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Old 10-15-2012, 16:15   #251
devildog2067
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
...not acceptable to you perhaps. But you are basing your opinion on emotion, not the reality of the situation. What happened was quite acceptable
The irony of this series of statements is too rich to believe.

The loyal Japanese-descended American citizens who were locked up, their property lost, their liberty stolen--was it "acceptable" to them?

Would it be "acceptable" to you?
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Old 10-15-2012, 16:16   #252
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Originally Posted by Dragoon44 View Post
Interred or relocated?
You cannot have it both ways. You say that "relocation" camps were were for American citizens and internment camps for non-citizens.

Yet 95%+ of those who renounced their US citizenship came from one camp.

They were locked up there for 2+ years before they became non-US citizens.

So was it an internment camp or a relocation camp before they renounced their citizenship?
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Old 10-15-2012, 16:31   #253
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
You cannot have it both ways. You say that "relocation" camps were were for American citizens and internment camps for non-citizens.

Yet 95%+ of those who renounced their US citizenship came from one camp.

They were locked up there for 2+ years before they became non-US citizens.

So was it an internment camp or a relocation camp before they renounced their citizenship?
Internment camp and relocation camps were the same, period. The terms were and are used interchangeably.

It's never acceptable to lock up a bunch of citizens and non citizens due to nothing other than mass hysteria and racism.

I love it when folks come on here crying 'it's unconstitutional' regarding gun rights but think that relocating a bunch of folks due to their slanted eyes is acceptable.

Also forced to relocate were Japanese Americans with something like 1/16 Japanese blood.

As I mentioned before, we had a lot more problems with the Italian shipbuilders on the East coast than with Japanese Americans.
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Old 10-15-2012, 17:02   #254
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You cannot have it both ways. You say that "relocation" camps were were for American citizens and internment camps for non-citizens.
Does not change the fact that some were internment camps and others were relocation camps. And the internment camps pre dated the relocation camps.

The internment camps were opened first to house resident enemy aliens not american citizens. As I stated, later Japanese Americans DID get placed in internment camps for various reasons.

Quote:
Yet 95%+ of those who renounced their US citizenship came from one camp.
Yes and here is why,

Quote:
In July 1943, Tule Lake became a segregation camp, where the government transferred Japanese Americans considered disloyal — those who answered "no" to two questions about loyalty and military service on a government questionnaire, or simply refused to answer the questions.

Japanese immigrants and their American-born children who sought repatriation or expatriation to Japan also were sent to Tule Lake.
Quote:
So was it an internment camp or a relocation camp before they renounced their citizenship?
It appears that the nature of the Tule camp changed in 1943.
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Old 10-15-2012, 17:07   #255
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Internment camp and relocation camps were the same, period. The terms were and are used interchangeably.
No they were not the same, one you were interred and not free to leave in the other you could leave and relocate elsewhere if you chose to and IIRC some 30% of Japanese Americans who initially went to relocation camps left and resettled elsewhere before the end of the war.

Quote:
It's never acceptable to lock up a bunch of citizens and non citizens due to nothing other than mass hysteria and racism.
I would agree with the Citizens not being locked up. I would not agree about the non citizens. detention of enemy Aliens has been a part of international law for a long, long, time.
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Old 10-15-2012, 17:11   #256
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post

Yet 95%+ of those who renounced their US citizenship came from one camp.

They were locked up there for 2+ years before they became non-US citizens.
And I can't say I blame them one bit.

How many people on GT can honestly say they would do otherwise? Many folks here on GT proudly proclaim that if the government ever came to take away their guns, it would be "go time" and they would go to war against the government to defend their 2nd amendment rights, but those same posters can't understand why many American citizens of Japanese ancestry chose to renounce their citizenship after having themselves, their spouses and their children hauled off to camps and locked up for years without having ever having commited a crime???
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Old 10-15-2012, 18:12   #257
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
What does it have to do with Americans of Japanese origin ?

Germans did even nastier things, does it mean that any American of German origin should had had their rights stripped away ?
You might want to research that a bit Allied Servicemen were regularly starved, beaten and subjected to medical experiments.
Some of the recon for the attack on Pearl Harbor was conducted by Japanese Civilians.
We negotiated right up until hours before they attacked Pearl Harbor.
In the context of the times, they did the right thing.
The Germans faced trials at Nurenberg, most of the Japanese that tortured and submitted our GI's to medical "Testing" walked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...0%E2%80%931945
http://www.historynet.com/takeo-yosh...harbor-spy.htm
http://www.historynet.com/takeo-yoshikawa-world-war-ii-japanese-pearl-harbor-spy.htmhttp://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/17/world/unmasking-horror-a-special-report-japan-confronting-gruesome-war-atrocity.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
http://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarC...WarCrimes.html
Pretty much that should show you how much we feared Japan invading our west coast.
In the context of the times they handled it the best way they could.
The Okie Corral

