[dango]

Originally Posted by LAWDOGKMS

So.....the 10K of college gi bill that 10 years in the military, serving my country in-the combat zone for Desert Storm, Desert Shield in the Gulf and Operation Deny Flight in Bosnia makes me a welfare whore?

One whore to another , NO SIR and I salute you ...........!
And thank you for your service........!

[Panglоss]

Originally Posted by LAWDOGKMS

So.....the 10K of college gi bill that 10 years in the military, serving my country in-the combat zone for Desert Storm, Desert Shield in the Gulf and Operation Deny Flight in Bosnia makes me a welfare whore?

Nope. Those are just benefits conferred to you as part of your employment contract.

The idea that this is at all analogous to an 'entitlement' whereby people are given free phones, free housing, free food, etc., simply for sitting around and doing nothing, is ridiculous.

[NeverMore1701]

I think I'll tell the next dude I see wearing a Rolex that I'm entitled to it and he should give it to me. Wonder how that will go.

[IQof1]

Originally Posted by RimfireMan

The biggest social entitlement package is the GI Bill.

please explain how the GI Bill is a "social entitlement."

you see i read "social entitlement" as EVERYONE gets it. to receive GI Bill bennies, you MUST SERVE in the MILITARY.

i have now served 24+ years. i have spent over 4 of those years away from my wife and kids. i have missed, proms, homecoming games where one of my daughters was in the HC Court. i missed first steps, first swimming pool.

i missed first pet. i missed alot serving my country, time, memories and experiences i will NEVER, NEVER get back so that IDIOTS like you can complain about me receiving the GI Bill.

oh, btw, i PAID $1200 as an E2 for my initial GI Bill, THEN, i got the wonderful chance to PAY another $600 for TOP UP. THEN i got to watch as new guys coming in got the SAME GI Bill as I paid for for free!

do i begrudge them? hell no. social entitlements are free public education (indoctrination), welfare, unemployment, SSI for those that did NOT pay into it, etc...

please get an F'ing clue before you post more stupidity.

[Z71bill]

Is the GI Bill an entitlement?

Well DUH of course it is - but don't believe me - ask the VA.

http://www.gibill.va.gov/documents/p...0_pamphlet.pdf

Go ALL THE way down to page 3 under the heading

"ELIGIBILITY and ENTITLEMENT"

These sections may also show some interest --

HOW DO WE CHARGE ENTITLEMENT?......... 20
CAN WE EXTEND YOUR ENTITLEMENT?...... 21
CAN WE RESTORE YOUR ENTITLEMENT IF
YOU HAVE TO DROP OUT OF SCHOOL?....... 21

[IQof1]

Originally Posted by Z71bill

Is the GI Bill an entitlement?

Well DUH of course it is - but don't believe me - ask the VA.

http://www.gibill.va.gov/documents/p...0_pamphlet.pdf

Go ALL THE way down to page 3 under the heading

"ELIGIBILITY and ENTITLEMENT"

These sections may also show some interest --

HOW DO WE CHARGE ENTITLEMENT?......... 20
CAN WE EXTEND YOUR ENTITLEMENT?...... 21
CAN WE RESTORE YOUR ENTITLEMENT IF
YOU HAVE TO DROP OUT OF SCHOOL?....... 21

Entitlement is being used as a description of benfits, NOT the same meaning as welfare, unemplyment etc...

after paying your dues or serving in the military, you are granted these benefits as part of your service agreement thus, you are "entitled" to receive the bennies.

it is NOT an entitlement in the sense of welfare. the OP is just trolling and trying to stir the pot so to speak.

[Panglоss]

Originally Posted by Z71bill

Is the GI Bill an entitlement?

Well DUH of course it is - but don't believe me - ask the VA.

http://www.gibill.va.gov/documents/p...0_pamphlet.pdf

Go ALL THE way down to page 3 under the heading

"ELIGIBILITY and ENTITLEMENT"

These sections may also show some interest --

HOW DO WE CHARGE ENTITLEMENT?......... 20
CAN WE EXTEND YOUR ENTITLEMENT?...... 21
CAN WE RESTORE YOUR ENTITLEMENT IF
YOU HAVE TO DROP OUT OF SCHOOL?....... 21

I hope you are not serious.

This is a simple case of a word taking on a different meaning in a different context.

When you serve in the military you are 'entitled' to GI Bill benefits, which are a benefit of your employment. Thus the use of the word 'entitlement'.

You are not 'entitled' to a free phone, free food, or free housing, simply because you were born and exist in this country. These are the type of 'entitlements' (we could call them unearned entitlements) that are controversial.

If the GI Bill is an entitlement, then so is any other benefit or, more specifically, form of compensation, provided by one's employer; sick days, vacation days, health and dental, etc., are all entitlements, right? In fact, by the same line of reasoning, one's wage or salary would also become an entitlement.

