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Old 10-24-2012, 09:39   #141
Glock36shooter
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Guys... I think we should let this one go. Peace Warrior is obviously mentally disturbed or challenged or something. I'm not even saying this to be funny or make light of him. It's just going to lead to the insanity posted by the other crazy fellas that think the Devil conducted genetic experiments that gave rise to the dinosaurs. You simply cannot reach this level of intellectual dysfunction with reason or logic. Doesn't matter what the facts are. Doesn't matter what reality is. Peace Warrior just going to keep living in his fantasy world where he thinks he knows what he's talking about. People like Peace Warrior, Snow Bird and that crazy fella with the lion and lamb avatar that talks about the devil covering up all signs of creation to hide it from scientists, I think, just come here so that SOMEONE... ANYONE will pay them some attention and listen to their nonsense. You ever been in Waffle House at 3am after a concert or going out partying or something and there is always that one creepy dude that obviously comes there every night because the staff all know him. No one who knows him wants to talk to him so he comes there to talk to strangers who will be too polite to tell him to go away. And then he'll waste all your time talking about nonsense like how he's had all this bad luck because he tricked the devil once and now the devil is trying to get revenge... or how he was a navy seal sniper in vietnam and they still call him for missions every once in a while... That guy? Yeah... that's the kinda guys we're dealing with here.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:45   #142
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No, actually, I base my post on the research and studies of 100's of scientists whose only claim to the cosmos being able to formulate/create a star is to have 20 stars nova (i.e., blow up) pretty much simultaneously, and "nearby one another," in order to have even a small chance of forming a new star.
What are the names of these scientists? What are the titles of the papers they have published on this topic?
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So knowing, if it takes 20 stars blowing up in order to have the processes in motion so as to form a new star, wouldn't this actually deplete the number of stars in the cosmos? Lose 20 to gain 1?!?
No one, other than you, knows any such thing.
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Hey, this logic would be great sell to the American public so as to eliminate debt, but it will NEVER work to harmonize what is observed in the universe with the Big bang theory.
Rather than making a completely baseless assertion, why don't you try producing some evidence in support of your claims, for variety if nothing else.
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Old 10-24-2012, 12:51   #143
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-am-, or geko45, (ETA) or artificial grape, just so as to make our respective points more clear and on even keel with one another, please remind me, or if i am wrong please inform me, when it comes to cosmological heat, or terrestrial heat, these types of heat are the only forms of energy that have to have a medium in which to disperse or dissipate in? Is this not true? If so, all well and good as this is a benchmark upon the position I am taking on this issue, but if not, please correct me as I do want to know the truth.

Thanks...
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Geko45, just so as to make our respective points more clear and on even keel with one another, please remind me, or if i am wrong please inform me, when it comes to cosmological heat, or terrestrial heat, these types of heat are the only forms of energy that have to have a medium in which to disperse or dissipate in? Is this not true? If so, all well and good as this is a benchmark upon the position I am taking on this issue, but if not, please correct me as I do want to know the truth.
As usual, I have no idea what you're talking about. Perhaps you could provide some supporting references from the scientific literature so we could endeavor to understand what you're talking about.
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Old 10-24-2012, 16:23   #144
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Point of order: Before you rest a case, you have first have had to make a case, which you did not. Nice try though...
Not if someone makes it for me............

Pssssst.....That would be you.
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Old 10-24-2012, 17:29   #145
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Geko45, just so as to make our respective points more clear and on even keel with one another, please remind me, or if i am wrong please inform me, when it comes to cosmological heat, or terrestrial heat, these types of heat are the only forms of energy that have to have a medium in which to disperse or dissipate in? Is this not true? If so, all well and good as this is a benchmark upon the position I am taking on this issue, but if not, please correct me as I do want to know the truth.
You're thinking of convective and conductive needing a medium to transfer. Convective needs a medium to set up convective currents in and conductive needs a medium to conduct through. Only radiant heat (infrared radiation) can travel through a vacuum. Nothing to do at all with whether the heat comes from the earth or the cosmos.