That guy would have loved to be swinging that sword in on the beaches of California.
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Old 10-15-2012, 18:40   #258
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Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
That guy would have loved to be swinging that sword in on the beaches of California.
That guy is not an American citizen.
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Old 10-15-2012, 18:40   #259
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Originally Posted by Averageman View Post
You might want to research that a bit Allied Servicemen were regularly starved, beaten and subjected to medical experiments.
Some of the recon for the attack on Pearl Harbor was conducted by Japanese Civilians.
We negotiated right up until hours before they attacked Pearl Harbor.
In the context of the times, they did the right thing.
The Germans faced trials at Nurenberg, most of the Japanese that tortured and submitted our GI's to medical "Testing" walked.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...0%E2%80%931945
http://www.historynet.com/takeo-yosh...harbor-spy.htm
http://www.historynet.com/takeo-yoshikawa-world-war-ii-japanese-pearl-harbor-spy.htmhttp://www.nytimes.com/1995/03/17/world/unmasking-horror-a-special-report-japan-confronting-gruesome-war-atrocity.html?pagewanted=all&src=pm
http://www.pacificwar.org.au/JapWarC...WarCrimes.html
Pretty much that should show you how much we feared Japan invading our west coast.
In the context of the times they handled it the best way they could.
The Okie Corral

That guy would have loved to be swinging that sword in on the beaches of California.
I still don't get how that relates to the AMERICANS who were put into camps. Those links seem to all be about Japanese spies. Or is it some kind of logical next step to turn your suspicion from your enemy to your own citizens who may look like him, or have similar names? I don't buy that it was the best we could do.
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Old 10-15-2012, 18:42   #260
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In the context of the times, they did the right thing.
Denying American citizens of the rights they are guaranteed under the Constitution is not and can never be the "right" thing.

You can argue necessary, you can argue justified, but you cannot argue "right."
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Old 10-15-2012, 18:53   #261
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Not our finest hour.
Well put. We didn't exactly toss the Italian and German, Americans in internment camps.
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Old 10-15-2012, 19:37   #262
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To those who defend this... at which point, in your opinion, does a person become a "real" American citizen, protected by the Constitution ?

Is it someone who was born in the States ? Apparently not, they were persecuted.

Is it someone whose parents were born in the states ? No, they were forcibly "relocated" too.

Is it someone whose grandparents and parents were born US citizens ? Nope, they suffered the same fate.

If what we did in the '40s was right, then any citizen of a particular ethnic or religious background - even a partial background - can be denied their constitutional rights at any time whenever the Government decides to persecute them based on whatever real or perceived threat, not because of any of their actions, but solely on the basis of their origins.

Which is un-American, anti-constitutional, and criminal.

The number of people ready to defend this shameful act shows just how close we are to tyranny.

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Old 10-15-2012, 19:44   #263
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There were a lot of young American's who we did not let serve because they had Japanese parents or grand parents. Some did...and served with great honor...while those parents and grand parents were held in camps.
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Old 10-15-2012, 20:00   #264
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Originally Posted by devildog2067 View Post
The irony of this series of statements is too rich to believe.

The loyal Japanese-descended American citizens who were locked up, their property lost, their liberty stolen--was it "acceptable" to them?

Would it be "acceptable" to you?

no

yes
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Old 10-15-2012, 20:34   #265
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Originally Posted by FLIPPER 348 View Post
no

yes
Would you feel that way if situation were reversed?
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Old 10-15-2012, 20:36   #266
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Would you feel that way if situation were reversed?

If I was in Japan after they started the war???
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Old 10-15-2012, 20:39   #267
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If I was in Japan after they started the war???
Not quite. I was asking if you would be ok if your government took away your rights as a citizen without due process?
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Old 10-15-2012, 21:51   #268
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I'm from Irish decent. My people were some of the baddest-ass terrorists on the planet until the Middle East become more interesting.

There are a lot of Catholic churches in this country.

Where do we draw the line that "my people" are not okay to be treated as the US citizens that we are? Can we be interned (oops, I mean "relocated") just to make sure we don't do anything against the War on Terror?

Keep in mind that I am quite vocal that the War on Terror is a farce, too.
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Old 10-15-2012, 22:17   #269
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Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
Because it was indeed racism.