These argumentum ad nauseam posts about semantics are really growing old.

There's a huge difference between something that you are IN FACT entitled to because you earned it, and something that you BELIEVE you are entitled to simply because you exist and because you THINK you are entitled to receive it for free.

Context.

[Z71bill]

Originally Posted by Panglоss

I hope you are not serious.

This is a simple case of a word taking on a different meaning in a different context.

When you serve in the military you are 'entitled' to GI Bill benefits, which are a benefit of your employment. Thus the use of the word 'entitlement'.

You are not 'entitled' to a free phone, free food, or free housing, simply because you were born and exist in this country. These are the type of 'entitlements' (we could call them unearned entitlements) that are controversial.

If the GI Bill is an entitlement, then so is any other benefit or, more specifically, form of compensation, provided by one's employer; sick days, vacation days, health and dental, etc., are all entitlements, right? In fact, by the same line of reasoning, one's wage or salary would also become an entitlement.

These argumentum ad nauseam posts about semantics are really growing old.

There's a huge difference between something that you are IN FACT entitled to because you earned it, and something that you BELIEVE you are entitled to simply because you exist and because you THINK you are entitled to receive it for free.

Context.

The reason the correct term is ENTITLEMENT is because a law was passed - providing these benefits to people - if they meet specific criteria they are ENTITLED to the GOVERNMENT PAID BENEFIT.

That is what an entitlement program is -

Social security, medicare, GI Bill, unemployment payments, food stamps, free phones for the poor, medicaid, heating payments assistance, housing allowance for poor, heck I would even add it the earned in come credit.

All of these are entitlements -

If the very government agency that administers the program calls it an entitlement - why is it not an entitlement?

The problem with the terms is yours -

You could make a valid case that not all of these programs are welfare - but there is just no way possible to not call them entitlements.

BTW - congress passes a law that says a person - that meets specific criteria - is entitled to a free phone - they are just as entitled to the free phone - as a person that paid XX into social security is to SS payments - just as entitled as a service member is to the entitlement benefit under the GI bill - or a student is entitled to a student loan.

At least until the flow of cash / ability to borrow runs out or congress changes the law.

[Averageman]

Originally Posted by DanaT

I would bet that you think I should pay taxes on income earned in foreign countries because of an "accident of birth", dont you?

No Dana, I regularly work outside the U.S. and I feel like, if you aren't inside the U.S. they should have No claim on any of your money you earned outside the US.
That being said I don't mind paying my Taxes for my earnings here, I just wish there was someone minding the till a little better.
It would be nice if we didn't need to work outside the U.S. to earn a prime wage, and that wont happen until we bring industry back here.

[Averageman]

Originally Posted by muscogee

You weren't around in 1968. Welfare is a bribe we pay poor people to not burn down their cities. It's much cheaper than cleaning up the mess and rebuilding. It's much cheaper than catching them, trying, them, and keeping them in prison.

Actually I was living in the Chicago suburbs and remember watching the Democratic National Convention on T.V. right up until Daley unleashed the Chicago Cops on the protestors. I was sent to bed of course.
My Dad who was recently home from Viet Nam probobly made popcorn opened an "Old Style"and watched the festivities.

[dherloc]

I paid $1200 for my GI bill...never used it. Gov't can keep it. Didn't really need it anyway.

[dherloc]

Originally Posted by Averageman

No Dana, I regularly work outside the U.S. and I feel like, if you aren't inside the U.S. they should have No claim on any of your money you earned outside the US.

Not sure I agree with this one. You are, after all, still a US citizen...with all the rights and priviledges that come with that.

Might have to mull that one over. But pretty sure I won't change my mind.

[frizz]

Originally Posted by muscogee

If you're incorporated BK is a get out of jail free card. I have seen wealthy people hire others to work for their corporations, pay themselves all the profits and ignore the bills. By the time the corporation is driven into BK, the owners have taken everything worth taking and get to keep it while those to whom they owe money get nothing.

One example does not make a trend...

This is not very common. For one thing, corporations that are owned by only one or only a few people will seldom be able to borrow money or buy anything on credit without signing for the dept personally.

Also, your description is a classic pattern of when the law will allow creditors go after the owners directly. They may either get the court to disregard the corporate protection, or get the bankruptcy court to grab back money from most anyone who got money from the corporation.

Google "piercing the corporate veil" and "fraudulent conveyance" to see how this works.

[Averageman]

Originally Posted by dherloc

Not sure I agree with this one. You are, after all, still a US citizen...with all the rights and priviledges that come with that.

Might have to mull that one over. But pretty sure I won't change my mind.