Last edited by Gunhaver; 10-24-2012 at 17:30..
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Old 10-24-2012, 22:48   #146
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
-am-, or geko45, (ETA) or artificial grape, just so as to make our respective points more clear and on even keel with one another, please remind me, or if i am wrong please inform me, when it comes to cosmological heat, or terrestrial heat, these types of heat are the only forms of energy that have to have a medium in which to disperse or dissipate in? Is this not true? If so, all well and good as this is a benchmark upon the position I am taking on this issue, but if not, please correct me as I do want to know the truth.

Thanks...
For the avoidance of doubt, why don't you clearly state your specific assertion and provide the evidence to support it, and we can take it from there.

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Old 10-25-2012, 11:38   #147
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I find the sound of crickets soothing...
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Old 10-25-2012, 21:48   #148
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
I find the sound of crickets soothing...
It's been crickets since June 15th, 2011 when this exchange took place:

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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
As far as I'm concerned, current scientific knowledge and research indicates that either the stars were created, or although scientifically impossible, stars formed all by themselves anyway.
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Could you please provide links to both the research demonstrating the impossibility of stars forming by themselves, and the research indicating they were "created"?
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:23   #149
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Not even sure what the heck you are talking about here with "comological" and "terrestial" heat, seems nonsensical. There is only heat and if it makes you feel any better, yes, heat can only be transfered from matter to matter via physical contact. ...
Okay, heat has to have a medium in which to "move."


Terrestrial heat and cosmological heat are two different concepts, which is why I differentiate them. As well, some people have argued with me that cosmological heat would somehow "act differently" than heat here on the Earth under extremes of gravity available in outer space. I was asking you the question so as to avoid later confusion.

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... I would also point out that Boyle's Law does not take into consideration the effects of gravity. Or, to say it differently, Boyle's Law is only valid in a system where gravitational effects are so negligible as to not be worth calculating.
This is strikingly similar to what others have argued with me as well. So let me ask you, "Boyles Law only applies to gases when they are in a confined space and not affected by gravity?" This is what you are saying?
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:34   #150
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Gases here on earth neither "condense," "contract," nor "clump together" on their own. There is not enough gravitational pull from gas atoms to cause them to condense.

Now, lets put these gases into outer space. HELLO! Space is a vacuum! If gases here on earth do not "contract," how are they going to do so in a vacuum such as is outer space? However, a star does certainly draw gases into its matter, but it is ALREADY a star. It is a fantastic undermining of Science in general to believe that a star could simply form by the way of gravitational pull.

Lastly, again, ALL OF THE GAS CLOUDS IN OUTER SPACE ARE SHOWN TO BE EXPANDING. How do you magically get one part of a cloud to contract? Sorry, it has never been observed as it never happened. In physical Science, we learned that any gases introduced into a vacuum would immediately expand. Stars forming by themselves won't ever happen based on actual Science.
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:43   #151
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Originally Posted by Gunhaver View Post
You're thinking of convective and conductive needing a medium to transfer. Convective needs a medium to set up convective currents in and conductive needs a medium to conduct through. Only radiant heat (infrared radiation) can travel through a vacuum. Nothing to do at all with whether the heat comes from the earth or the cosmos.
Thanks.
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Old 10-28-2012, 03:52   #152
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What are the names of these scientists? What are the titles of the papers they have published on this topic?
No one, other than you, knows any such thing.
Rather than making a completely baseless assertion, why don't you try producing some evidence in support of your claims, for variety if nothing else.
Simply google: scientists explain explosions of population III stars and or first-generation stars

ETA: Also google: star novae and overcoming the helium mass 4 gap
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Old 10-28-2012, 07:12   #153
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ETA: Also google: star novae and overcoming the helium mass 4 gap
Please provide a single cite from a cosmologist or nuclear physicist that truly believes this to be an insurmountable barrier who isn't also pushing a creationist apologetics agenda (i.e. one who isn't subject to confirmation bias).

