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Old 10-17-2012, 12:32   #101
Phaze5ive
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What if in the very, very distant future technology becomes so advanced that EVERYTHING can be manufactured for next-to-nothing by individually-owned machines and there is really nothing to covet because everything is so readily available and accessible?
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Old 10-17-2012, 12:53   #102
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post

I have a cousin who has become well off with her husband by having an independent car repair shop. He had mechanics (who were on partial commission) as well as general help who were hourly.

He may have hired and fired, but his employee's pay didn't come out of his pocket. His customers -- mostlyworking Joes -- paid him to have his employees repair the working Joes' cars.

And so it goes, round and round...
WTF I want those who can run a good repair shop to work on MY car.
That shop pays their guys an agreed upon wage or salary. Somebody has to pay the expenses of business, organize it all so that I CAN GET MY CAR FIXED!! I need my car. I go to some shops, some I don't. It's like looking for a good doctor.

Whatever...
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Last edited by sugarcreek; 10-17-2012 at 12:54..
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Old 10-17-2012, 13:02   #103
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Anyone who believes that the deciding factors between being a "have" and a "have not" is intelligence or work ethic is a fool.
I've said it before and I'll say it again here--the stories of so many immigrants prove that you are wrong.

My parents grew up in a postwar Korea that had literally nothing. My dad often went hungry as a kid. His dad never even learned to read. He came to this country in 1979, didn't know a single soul, but he had an engineering degree and he was hungry and itching to work. When I was a kid, we were "poor" by American standards but wildly rich compared to when he was a kid. I had clothes and shoes and the family was successful enough that all of the kids could go to school, not just the smartest ones.

In the space of a single generation my parents built a life that gave me a solid middle-class beginning, and they did it through intelligence and hard work and luck. Yes, you need luck too, but hard work and smarts will take you very, very far in this country, and it's as true today as it ever was.
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Old 10-17-2012, 14:24   #104
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Originally Posted by Trew2Life View Post
Okay. So there are a lot of Star Trek fans in the house. But seriously though, capitalism is an exercise in efficient markets, but like all markets - it has a limited resource. The endless reprint of money cannot and will not continue. Without a careful and strategic balance between the have's and have nots capitalism would eventually consume itself like a black hole in the Delta quadrant.

'Needs' are one thing. We need food. We need clothing. We need shelter. 'Wants' are another. We want Beluga Caviar. We want Gucci. We want mansions.

Capitalism will eventually fall. Just as surely as governements, empires, and religions. What we raise from the ashes will determine the fate of humanity.

Change is inevitable. Resistance is futile. You will be assimilated.
I would suggest you explore the term "tragedy of the commons". http://www.learnliberty.org/content/tragedy-commons#

Additionally, as others have alluded to, wealth is not finite.. http://www.forbes.com/sites/objectiv...ere-is-no-pie/
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Old 10-17-2012, 15:00   #105
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Originally Posted by Gills63The Okie Corral


Anyone who believes that the deciding factors
between being a "have" and a "have not" is intelligence or work ethic is a
fool.
I have similar immigrant stories to Devildog, but lets try something else. How about those billionaires and millionaires in industry, movies and sports. It has nothing to do with intelligence and work ethic right...Wrong.

I cannot tell you how many people who have a natural talent, like singing, athletics, comedy, and the ability to create but don't do crap about it and just sit on their hands expecting to be "discovered".

Some of the "have nots" simply lack "Hustle"

That million dollar olympic athlete works at one point worked out 8 hours a day while going to school and working a job. He probably lost quite a few times before he started winning.

That Million Dollar Rock and Roll star at 13 was doing scales with his guitar until his fingers bled. Other kids would laugh at him and he had few friends growing up. He played in dives and had bottles thrown at him at 17. He and his band kept on playing dives and begging radio stations and record companies to give his band a shot , until someone finally did.

A recent college graduate thinks of a story while stuck on a train in England. She decides to starts to write the book after her mother dies. She mets a guy around the same time, gets married, gets pregnant, and finds out the hard way the guy is an abusive prick. She leaves with her infant child, and the first three chapters of her book. She gets a divorce and restraining order, and stays with a sister for a while. She is dirty poor, yet she continues to write this book, using computers in libraries and internet cafes with baby in tow. She completes it, pushes hard to get it published. She gets rejected a few times but one publisher finally does. The Authors name is J.K. Rowling and the book is the first of the Harry Potter series.

There is an ex-MMA fighter who fought and trained until he had no cartilage in his knee. His second love was comedy and acting. He hustled doing comedy shows in his native Amsterdam, teaching martial arts to hollywood stars somtime for free, doing PSA for kids shows, and doing youtube videos and low end cable show. That guy's name is Bas Rutten and he is the co-star in Kevin James's movie "Here Comes The Boom". He is not a millionaire...yet.