Well I can to a degree see your point, but if I'm not there to recieve any of the benefits, I'm just paying for the passport.
I dont mind paying for that passport, but to be honest to a degree I see it almost as an entrance fee to get back in the country.
It does bug me to deal with the things I have to deal with and to pay and pay and then to stand in a line and see someone pull out that card and get their stuff for free.
I was raised in a very lower middle class Family where we were told if we work hard and save our money we will get ahead. Yeah you will get ahead and you will carry how many folks on your back as you do it?

[frizz]

Originally Posted by muscogee

You weren't around in 1968. Welfare is a bribe we pay poor people to not burn down their cities. It's much cheaper than cleaning up the mess and rebuilding. It's much cheaper than catching them, trying, them, and keeping them in prison.

That is a hush-hush reason for it. Back in the 1930s, a justification for the New Deal was that it would prevent agitators from being able to foment a communist revolution.

[Eurodriver]

10k for the GI Bill?

Not anymore.

THe point of the GI Bill that many of us are trying to make is that IT IS COMPLETELY UNSUSTAINABLE.

I make over $30,000/yr in educational benefits! Thats more than I made as an NCO on active duty.

[dherloc]

Originally Posted by Averageman

Well I can to a degree see your point, but if I'm not there to recieve any of the benefits, I'm just paying for the passport.
I dont mind paying for that passport, but to be honest to a degree I see it almost as an entrance fee to get back in the country.
It does bug me to deal with the things I have to deal with and to pay and pay and then to stand in a line and see someone pull out that card and get their stuff for free.
I was raised in a very lower middle class Family where we were told if we work hard and save our money we will get ahead. Yeah you will get ahead and you will carry how many folks on your back as you do it?

Sort of standing at the fence on this one...not on the other side though...yet.

I have two friends that I worked with over the years that work mainly out of country. They come back every few months for a week or so to visit family, then go back. I would think ALL of their money is earned overseas. But, their families do still live here. So in their case, I would think that they should be taxed.

Lets say you are single with zero ties. That would be a better argument for keeping all (most?) of it.

But of course, there are lots of instances over the last few decades where the situation has turned south in a hurry for those working overseas. In that case, do you 'send in the Marines' to get a person out? My grandfather missed being caught up in the overthrow of the Shah by a month. He was working for Bell in Iran at the time and given a slightly different set of circumstances, could have ended up needing government intervention to bail him out. That intervention did not work out well in that case, but there are many others where it did. Those were tax dollars at work.

Like I said...pretty close to being on the fence with this one. Makes for an interesting discussion doesn't it.

[dherloc]

Originally Posted by dherloc

I paid $1200 for my GI bill...never used it. Gov't can keep it. Didn't really need it anyway.

Oh...and I meant to add that I think mine was only good for about $12k. Seemed like a good idea at the time when I signed up for it...just never got around to using it after I got out.

The new GI bill...well, that is a pretty sweet deal. Think my brother in the Marines is under it and is planning on using it when he gets out.

I am on the side of the crowd that says it is deferred compensation. I think the word entitlement is being misused in this case.

I am also of the opinion that we do need to reevaluate some of these programs. You pay the ones out that you had a contract with, then move forward with something else. I would bet recruiters still fill the spots without it being as good as it is now.

[dango]

Wow , what rock have I kicked over....?

Let the rape and pillage begin.........!

[frizz]

Originally Posted by Eurodriver

10k for the GI Bill?

Not anymore.

THe point of the GI Bill that many of us are trying to make is that IT IS COMPLETELY UNSUSTAINABLE.

I make over $30,000/yr in educational benefits! Thats more than I made as an NCO on active duty.

If you have a problem with military compensation packages, then you can push to have them reduced.

Really. Using your reasoning, we can call base pay an "entitlement program."

[frizz]

Originally Posted by dango

Wow , what rock have I kicked over....?

Let the rape and pillage begin.........!

Back under your bridge, troll! We ain't billygoats, even if we are gruff.

[DanaT]

Originally Posted by IQof1

Entitlement is being used as a description of benfits, NOT the same meaning as welfare, unemplyment etc...

after paying your dues or serving in the military, you are granted these benefits as part of your service agreement thus, you are "entitled" to receive the bennies.

it is NOT an entitlement in the sense of welfare. the OP is just trolling and trying to stir the pot so to speak.

You are getting at the root of the argument.

The GI Bill (and other military veterans programs) IS an entitlement program. By law, by definition, by wording it is entitlement. I highly suspect if you read your contract the US govt is allowed to change entitlement benefits as they chose in the future.

It is the same as social security.

What you are complaining about (and other posters below you) is WHAT you did to get that entitlement program

What people have done to think they are entitled to the benefits.

Military Entitlements: You served in the Military

Social Security: You paid SS TAX

Can you see how people feel entitled? They did what was asked of them and then they want what they were promised in return.

Where you get upset is the equating these entitlements to programs that most of the population looks down upon. But look, people who receive these entitlements had to so something to be entitled to the benefits.

