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Old 10-20-2012, 04:14   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post

I'll start with history.

[Edit: I see Glock36Shooter already raised this one.]

Supposedly, jesus was born during an empire wide census ordered by Caeser Augustus and carried out by local Roman governor Quirinius. ...
Please see post # 58.

You two should actually read the Holy Bible before setting up such a weak strawman.
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:19   #62
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:27   #63
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
As for science.



Enough said.
Let's see what the Holy Bible says...

Numbers 22:22-34, KJV


And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants [were] with him. And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall [being] on this side, and a wall on that side. And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again. And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where [was] no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left. And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff. And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. And the ass said unto Balaam, [Am] not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since [I was] thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because [thy] way is perverse before me: And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive. And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.

Balaam's donkey didn't speak until "...the LORD opened the mouth of the ass..."

Again, if the donkey just up and started talking by itself, I would have a problem with this one too; however, the Creator the that donkey, and every other donkey, and every thing that has life moved to "open the mouth of the [donkey]."

I'm not an expert on vocal chords, but I've heard donkeys braying across a 3 acre field. Knowing the Creator of vocal chords moved on this donkey, I believe every word of Number's (KJV) account concerning balaam and that donkey.

I guess we can refer to it as a miracle, or you can say I only have faith this happened. Both former and latter work for me.

On to the next one...
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:28   #64
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Oh my, we are becoming upset aren't we? You'll do much better in life if you realize that you just can't dicate rules to other people. I know that runs contrary to your theistic worldview, but that worldview is archaic and obsolete anyway and you'd be better off without it.
Wow... just wow...

This is only a thread on the internet man.
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:47   #65
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Let's look at what Luke actually said.

Luke 2:1-3KJV

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. ([And] this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.


(Corrections in bold red.)

Wow, much ado still going on in this thread about nothing. (My bad actually, I should have went to my Holy Bible instead of to the book shelf for extra biblical references in the first place. mea culpa.)


The above KJV scripture quote is what Luke actually said of the entire matter. Now please, simply, tell me no more about this supposed contradiction?

For instance, the Holy Bible, and Luke, are merely saying that the first time people were taxed was when Cyrenius was governor of Syria. It did NOT say Cyrenius was governor of Syria at the time that Jesus was born.

Again, my bad as I should have went biblical first.

On to the next one....
You might have a point, and man what a crazy work that would be, if the author of Luke had stopped with verse three. He didn't though:
Quote:
And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of DavidIn obedience to the command in the passage you quoted, which took place during the governorship of Cyrenius To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.Mary was pregnant at this time. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered. And she brought forth her firstborn sonAs Mary was a virgin when Jesus was born, this must have been Him, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.
Sounds like the text relates a taxation done during both the time Quirinius was governor and when Jesus was born. I applaud you for abandoning your earlier untenable theory about Quirinius, but this one is no more defensible.
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:53   #66
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
(Me paraphrase in red)

Just exactly which/what "fossil records" scientifically prove the Earth to be billions and billions of years old?
Fossils don't prove the Earth is billions of years old, because they're not that old. However, they do prove the Earth is between tens of thousands and millions of years old.
Radiometric dating is what proves the Earth is billions of years old.
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You've been offered numerous opportunities to produce evidence of a global flood. You've refused to do so. Do your indicate you'll now share it?
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:55   #67
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"Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...[he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." - Sir William Mitchell Ramsay (1851-1939)


Quote:
Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
Imagine the logistics of that. Everyone has to stop what they're doing and walk to the city of their births to register for a census. What if they didn't? How would anyone know? Wouldn't it have been simpler and more accurate to have local officials count the people in the cities where they lived. The census story is obviously made up to have Jesus born in Bethlehem.
You do not understand history too well, but since you've opened the door for conjecture, I'll walk through it as well.

Everyone did not have to walk to their hometowns UNLESS THEY HAD LEFT THEM ; additionally, it may have been as simple as leaving the suburbs for downtown, which is something they might have done everyday to get to work. Unless, extrapolating further your flawed logic, the Romans should have had multiple "county seat courthouses." You know, like one in every neighborhood in suburbia.

Anyway, Luke advises that Joseph went to Bethlehem due to being a direct descendant of [King] David, which might mean that the Jews had the rule (hint hint) about being counted only at your own "hometown." Luke obviously knew of Romans rules and ways due to his traveling so much.

Here is what Luke actually said:

Luke 2:1-6, KJV

And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. ([And] this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city. And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child. And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:56   #68
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
Is it safe to assume that you worship at the altar of time?

In other words, it took billions and billions of years? Creation is a matter of faith for both Christians like me, or evolutionists (hereafter: evos) like you, and this thread is about the Holy Bible being accurate as it relates to both history and science.
No, it isn't. Scientists have evidence to support their dating of the Universe and the Earth.
Quote:
Anyone can claim faith in something. Heck, there are people on GT who use faith to invoke the existence of the spaghetti monster or the likes of odin as Creator.