The problem is that you are thinking in a simplistic linear fashion (like most creationists do) and errantly assuming that the only way to get from He4 to heavier elements is through He5. You are also making the mistake of assuming that just because the probability of a specific reaction is extremely small that this equates to it being "impossible". You are simply wrong on both counts.

The triple alpha process (aka "helium burning") can make carbon through the combination of two He4 nuclei into beryllium-8 (Be8) and then the Be8 can combine with another He4 to make carbon-12 (C12). The carbon (in some cases) can then fuse with yet another He4 to make O16. Lithium-5 (Li5) can also arise out this type of reaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_alpha_process
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Old 10-28-2012, 13:50   #154
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Gases here on earth neither "condense," "contract," nor "clump together" on their own. There is not enough gravitational pull from gas atoms to cause them to condense.

Now, lets put these gases into outer space. HELLO! Space is a vacuum! If gases here on earth do not "contract," how are they going to do so in a vacuum such as is outer space? However, a star does certainly draw gases into its matter, but it is ALREADY a star. It is a fantastic undermining of Science in general to believe that a star could simply form by the way of gravitational pull.
I recognize that you're a Young Earth Creationist and as such science denial has been elevated to an art form, but you have to pretend to try. Why would you suggest that if gases don't contract on earth that they wouldn't in space? Any research to support the assertion that gas would be more likely to collapse on earth rather than in space?

Let's think... what on earth might interfere with gases self-gravitating on earth? Hint: the approximate mass is 5.97 × 10^24 kilograms.

What mass of gas are you considering on earth compared to what mass of gas in space?

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Lastly, again, ALL OF THE GAS CLOUDS IN OUTER SPACE ARE SHOWN TO BE EXPANDING. How do you magically get one part of a cloud to contract? Sorry, it has never been observed as it never happened. In physical Science, we learned that any gases introduced into a vacuum would immediately expand. Stars forming by themselves won't ever happen based on actual Science.
I suspect I'm just naive in this regard, but is there any chance that you would care to share a refereed (peer-reviewed) paper that supports your assertions that "ALL OF THE GAS CLOUDS IN OUTER SPACE ARE SHOWN TO BE EXPANDING" and "Stars forming by themselves won't ever happen based on actual Science"? Given that the request was first to put to you over 16 months ago I suspect I have my answer.

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Old 10-28-2012, 13:51   #155
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Simply google: scientists explain explosions of population III stars and or first-generation stars

ETA: Also google: star novae and overcoming the helium mass 4 gap
No.

You are making the claims, it is incumbent upon you to provide the evidence and justification for those claims. I realize you can't (because they don't exist) but it isn't my job to go off on a fruitless google adventure to try and figure out what you actually mean.

Given your demonstrated failure to consider or comprehend the numerous observations and resulting publications on stellar formation, you'll understand if I don't hold my breath waiting.
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Old 10-28-2012, 13:54   #156
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Gases here on earth neither "condense," "contract," nor "clump together" on their own. There is not enough gravitational pull from gas atoms to cause them to condense.

Now, lets put these gases into outer space. HELLO! Space is a vacuum! If gases here on earth do not "contract," how are they going to do so in a vacuum such as is outer space? However, a star does certainly draw gases into its matter, but it is ALREADY a star. It is a fantastic undermining of Science in general to believe that a star could simply form by the way of gravitational pull.

Lastly, again, ALL OF THE GAS CLOUDS IN OUTER SPACE ARE SHOWN TO BE EXPANDING. How do you magically get one part of a cloud to contract? Sorry, it has never been observed as it never happened. In physical Science, we learned that any gases introduced into a vacuum would immediately expand. Stars forming by themselves won't ever happen based on actual Science.
Is there any specific reason, other than being completely wrong, that you haven't provided any references for these assertions?
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Old 10-28-2012, 18:56   #157
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No.

You are making the claims, it is incumbent upon you to provide the evidence and justification for those claims. I realize you can't (because they don't exist) but it isn't my job to go off on a fruitless google adventure to try and figure out what you actually mean.

