of firearms used in the LE/Gov field, and I've had the opportunity to work with both LE & non-LE shooters (which has allowed me to observe how various guns behave in the hands of some shooters/owners).

Never claimed to be anybody's "expert".

I haven't taken a job with any of the gun companies since my retirement (really thought about it, though).

I neither shill for any particular firearm company, nor profess "loyalty" to any of their products simply based upon a company. (I leave that sort of thing to folks who like to claim loyalty and allegiance to sports teams ... which is something else I don't do. )

As an armorer I've listened to any number of armorer instructors, reps, engineers and other factory folks (for assorted gun companies) who have described assorted changes, revisions & refinements involving designs, materials, manufacturing and vendors. Not uncommon in the firearms world. Sometimes changes have the desired result ... and sometimes there's an occasional unintended consequence. Things happen.

I think the internet allows little things to get blown out of proportion very easily and incredibly quickly.

I think incorrect info gets circulated and becomes accepted as "fact".

I also think that the expectations of some firearms owners can be a bit unrealistic, too.

If you're dissatisfied with your Gen4 Glock, you might consider either working with the company to resolve any realistic issues, or do so with a local Glock armorer. The company was very responsive when I was discussing my own late production Gen3 erratic ejection issues. They offered to examine the gun and try to correct anything necessary if I wanted, even though I'm an armorer. I have no complaints with their response and helpfulness.

Glocks aren't necessarily my first couple of choices for plastic pistols, but they make a fine, serviceable product. I'll continue to own and use the ones I've bought.

BTW, as an armorer for the M&P pistol (2 classes) and the SW99/P99 (3 classes)%2
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:36   #48
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I make it pretty clear what my opinions were fastbolt.
I was pretty much staying on topic and debating the quality of Glock parts. I never questioned your credentials.
Obviously, because I disagreed with you, you questioned mine with the "informed opinion" statement.
Don't assume those who disagree with you don't have experience. That you be a big mistake and i'll leave it at that.
Actually, the "informed opinion" comment was made in general reflection, thinking back over numerous other posts made in other thread topics. Your comment made me think back over other posts (which can be a good thing). Not this one, and not pertaining to what you'd posted. Didn't mean for you to take it that way. I'd have said the same thing if we'd been discussing this subject together over a cup of coffee, and you'd have been better able to realize I wasn't directing it at your comments.

If you never meant to question my experience, perhaps you might have phrased your comments a bit differently? It's not easy to read things like, "Wow! I've found someone who's really in the know!", and know how they mean their comment without being able to see facial expressions & body language, as well as hear it said.

One of the problems of the internet, right.
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Old 11-04-2012, 12:45   #49
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Actually, the "informed opinion" comment was made in general reflection, thinking back over numerous other posts made in other thread topics. Not this one, and not pertaining to what you'd posted. Didn't mean for you to take it that way. I'd have said the same thing if we'd been discussing this subject together over a cup of coffee, and you'd have been better able to realize I wasn't directing it at your comments.

If you never meant to question my experience, perhaps you might have phrased your comments a bit differently? It's not easy to read things like, "Wow! I've found someone who's really in the know!", and know how they mean their comment without being able to see facial expressions & body language, as well as hear it said.

One of the problems of the internet, right.
Fastbolt
I've been a member here a long time. In general, I agree with your comments far more than I disagree. In this case, we'll just agree to disagree.

One thing i've learned for sure!
Never use an IPad with auto-correct when posting on Glocktalk. It sucks
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Old 11-04-2012, 13:21   #50
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Fastbolt
I've been a member here a long time. In general, I agree with your comments far more than I disagree. In this case, we'll just agree to disagree.

One thing i've learned for sure!
Never use an IPad with auto-correct when posting on Glocktalk. It sucks
Made me chuckle about the auto-correct thing.

Not sure where we really disagree on anything. Nobody wants to see reductions in quality, right?

I simply don't think that any and all changes made by manufacturers (or their vendors) should automatically be suspected of having been done to "cut corners & costs", at the expense of quality.

I do, however, think that sometimes a change (revision, vendor spec change, etc) that's made for ease of manufacturing - which may, or may not, be solely for cost-cutting - might result in something that's unexpected (by both the manufacturer and the consumer).

Returning to the "previous method" may not automatically always be the answer, although some adjustment may certainly be in order, allowing the new method (process, etc) to continue to be used.

I don't concern myself with other folks always (or ever) agreeing with me. I change my own opinions all the time, especially when experience indicates it's appropriate.
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Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 11-04-2012 at 13:23..
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