Welfare: Be born in USA and not work. It helps to pop out a few babies along the way.

Free Telephone: Be born in USA and not work.


The argument is not if the GI Bill is an entitlement (it is, end of story...you can say what you want but it is defined in law as such), but whether the entitlement was an earned entitlement vs an unearned entitlement.

It is such a hot topic because "conservatives" in general dislike welfare and other entitlements. I suspect .mil guys like them (welfare recipients) even less from the ones I know. Since they so despise them, they dont want to be seen as taking entitlements and being "one of them".


Again, I am in my own small world, but I see military service as something we owe soldiers for. Essentially, they have given up the best years of their lives to do something for society. I also believe the USA as a whole benefits from soldiers getting college education. I believe giving money for school to people who have given to the country is a better way allocating scholarship money than Pell grants.

But I also believe that as Americans our best chances for the future is to educate our children. They are the next generation(s). I would prefer to see universities andtrade schools follow the European models where a young adult starting out doesnt start in the hole. I would prefer to see university/trade school be free for all students (legally in the USA). Of course that said, our education system needs some serious fixing.

I know that I am a raving communist saying that, but some things are worth the price society has to pay. Paying our soldiers what we owe them = yes. Getting every child educated to be a productive adult = yes. Paying $1M to keep someone mother alive an extra 2 months = no.

To determine if a program is worth while, I ask myself, does SOCIETY benefit or are only individuals benefiting.

Take a free cell. Society does not benefit one bit, only individuals. = Not worthwhile.

[jbailey8]

I've always felt that "entitlement" programs should be more of a stepping stone to, help you get back on your feet, and not something with no expiration date making it easier to be dependent on my/your tax dollars.

Of course like everything I feel their should be some exceptions, i.e. assistance for elderly or the permanently disabled.

[DanaT]

Originally Posted by dherloc

Sort of standing at the fence on this one...not on the other side though...yet.

I have two friends that I worked with over the years that work mainly out of country. They come back every few months for a week or so to visit family, then go back. I would think ALL of their money is earned overseas. But, their families do still live here. So in their case, I would think that they should be taxed.

Lets say you are single with zero ties. That would be a better argument for keeping all (most?) of it.

But of course, there are lots of instances over the last few decades where the situation has turned south in a hurry for those working overseas. In that case, do you 'send in the Marines' to get a person out? My grandfather missed being caught up in the overthrow of the Shah by a month. He was working for Bell in Iran at the time and given a slightly different set of circumstances, could have ended up needing government intervention to bail him out. That intervention did not work out well in that case, but there are many others where it did. Those were tax dollars at work.

Like I said...pretty close to being on the fence with this one. Makes for an interesting discussion doesn't it.

Are you aware of how taxes on overseas income works? Are you willing to give me a TAX REFUND when I never paid taxes because the overseas tax credits and tax exclusions exceeds my tax liability and YOU OWE ME MONEY?

There is also a $95100 (for 2012) tax exclusion. This means the first $95k is tax exempt.

...

Now, onto an example. I have an acquaintance that lives in Switzerland. She is a dual citizen (USA and Swiss). One parent is each nationality (for those that dont think you can have dual citizenship, you are wrong). She has never lived a day of her life in the USA. She has only ever done small vacations to visit family. She has always lived in Switzerland. The US government (IRS) sent her a letter that she needs to be filing US taxes. Keep in mind she has never lived in the USA. Never received a benefit (no schooling, no anything) yet gets a letter that she has to file taxes.

I can tell you what the end is. She is in the process of renouncing USA citizenship. One would think that is easy, but the USA wants its tax money....

[geofri]

Originally Posted by DanaT

Are you aware of how taxes on overseas income works? Are you willing to give me a TAX REFUND when I never paid taxes because the overseas tax credits and tax exclusions exceeds my tax liability and YOU OWE ME MONEY?

There is also a $95100 (for 2012) tax exclusion. This means the first $95k is tax exempt.

...

Now, onto an example. I have an acquaintance that lives in Switzerland. She is a dual citizen (USA and Swiss). One parent is each nationality (for those that dont think you can have dual citizenship, you are wrong). She has never lived a day of her life in the USA. She has only ever done small vacations to visit family. She has always lived in Switzerland. The US government (IRS) sent her a letter that she needs to be filing US taxes. Keep in mind she has never lived in the USA. Never received a benefit (no schooling, no anything) yet gets a letter that she has to file taxes.

I can tell you what the end is. She is in the process of renouncing USA citizenship. One would think that is easy, but the USA wants its tax money....

Hmm.. I also have a friend with dual citizenship(swiss/us). Only difference is he has lived and worked here for several years over the past 20 years.

Pretty sure he has never filed taxes when out of the country. I'll have to ask him.