No US citizen of German descent was interred (only some - not all - German born immigrants). Even though some were active in pro-Nazi organizations, were spying on behalf of Hitler, some were actually preparing for diversions/acts of terror. Likewise, no Americans of Italian, Hungarian or Romanian background were interred based just on their ethnic background. Even though these countries were at war with the US. Only those who were actually caught working on behalf of the enemy were apprehended, the way it should be in a lawful democratic state.

But the American citizens of Japanese descent were all rounded up, stripped of their constitutional rights, robbed of their property, and sent to prison camps. Just because their parents or grandparents came from Japan. The newspapers of the time were full of "yellow danger" and similar slurs. The Japanese Americans were been treated differently than German Americans, even though they posed about the same level of danger. And many newspaper references at the time were outright racist. If that's not racism, what is it then ?

Imagine that we go to war with Ireland and all Americans with Irish background are arrested and put in camps - sounds ridiculous doesn't it ? How about arresting all Polish Americans during Cold War ?
If it was about race, they would have locked up all "Orientals" (common racial classification was different then; anybody remember being taught about Mongoloids, Caucasoids, and Negroids?). They did not, it was about national origin. Words have meaning, confusing them does not not help the conversation, it hurts it.

Are you one of those people that calls every white person that kills a "black" person a racist? Or is it a hate crime to you?

Everything does not have to be about race, and this wasn't. It was about national ancestory and questions of loyalty.
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Old 10-16-2012, 00:48   #270
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...Everything does not have to be about race, and this wasn't. It was about national ancestory and questions of loyalty.
I agree.

But it most certainly wasn't about recognizing citizenship and the Constitution.

Every damn one of us is from foreign national heritage. This country is a "melting pot" of culture. We used to be proud of it. Well, no, actually, we only used to pretend to be proud of it, but we gave up even that pretense a long time ago.

We arrested and imprisoned citizens because of who their parents were, plain and simple. If you can justify that, you are a different American than I am.
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Old 10-16-2012, 04:25   #271
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niihau_Incident

Nishikaichi then sought and received the assistance of three locals of Japanese descent in overcoming his captors, finding weapons, and taking several hostages. In the end Nishikaichi was killed by Niʻihauan Ben Kanahele, who was wounded in the process, and one of Nishikaichi's confederates, Yoshio Harada, committed suicide.

The incident and the actions of Nishikaichi's abettors contributed to a sense in the American military that every Japanese, even those who were American citizens or otherwise thought loyal to the United States, might aid Japan, and ultimately may have influenced the decision to intern Japanese Americans through World War II. The actions of the Niʻihauans were widely celebrated in the United States; Ben Kanahele was decorated for his part in stopping the incident.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:03   #272
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I'm sure FDR just could have whoooped out his lap top and got some background investigations done and all of this would never have happened...?
They did what they had to.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:05   #273
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Not quite. I was asking if you would be ok if your government took away your rights as a citizen without due process?
In the same situation, yes.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:12   #274
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Wars make countries do stupid things.
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Old 10-16-2012, 08:42   #275
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I agree.

But it most certainly wasn't about recognizing citizenship and the Constitution.

Every damn one of us is from foreign national heritage. This country is a "melting pot" of culture. We used to be proud of it. Well, no, actually, we only used to pretend to be proud of it, but we gave up even that pretense a long time ago.

We arrested and imprisoned citizens because of who their parents were, plain and simple. If you can justify that, you are a different American than I am.
While I assume you are using the plural form of "you", let me be clear I have never said it is right or justified. Apparently the Supreme Court said it was legal. Also based on what I read, the children of the interned were no required to go to the camps, they were allowed to go. Likely there was no good alternative for them to go, and they probably did not want to be separated from their parents.

If this source is good, it appears that there was some due process.
The following statements are taken from a Department of Justice press release dated October 30, 1943. As of October 7, 2005 the complete press release may be read at pages 34 through 36 at Custodial Detention Part 2 of 3
http://vault.fbi.gov/Custodial%20Det...%20of%203/view

"In all instances, aliens are taken before the Hearing Boards who make recommendations to the Attorney General in each case. He then determines whether the alien enemy is to be interred, paroled, or released".

I do not believe that the seizure and confiscation of anyone's property is appropriate without complete due process through the Judicial Branch; and that includes the IRS seizures that still occur without due process through the Judicial Branch.

It is possible that some aliens were protected be being in the camps. Not saying it makes it good. The US could easily just have deported all aliens under the law. The US citizens are an entirely different proposition. If suspect they should have been charged, and maybe held without bail. Then tried and let the chips fall where they may.

If there were uninvolved children citizens, allowing them to stay in the camps may have been a more humane solution than putting them in an orphanage until their parents got out.
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