Last edited by Bilbo Bagins; 10-18-2012 at 07:26..
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Old 10-17-2012, 15:33   #106
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Originally Posted by Phaze5ive View Post
What if in the very, very distant future technology becomes so advanced that EVERYTHING can be manufactured for next-to-nothing by individually-owned machines and there is really nothing to covet because everything is so readily available and accessible?
Many years ago futurists promised we would all be working a 20 hour work week by the 1990’s thanks to productivity gains; instead it is 40+.

They never figured on crushing taxes to pay for the huge Welfare State.

Tax freedom day is currently April 17th

Wouldn’t it be great to cut all the moochers loose?
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:12   #107
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I am not a religious person (at all) but I will credit the authors of scriptures as having very imaginative and enlightened ideas of the perfect man.

The story is told that Jesus performed great miracles and sought not a drop of silver, and this story is contrasted against a society that clearly practiced free enterprise/market.

There are several biblical admonishments against wealth, greed, and longing for riches. Money truely is the root of all evil.

It's that level of enlightenment that mankind would need in order to work toward the betterment of humanity.(minus the religious stuff)

Spontaneous human enlightenment could come from different events; all of which could be very likely possibilities; global financial failures, extinction level events. Meteorites crashing to earth is not sci-fiction.

What are we going to become when we're faced with the opportunity to rebuild society out of the ashes?
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:20   #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trew2Life View Post
I am not a religious person (at all) but I will credit the authors of scriptures as having very imaginative and enlightened ideas of the perfect man.

The story is told that Jesus performed great miracles and sought not a drop of silver, and this story is contrasted against a society that clearly practiced free enterprise/market.

There are several biblical admonishments against wealth, greed, and longing for riches. Money truely is the root of all evil.

It's that level of enlightenment that mankind would need in order to work toward the betterment of humanity.(minus the religious stuff)

Spontaneous human enlightenment could come from different events; all of which could be very likely possibilities; global financial failures, extinction level events. Meteorites crashing to earth is not sci-fiction.

What are we going to become when we're faced with the opportunity to rebuild society out of the ashes?
You dont know much about the Bible either.

You suck at...well, everything so far.
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:21   #109
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Originally Posted by Trew2Life View Post
I am not a religious person (at all) but I will credit the authors of scriptures as having very imaginative and enlightened ideas of the perfect man.

The story is told that Jesus performed great miracles and sought not a drop of silver, and this story is contrasted against a society that clearly practiced free enterprise/market.

There are several biblical admonishments against wealth, greed, and longing for riches. Money truely is the root of all evil.

It's that level of enlightenment that mankind would need in order to work toward the betterment of humanity.(minus the religious stuff)

Spontaneous human enlightenment could come from different events; all of which could be very likely possibilities; global financial failures, extinction level events. Meteorites crashing to earth is not sci-fiction.

What are we going to become when we're faced with the opportunity to rebuild society out of the ashes?
You'll still be a dumbass.
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:30   #110
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Originally Posted by Trew2Life View Post
I am not a religious person
But you are a troll - and good at it too.
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:32   #111
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Originally Posted by Phaze5ive View Post
What if in the very, very distant future technology becomes so advanced that EVERYTHING can be manufactured for next-to-nothing by individually-owned machines and there is really nothing to covet because everything is so readily available and accessible?
There are a few variations on this theme popular in scifi, the post-scarcity economies mentioned earlier. Intelligent machines build the factories that build the machines that harvest the raw materials for more machines to turn into whatever you want. Labor and skill are entirely free since the machines can design and build the next generation without human intervention. The major constraint is raw materials, overcome by machines mining other planets (and a little bit of sci fi magic...).

Ian M Banks has a great version of this economy in his Culture novels. Trade still exists for some unique things, like a house with a particular view, but there aren't enough of those things to make a currency meaningful and things are either priceless or bartered through very creative means. Different authors treat this differently and it's some of the most interesting bits of scifi novels for me.

Last edited by treeline; 10-17-2012 at 19:36..
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:42   #112
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Originally Posted by Trew2Life View Post
I am not a religious person (at all) but I will credit the authors of scriptures as having very imaginative and enlightened ideas of the perfect man.

The story is told that Jesus performed great miracles and sought not a drop of silver, and this story is contrasted against a society that clearly practiced free enterprise/market.

There are several biblical admonishments against wealth, greed, and longing for riches. Money truely is the root of all evil.

It's that level of enlightenment that mankind would need in order to work toward the betterment of humanity.(minus the religious stuff)

Spontaneous human enlightenment could come from different events; all of which could be very likely possibilities; global financial failures, extinction level events. Meteorites crashing to earth is not sci-fiction.

What are we going to become when we're faced with the opportunity to rebuild society out of the ashes?
Does not matter what happens. People will still observe value in effort and compensate for it. There is no way in getting away from some type of currency whether it be money, food, metals, or time/sex
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Old 10-17-2012, 19:46   #113
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Originally Posted by Trew2Life View Post
There are several biblical admonishments against wealth, greed, and longing for riches. Money truely is the root of all evil.
Money is, in some sense, information.