I'll admit I have PURE faith in the Earth, Moon, Sun, Stars and everything else seen and unseen only being between 6000 and 13,000 years old, and you know what, if you're intellectually honest, you'll likewise admit that you have faith in all life on planet earth coming from a rock (or space aliens, or a spaghetti monster, or odin etcetera).
Which explains why you're willing to ignore the science, but in no way damages or disproves the scientific conclusions.
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Nether my faith in creation, nor your faith in creation, can be tested empirically utilizing either the historical sciences or clinical sciences, which is why it is called faith.
It's adorable how you try to set up your creationist absurdity as equal to science and evidence, but we've done this dance before. Are you actually going to participate this time or will you be running away to hide again?
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:57   #69
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Well, you hadn't even addressed all the problems presented in the first post, but on this point you are mistaken. From 12-1BC, Quirinius was leading a military campaign in Galatia (modern day Turkey).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinius
I completely admit I may have been wrong as I went to an extra biblical text when I should reached for the Holy Bible Itself. Please see post # 58.

mea culpa.
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:58   #70
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Originally Posted by Animal Mother View Post
What evidence is there for the earlier term as governor of Syria? How do you reconcile this supposed term with his known presence in Galatia during the last decade BCE?
What evidence is there for such a census? Is there any record of a census being taken in Palestine in 7 BCE, as there is for the one in 7 CE? Is there any record of people being required to return to their ancestral homes, as the Bible claims, in either 7 BCE or 7 CE?
I completely admit I may have been wrong as I went to an extra biblical text when I should reached for the Holy Bible Itself. Please see post # 58.

mea culpa.
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Old 10-20-2012, 04:59   #71
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
No he didn't. Varus was governor of Syria up until Herod's death. Quirinuis was a politician for many years. But he did not become governor of Syria until AFTER Herod's death.
I completely admit I may have been wrong as I went to an extra biblical text when I should reached for the Holy Bible Itself. Please see post # 58.

mea culpa.
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:06   #72
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Internal contradictions:

and...

and...

and...
yadda, yadda, yadda, and yadda.

I'll take the first one as now you are trying to find problems where there are none.

Let's pretend a guy hangs himself and dies while it's a warm night/day. Say nobody finds the suicide for a while. When the guy is found, let's say they cut the rope.

Do you not think the tightness of the rope along with the dead body starting to rot could have caused bloating so as when he hits the ground his stomach burst open?

The rest are super simple if you only try to understand.

On to the next one...
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:06   #73
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Originally Posted by Booker View Post
I just did a search of the KJV and this guy Quirinius is not mentioned. Not even in Luke!

http://www.biblegateway.com/quicksea...qs_version=KJV
Please see post # 58.
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:11   #74
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
"Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...[he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians." - Sir William Mitchell Ramsay (1851-1939)
Ramsay being the guy who developed the "two terms as governor" hypothesis you so recently abandoned. Considering how faulty a historian Ramsay proved to be in this case, should we give much weight to his opinion of Luke?
Quote:
You do not understand history too well, but since you've opened the door for conjecture, I'll walk through it as well.

Everyone did not have to walk to their hometowns UNLESS THEY HAD LEFT THEM ; additionally, it may have been as simple as leaving the suburbs for downtown, which is something they might have done everyday to get to work. Unless, extrapolating further your flawed logic, the Romans should have had multiple "county seat courthouses." You know, like one in every neighborhood in suburbia.
Do you have any record of such travel being required by any Roman census? Also, while I'll refrain from the insults you interject so liberally, I'll point out that the Biblical account doesn't involve people returning to their hometown, but to the town where their ancestral line originated. A very different thing.
Quote:
Anyway, Luke advises that Joseph went to Bethlehem due to being a direct descendant of [King] David, which might mean that the Jews had the rule (hint hint) about being counted only at your own "hometown." Luke obviously knew of Romans rules and ways due to his traveling so much.
Who was taking the census, the Jews (Herod the Great in this instance) or the Romans (Caesar Augustus)? Let me answer that for you, it was the latter. Why would they follow a supposed Jewish practice (for which there is no evidence) when it would not only aid their intended goal (taxation) but would actually make it significantly more difficult, unless they were going to require people to continue returning to their ancestral origins to pay those taxes when it came time to collect?
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:13   #75
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
PEACE WARRIOR... I'M WAITING! You continue to run that mouth and back it up with nothing. Surely your magic book has the answers you need.
"Dude, take a chill pill or something man."


HINT: Don't look for me tomorrow or you will be severely disappointed.

HINT: M-F some people have to work so I may or may not be on everyday. Life happens. This thread will be here whenever we get here.



Lastly, I don't live at this computer and this time of year (for Florida) is muzzle loader season. The only reason I am here this morning is because my brother had to bail on our scheduled trip this morning.