Given your demonstrated failure to consider or comprehend the numerous observations and resulting publications on stellar formation, you'll understand if I don't hold my breath waiting.
No, I am speaking with someone else and you keep interrupting. If you want to a rational dialogue, start a topic on which you'd like to discuss.

We've, you and I, have debated on GT for years. You're willingly ignorant and refuse to accept what is no0t inline with your presuppositions and evolutionary worldview. Okay, I get it, but I don't have to continually entertain your irrational, obsessive (if not psychotic) extremism when it comes to the topic of the theory of evolution and or the Holy Bible.

Simply put, I am not here to try to change your mind -am-, and I am sure not obligated to respond tit-for-tat to your incessant, out of place postings. If you want to discuss a particular topic, fine, let me know what it is, but stop trying to interrupt other ongoing discussions.
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Old 10-28-2012, 19:28   #158
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Please provide a single cite from a cosmologist or nuclear physicist that truly believes this to be an insurmountable barrier who isn't also pushing a creationist apologetics agenda (i.e. one who isn't subject to confirmation bias).

The problem is that you are thinking in a simplistic linear fashion (like most creationists do) and errantly assuming that the only way to get from He4 to heavier elements is through He5. You are also making the mistake of assuming that just because the probability of a specific reaction is extremely small that this equates to it being "impossible". You are simply wrong on both counts.

The triple alpha process (aka "helium burning") can make carbon through the combination of two He4 nuclei into beryllium-8 (Be8) and then the Be8 can combine with another He4 to make carbon-12 (C12). The carbon (in some cases) can then fuse with yet another He4 to make O16. Lithium-5 (Li5) can also arise out this type of reaction.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_alpha_process
If you are going to invoke the triple alpha process to overcome the gap then you've obviously only recently googled anything about this subject. In other words, the 13.7 to 20 billion year timeline is no where near sufficient to attribute "gap jumping" to the triple alpha process as this process take WAY TOO LONG to support the current timeline for the universe.

Can you find anything else? I mean, even if you're given this highly unprovable, improbable process working as theorized, where is all the additional billions of years worth of time you will need to jump the gaps?

As for a citation, here ya go: This small concentration of Be-8 can begin to undergo reactions with other He-4 nuclei to produce an excited state of the mass-12 isotope of Carbon. This excited state is unstable, but a few of these excited Carbon nuclei emit a gamma-ray quickly enough to become stable before they disintegrate. This extremely improbable sequence is called the triple-alpha process because the net effect is to combine 3 alpha particles (that is, 3 He-4 nuclei) to form a C-12 nucleus.


"There has not been enough time since the beginning [i.e., the big bang] for such an agglomeration to gather together out of an originally homogeneous universe." Science News (1979)
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"Love 'Em All!!! Let Jehovah sort 'em out." - The Holy Bible
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 10-28-2012 at 19:30..
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Old 10-28-2012, 19:41   #159
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Is there any specific reason, other than being completely wrong, that you haven't provided any references for these assertions?
You're a physicist and you need references? Hey, I know of no mechanism in outer space that can clump gases together so as to produce a star. hey, this very well may be so because I am simply ignorant of the mechanism. I studied topic for a long time, and I haven't found anything but highly improbable theories, as opposed to actual Science, to reveal a mechanism for star formation.


Can you show me an observable instance of gasses clumping together? (NOTE: Please do not post yet more photos of nebulae as everyone knows that they are expanding and NOT condensing/contracting.)
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Old 10-28-2012, 19:49   #160
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You're a physicist and you need references?
Here's a hint, we already know you can't find any. Why, because what you are proposing is nonsensical and impossible.

Quote:
Hey, I know of no mechanism in outer space that can clump gases together so as to produce a star.
You aren't aware of gravity? Really?



Quote:
Please do not post yet more photos of nebulae as everyone knows that they are expanding and NOT condensing/contracting.)
I call BS on this as well. I don't think your assertion is true. Please provide references that all known nebulae are expanding.
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