[Trigger Finger]

This really makes me wonder why the government is arming and supplying tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition to the Social Security Administration and the National Weather Service.

I can't figure it out other then perhaps the government is getting ready for an anticipated uprising.

I had no idea that this much ammunition was being bought and who was getting it.

Maybe I need to buy a thousand more rounds of ammo to go with my current stash.

http://www.guns.com/dhs-stockpile-ammunition-11361.html

What do you guys think? Be alert because something is in the works or no big deal!!!

[CJStudent]

I can't open the link right now, but if it's from the previous stories I've read on it, it was a contract for UP TO a particular amount. DHS owns and operates the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, which trains officers and agents from the vast majority of federal law enforcement agencies (including SSA and NWS and many other obscure agencies' Offices of Inspector General Special Agents). Think about how much firearms training is done in LAPD's academy. Then think about how many academies are going on AT ONE TIME on FLETC; it's in the dozens. Think about how many rounds each class uses, and multiply that out. That's just the basic classes, not even counting the advanced training that's going on. Plus all the ammo needed for all of the agencies under DHS to requalify and train under their policies. THAT is why they put out those bids.

[Dukeboy01]

OMG! Wonder if they're going to help the Social Security Administration euthanize old people in order to save the social security system?!!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...n_1854121.html

This goofy conspiracy theory gets circulated every time a Federal agency that people don't usually associate with front line law enforcement makes their ammo purchases.

Probably time to switch out the tin foil lining your hat. You know it expires, right? Actually, that's not right. What happens is that Major League Baseball changes the frequency that they operate on whenever they receive a new directive from the Freemasons, so you need to get a different brand of tinfoil to compensate.

[Patchman]

Probably a whole bunch of non-DHS agencies also piggyback on the DHS contract. And most agencies have both an investigative and a uniform component who are armed.

[CJStudent]

Originally Posted by Patchman

Probably a whole bunch of non-DHS agencies also piggyback on the DHS contract. And most agencies have both an investigative and a uniform component who are armed.

Not to mention the vast amount of various OIGs around; pretty much every major department and most (if not all) smaller independant agencies have them.

[Trigger Finger]

Originally Posted by CJStudent

I can't open the link right now, but if it's from the previous stories I've read on it, it was a contract for UP TO a particular amount. DHS owns and operates the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, which trains officers and agents from the vast majority of federal law enforcement agencies (including SSA and NWS and many other obscure agencies' Offices of Inspector General Special Agents). Think about how much firearms training is done in LAPD's academy. Then think about how many academies are going on AT ONE TIME on FLETC; it's in the dozens. Think about how many rounds each class uses, and multiply that out. That's just the basic classes, not even counting the advanced training that's going on. Plus all the ammo needed for all of the agencies under DHS to requalify and train under their policies. THAT is why they put out those bids.

I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

The site is " http://guns.com/ ". Today's story!

[CJStudent]

Originally Posted by Trigger Finger

I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

The site is " http://guns.com/ ". Today's story!

I don't know about all agencies, but all we shoot with my agency is JHPs. Training, quals, and carrying on duty is all JHPs.

NOAA has a law enforcement arm:

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/ole/

I'm also willing to bet that NWS has an OIG. Plus, I'm also willing to bet the purchase order was for UP TO 46,000 rounds. They bid like that to guarantee they can get all the ammo they can conceivably need at the same price. It's pretty standard with government bids.

[Dragoon44]

What does the DHS need with all this Ammo?

We could tell you, but then we would have to kill you.

[Falling Crow]

Originally Posted by Trigger Finger

I understand all of that but all of this ammo is JHP. You don't need JHP for training or qualifications.

And the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration's National Weather Service is getting 46,000 rounds of 40 S&W Jacketed Hollow Points. For what? I didn't know their were pistol packing weatherman!!!

The site is " http://guns.com/ ". Today's story!

The last time my agency ordered ammunition WIN JHP was cheaper than WIN FMJ. We use nothing but WIN JHP for everything now.

[Newcop761]

Wow. Somebody must have been a captain..or a chief.

I qualify quarterly. (For those of you alarmed by the article, that means FOUR times each year.)

Between qualification and training I shoot about 200 - 250 rounds on a training day.
That means I use about 1,000 rounds of .40 a year. Contrary to the linked article, we only shoot our carry ammo. Wasteful, yeah I think so, but that's how we do it.