Just think... I could have been out in the woods this morning hunting and instead I'm here reading these diatribes and emotional rants. Oh the humanity...
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:18   #76
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
That is for sure. Tell that to Peace Warrior who claims the Bible is scientifically accurate.
So far so good. (Heck, I mean honestly, you're so ignorant of the Holy Bible that you're relying the "Luke controversies." Over two centuries of people beating on Luke's retelling of events in the Holy Bible only made Luke spot on accurate over the years.)

I admit, secular archeology had to catch up with Luke, but hey, some people refuse to believe in the Creator, He is Jehovah, and insist on doing things the hard way. Luke knew the Truth and the facts before secular archaeology in a lot of cases. The naysayers are still playing catch up to brother Luke's knowledge base. Oh well...
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:23   #77
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Originally Posted by Roering View Post
... By the way, it's not meant to be a science book.

Cheers.
The Holy Bible is NOT a science book, but it is scientifically accurate to an exacting degree.

(Like the thread so far? Stick around, when all this muck gets out of the way, I'm gonna start in the things the Holy Bible knows and knew that a lot of the evos or secular science never knew until very recently.)
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:31   #78
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Originally Posted by Peace Warrior View Post
In reference to the differing accounts of the death of Judas Iscariot

Let's pretend a guy hangs himself and dies while it's a warm night/day. Say nobody finds the suicide for a while. When the guy is found, let's say they cut the rope.

Do you not think the tightness of the rope along with the dead body starting to rot could have caused bloating so as when he hits the ground his stomach burst open?

The rest are super simple if you only try to understand.
Your position is that each writer forgot or neglected to include significant parts of the story? How is that substantively different than the accounts being wrong? Even if we accept this rationalization, how do you explain the error in Matthew 27:9, attempting to relate the story of Judas to an account from Jeremiah (Jeremy in the KJV) when the story is actually found in Zechariah?
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:32   #79
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Let's see what the Holy Bible says...

Numbers 22:22-34, KJV


And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants [were] with him. And the ass saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and the ass turned aside out of the way, and went into the field: and Balaam smote the ass, to turn her into the way. But the angel of the LORD stood in a path of the vineyards, a wall [being] on this side, and a wall on that side. And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she thrust herself unto the wall, and crushed Balaam's foot against the wall: and he smote her again. And the angel of the LORD went further, and stood in a narrow place, where [was] no way to turn either to the right hand or to the left. And when the ass saw the angel of the LORD, she fell down under Balaam: and Balaam's anger was kindled, and he smote the ass with a staff. And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Balaam said unto the ass, Because thou hast mocked me: I would there were a sword in mine hand, for now would I kill thee. And the ass said unto Balaam, [Am] not I thine ass, upon which thou hast ridden ever since [I was] thine unto this day? was I ever wont to do so unto thee? And he said, Nay. Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because [thy] way is perverse before me: And the ass saw me, and turned from me these three times: unless she had turned from me, surely now also I had slain thee, and saved her alive. And Balaam said unto the angel of the LORD, I have sinned; for I knew not that thou stoodest in the way against me: now therefore, if it displease thee, I will get me back again.

Balaam's donkey didn't speak until "...the LORD opened the mouth of the ass..."

Again, if the donkey just up and started talking by itself, I would have a problem with this one too; however, the Creator the that donkey, and every other donkey, and every thing that has life moved to "open the mouth of the [donkey]."

I'm not an expert on vocal chords, but I've heard donkeys braying across a 3 acre field. Knowing the Creator of vocal chords moved on this donkey, I believe every word of Number's (KJV) account concerning balaam and that donkey.

I guess we can refer to it as a miracle, or you can say I only have faith this happened. Both former and latter work for me.

On to the next one...
Believing this really happened is irrational.
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Old 10-20-2012, 05:33   #80
Peace Warrior
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialGrape View Post
You're not still sour that he proved that it's "scientifically impossible" for stars to form by declaring it as fact are you?



-ArtificialGrape
Stars do not form from the "dust" or gases of nebulea as they are scientifically shown to be expanding at phenomenal rates. They are NOT contracting ( or their word: condensing) in on themselves and producing new stars.

This "a star is being born," or "star nursery" myths are made up by the evos in order to account for newer (last half of 1900's) scientific discoveries that blow star evolution out of the water.

Two faith statements:

1) After the big bang, in which NOTHING exploded , stars began to form themselves, began evolving, and as well they continue to form themselves at the present time.

2) The Creator created the stars as well as every other thing in the entire universe.

Two big leaps of faith, but even small kids know that # 2 is easier to have faith in as far what science shows us today.



Once again, both Christians and evos have faith in certain things. Matter of fact, a lot of the time, the only real difference between Christians and evos once both are forced to be without true scientific foundations is the fact that almost all Christians will admit they have faith for certain things whereas almost all evo's will not admit to having faith.
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Last edited by Peace Warrior; 10-20-2012 at 05:38..
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