When I spend $3 on a coffee, what I'm saying with my purchase is that I'd rather have a coffee at that moment than any of the other things that I could buy with $3. My spending is a signal to the market that they should be making coffee; all of the spending that flows through the economy provides information that lets people decide what and how much to produce. Without that information, how would we know how many iPhones or cars we should build, or how much oil we should dig out of the ground?

When I earn $3, someone is telling me that they think I've produced value equivalent to that amount. I can take that value and spend it on something else. Money lets me take my effort and turn it into things I need, even if I don't know how to produce those things. It lets me specialize--I can spend my time doing the things I'm good at, and maximize my value that way, and then buy the things I need from people who are good at making those things.

Money, quite literally, makes the modern world possible. Money is the root of nearly all of the good things in the world.
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Old 10-18-2012, 00:03   #114
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I am not a religious person (at all)
I hate to tell you, but you are. You just follow a different religion (Das Capital and Karl Marx instead of The Bible and Jesus Christ).
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:02   #115
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WTF I want those who can run a good repair shop to work on MY car.
That shop pays their guys an agreed upon wage or salary. Somebody has to pay the expenses of business, organize it all so that I CAN GET MY CAR FIXED!! I need my car. I go to some shops, some I don't. It's like looking for a good doctor.

Whatever...
My cousins contribute to the economy by contributing capital, and organizing/facilitating the activities business, among other things.

Without money from customers, he could not pay salaries or other expenses.

That is just the way an economic system runs. It is people buying goods and services from each other.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:10   #116
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Without people taking risk those customers don't have jobs to give them money to buy the cars or pay for repairs. In fact, they don't have cars to purchase.

FoMoCo wasn't created because people showed up to build something.
You just ignored what I said, particularly, "requires capital and management to facilitate the end production."

It takes both customers and capital. Without both, an enterprise cannot exist.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:11   #117
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I'm not sure which Trew2Life understands least - economics or history or the history of economics.

I am interested in how the socialists always equate capitalism with greed - ridiculing those who want to earn by voluntary exchange with others, while being one of those who wants to take from others by force, without earning. It's like 1984, where words have their opposite meanings, freedom is slavery, etc.
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Old 10-18-2012, 05:16   #118
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The customers generate the DEMAND.

The shop founder created the BUSINESS, and therefore the JOBS.

If you think about it though, the economy isn't so much about creating money as it is getting that money moving - changing hands.
The shop owner started the business because of the expectations of customers justified the risk. You must have both. When you do, you step into the turbulent river called commerce.

The economy is not about moving money. That is just the the "lubricant" of the engine of commerce. The power of commerce is creating good and services.
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Old 10-18-2012, 06:53   #119
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In the United States, barring congenital birth defects, rare accidents and disease, one's place in life is determined by the sum total of choices made.

If one's place in life sucks, generally-speaking, their choices have sucked.

If one wants to be free to make their own choices, no one else should be made to subsidize them.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:20   #120
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The shop owner started the business because of the expectations of customers justified the risk. You must have both. When you do, you step into the turbulent river called commerce.
Agreed. The demand was there so the owner started the business. The owner took the risks.

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The economy is not about moving money. That is just the the "lubricant" of the engine of commerce. The power of commerce is creating good and services.
Technically you are correct - the exchange of services for needed and wanted goods. When those that have the need or want of goods do not "barter" for them then the system grinds to a halt. You are saying what I was trying to say.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:22   #121
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Originally Posted by Phaze5ive View Post
What if in the very, very distant future technology becomes so advanced that EVERYTHING can be manufactured for next-to-nothing by individually-owned machines and there is really nothing to covet because everything is so readily available and accessible?
Because manufacturing requires raw materials, that isn't realistic enough for even bad science fiction.
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Old 10-18-2012, 07:25   #122
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I hate to tell you, but you are. You just follow a different religion (Das Capital and Karl Marx instead of The Bible and Jesus Christ).
I have to agree. Both religion and socialism/communism have in common that you cannot arrive at them based on evidence and reason - instead you have to base your belief on what you want to be true and you have to have faith that flies in the face of evidence. There is a good reason communism is generally incompatible with (other) religions.
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Old 10-22-2012, 18:28   #123
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Did Commander Riker live by Christian values? What about Warf? Data?

In Star Trek's portrayal of the future, it seems there was very little mention of any religion among the cast characters, but a mutual respect for the religion of others. Going by what I've seen of Christians, who condemn anyone that doesn't believe and worship how they do and try to tell others how to live, they would be entitled to their beliefs, but would't be taken any more seriously in society as any other religion of any of the thousands of alien worlds or civilizations.
I'm a Christian all my life, I do not, condem others for their beliefs. Some might. This does not equate to every living Christian.
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