CJStudent already mentioned FLETC. He didn't mention that there are several FLETC locations:
FLETC Glynco
FLETC Artesia
FLETC Charleston
FLETC Cheltenham
FLETC International (Hungary, Thailand, Botswana, and El Salvador)

On top of that here are the majority of gun-toters that fall under the umbrella of DHS. This doesn't include DHS-OIG and I didn't include the U.S. Coast Guard. I know they carry the Sig P229 in .40 also.

8,500 Special Agents HSI
7,000 Deportation Officers & Immigration Enforcement Agents
21,370 Border Patrol agents
21,186 CBP Officers
4,400 +/- Secret Service Special Agents + Uniformed Divison
???? Federal Air Marshals

[CJStudent]

Originally Posted by Newcop761

Wow. Somebody must have been a captain..or a chief.

I qualify quarterly. (For those of you alarmed by the article, that means FOUR times each year.)

Between qualification and training I shoot about 200 - 250 rounds on a training day.
That means I use about 1,000 rounds of .40 a year. Contrary to the linked article, we only shoot our carry ammo. Wasteful, yeah I think so, but that's how we do it.

CJStudent already mentioned FLETC. He didn't mention that there are several FLETC locations:
FLETC Glynco
FLETC Artesia
FLETC Charleston
FLETC Cheltenham
FLETC International (Hungary, Thailand, Botswana, and El Salvador)

On top of that here are the majority of gun-toters that fall under the umbrella of DHS. This doesn't include DHS-OIG and I didn't include the U.S. Coast Guard. I know they carry the Sig P229 in .40 also.

8,500 Special Agents HSI
7,000 Deportation Officers & Immigration Enforcement Agents
21,370 Border Patrol agents
21,186 CBP Officers
4,400 +/- Secret Service Special Agents + Uniformed Divison
???? Federal Air Marshals

I'd forgotten about all the other FLETC locations; we only send people to Glynco, so that's all I tend to think about.

[CAcop]

There is acase law on point that states officers need to train with the ammo they use on duty. Of course my department does that every five years.

46,000 rounds in nothing.

Figure 2 quals 50 rounds each.

Training on each qual day an easy 200 rounds could be fired.

500 rounds per officer per year.

46,000 rounds=92 officers for one year.

[Paul53]

Second or third thread on this topic, maybe more.

[L-1]

I am at a loss as to what the problem is.

At my agency, each officer shoots 50 rounds per month at the range and qualifies once per quarter. On top of that, each officer probably shoot another 100 round per year practicing new drills. That comes out to 700 rounds per officer, per year. We shoot the same ammo at the range as we shoot in the field for reasons of civil liability. This way if someone sues us over an officer involved shooting, their lawyer can't claim we were unfamiliar with the characteristics of our duty ammo because we only shoot ball at the range.

I am going to assume the Fed follow a similar protocol. The article says the Feds bought 40,220,000 rounds. By my agency's standards that's enough annual practice ammo for 54,457 officers. So how many cops do the Feds have? Let's count -

8,500 Special Agents HSI
7,000 Deportation Officers & Immigration Enforcement Agents
21,370 Border Patrol agents
21,186 CBP Officers
4,400 +/- Secret Service Special Agents + Uniformed Division
295 Social Security Special Agents

Total 62,751

I'm sure there are a lot more, but lets just go with these.

62,751 Feds X 700 rounds per year = 43,925,700 rounds needed

OOPS. It looks like the Feds didn't order enough ammo for everyone to practice monthly at the range over the next fiscal year. They are either going to have to order 3,705,700 more rounds, or someone is going to have to skip going to the range, or they are going to have to stop shooting bad guys in the field.

[lawman800]

I forgot where I read it but someone did the math for every agency and every training and qual and all that and the math works out to about maybe a few year's worth of ammo for everything. Relatively speaking, it's not that big of a deal compared to how much ammo some of us hoard.

[Trigger Finger]

Originally Posted by Paul53

Second or third thread on this topic, maybe more.

This might be the third or tenth article on this topic but I am basing it on an article that came out today, 11-2-2012.

It seems everyone thinks this is a normal amount of ammunition to be purchased and I suppose it is, now that it was explained to me. I did not know that DHS provided ammo for all these other branches and sections.

On LAPD we qualified every other month with FMJ practice ammo and JHP duty rounds twice a year! I am surprised that any agency or department with 500 officers or more would qualify every time with JHP ammo!!

And I am surprised that the Weather Service and Social Security has armed officers.

I guess I stand corrected!!

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by Trigger Finger

This really makes me wonder why the government is arming and supplying tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition to the Social Security Administration and the National Weather Service.

I can't figure it out other then perhaps the government is getting ready for an anticipated uprising.

I had no idea that this much ammunition was being bought and who was getting it.

Maybe I need to buy a thousand more rounds of ammo to go with my current stash.

http://www.guns.com/dhs-stockpile-ammunition-11361.html

What do you guys think? Be alert because something is in the works or no big deal!!!

I am really suprised this silliness ended up here of all places.

Every part of government has an investigative arm, even the postal service. Now, consider the fact that everyone is required to qualify four times a year, and there is a lot of "range play" as well that consume rounds: shoot and move, down and disabled, on and on. Then consider that they are required to issue duty ammo, and practice ammo, and some folks are great shots and others are not. So, you find some people requalifying on range day, that is a buttload of ammo.

There is no grand conspiiracy going on. A lot more ammo goes to the military and no one is running around declaring the sky is falling.

[merlynusn]

We use FMJ ammo to qualify and practice with. We have 4 range days per year for a total of around 250 rounds. Once every 2 years, we shoot our duty ammo (used to be every qual, and then every year).

I didn't realize that DHS bought all the ammo for everyone at FLETC, I would have figured each agency did that. I also didn't realize that you guys only shoot JHP for everything even training.

[Kingarthurhk]

Originally Posted by merlynusn

We use FMJ ammo to qualify and practice with. We have 4 range days per year for a total of around 250 rounds. Once every 2 years, we shoot our duty ammo (used to be every qual, and then every year).

I didn't realize that DHS bought all the ammo for everyone at FLETC, I would have figured each agency did that. I also didn't realize that you guys only shoot JHP for everything even training.

It is a package deal. Also, the philosophy is to qualify with what you are going to carry, so it has never been full metal jackets, it has always been hollow points.

[samurairabbi]

The reason for that massive ammo procurement should be obvious: they're stocking up for the Y2K crisis.

[Morris]

Alex Jones.

His outlet was one of the first to breathlessly report this on-line. The problem is, when you do the math and breakdowns, you realize that it isn't much considering the numbers. As others have written, sometimes JHPs are cheaper per case than FMJs.

If nothing else, it drive traffic to Jones' website so he can peddle more tactical and end of the world stuff and garner more ad money.

[Ohio Copper]

I work for a very small department and we order about 10k rounds each year.

The larger SOs qualify 300+ employees twice a year. They order and receive 40-50k rounds a year.

It is plausible for them to be purchasing that much ammo in one shot.


" I was wondering what would break first; your spirit or your body."

[Trigger Finger]

"Now, consider the fact that everyone is required to qualify four times a year, and there is a lot of "range play" as well that consume rounds: shoot and move, down and disabled, on and on."
"It is a package deal. Also, the philosophy is to qualify with what you are going to carry, so it has never been full metal jackets, it has always been hollow points. "
Kingarthurhk! What are you basing this on? Who says "everyone" is required to qualify four times a year? And what does "package deal" mean? And how can you possibly compare the ammo used by the military, fighting a war, to a law enforcement agency?

And anyone who says JHP rounds are cheaper then FMJ rounds have not shopped around enough for the best price! Why do you think every major police department uses FMJ rounds to qualify? According to you it's because they cost more!!
30 years with the largest police department on the west coast and I have not heard of any of this.

[Newcop761]

My "police department" has about 50% more gun toters than LAPD.

We are required to qualify 4 times per year. Period.
Kingarthurhk knows this first hand.

Border Patrol (which has twice the gun-toters than LAPD) shoots a course of fire which consumes more rounds than the ICE qualification.... The round count adds up.

[CAcop]

State bid in CA you can get 64gr Powerpoint cheaper than FMJ and Win Ranger Bonded in .40 than FMJ. I suspect it is because of the CHP. We get Fords far cheaper than at the local fleet dealers when we piggyback off of the CHP. State Parks used to piggyback 4006s with the CHP until recently.

I think ammo manufacturers will give you a big price break if you agree to buy in bulk. If I were DHS or any large agency I would buy in multi year amounts to save money. Say every 4 years buy the ammo you think you will need for the next 5 years.