[G31]

Erased. Sorry, jb. Thought you were broadly bad mouthing all of us with that post before your last, but I was wrong. Just remember, anything is possible, though a lot is improbable.

[jbglock]

How much does a flashlight cost where some of you can't afford to keep one by your bed? Two by your bed? One on the other side of the bed by your spouse? I'm surprised that some of you can even afford to buy ammo to keep your guns loaded. Yes I use very expensive lights on duty. I want bright, o rings, and lights that work after hitting the concrete. But those cheaper led flashlights at every Wal-Mart in this country are bright enough to light a room, blind your intruder, use cheap and widely available batteries, and some are quite durable. Some of you think nothing of spending 2x or more on night sights vs. what a few good light would cost? I just don't understand the debate.

[G31]

See my edit above.

[NeverMore1701]

Originally Posted by jbglock

How much does a flashlight cost where some of you can't afford to keep one by your bed? Two by your bed? One on the other side of the bed by your spouse? I'm surprised that some of you can even afford to buy ammo to keep your guns loaded. Yes I use very expensive lights on duty. I want bright, o rings, and lights that work after hitting the concrete. But those cheaper led flashlights at every Wal-Mart in this country are bright enough to light a room, blind your intruder, use cheap and widely available batteries, and some are quite durable. Some of you think nothing of spending 2x or more on night sights vs. what a few good light would cost? I just don't understand the debate.

Me either, which is why I have both.

[AK_Stick]

You don't understand, because you either missed it, or never took the time to read it in the first place.


It was never about night sights being used instead of a light.


What it was, was a couple of us disagreeing with the premise that if you had a light, buying night sights is a waste.

[fnfalman]

Originally Posted by AK_Stick

What it was, was a couple of us disagreeing with the premise that if you had a light, buying night sights is a waste.

The premise was that tritium sights are wasted on civilians and cops because of the need for positive ID before shooting and not that night sight is a waste in general.

[mjkeat]

Originally Posted by fnfalman

Well, it's called collateral damage. So, sad, too bad. Of course my training and conditioning were twenty years in the past. We didn't really care much about political correctness.

Nice try but you're as wrong as a guy w/ 40K pointless/incorrect/misleading posts. Target indentification is extremely important, military and civilian, contrary to your earlier statement.

Originally Posted by fnfalman

How many civilians spending times in total darkness with their relatives days on end so that they can learn each others' silhouettes?

What is it about you youngsters that you can't separate military service from civilian life?

You're wrong Col. Sanders. Darkness is not required to silhouette ones self. People have their own quirks, posture, stride, and body make-up. Think first, type later (or preferably not at all).

[Averageman]

When I deployed a lot and my young wife was at home with the dog and the baby the Shotgun was in the walk in closet.
The plan was to call the cops and let the bad guy have fun with the Doberman while she got in to the closet.
There were 5 doors between the front door and the closet and a Doberman with a bad attitude toward strangers.
The Shotgun went under the door knob and the wife and baby were behind the safe. I told her if that door knob turns pull the trigger.
Certainly moving about at night I would prefer a pistol, but as the tool of last resort a shotgun has it's place.

[fnfalman]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

Nice try but you're as wrong as a guy w/ 40K pointless/incorrect/misleading posts. Target indentification is extremely important, military and civilian, contrary to your earlier statement.

Like I said, political correctness for GIs. Back in my days we shoot first and ask questions later. We don't clear rooms with shortened carbines either. That's why God invented frags and M203.

You're wrong Col. Sanders. Darkness is not required to silhouette ones self. People have their own quirks, posture, stride, and body make-up. Think first, type later (or preferably not at all).

That they do, but once again, you must be one of those badass commandos who recognize all his relatives' silhouettes & movements even in the deep of night, freshly arised from a sleep. For the rest of us, we'd prefer flashlights or ambient light.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by jbglock

Exactly. I've always thought that night sights were the solution to a problem that didn't exist. For those that would advocate just shooting at a threatening looking shadow in a darkened house, I hope you can live with yourself if you kill someone that you didn't need to kill possibly. Don't bet your life on the sympathy of law enforcement though.

This. People claiming they need to see the front sight in a semi-lighted room to hit a target 15 feet away is pretty comical. It's also funny that they think the bad guy won't know where they are in a semi-lit room when they are only 15 feet away.

Using sights at all in a cqb situation is just silly. And yes, I have cleared many houses, and secured many criminals in same. You need light to see the subject in order to identify him and locate him. If you have that much light, a birthday candle will do, you can silhouette the gun on the subject.

Have a white light. My house is lit at night anyway. WTF has a pitch black house? Even if the power were out, I always, yes always have a light with me.

As for SG's and cqb, having knocked over more than ly share of lamps and pictures off the wall, I know how awkward they are in a house. Nothing is as handy inside a residence as a handgun.

When you are taking the slack out of a trigger and your target is 15 feet away, the last thing you will be looking at is your front sight. If your weapon is 30 inches long, you'll wish you had a pistol.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

When you are taking the slack out of a trigger and your target is 15 feet away, the last thing you will be looking at is your front sight.

Reports from some people involved in shootings say differently. This seems to vary between people and what you experience will not necessarily be what the next guy experiences.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Warp

Reports from some people involved in shootings say differently. This seems to vary between people and what you experience will not necessarily be what the next guy experiences.

I'm not going by reports. I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will be looking at what you believe is about to kill you. That won't be your front sight.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

I'm not going by reports. I can tell you with absolute certainty that you will be looking at what you believe is about to kill you. That won't be your front sight.

Because every single person in the world will have the exact same experience as you.

Not everybody who has BTDT says the same thing.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Warp

Because every single person in the world will have the exact same experience as you.

Not everybody who has BTDT says the same thing.

You're right, some people hit the gas prior to impact in a head-on collision instead of the brakes, so not every single person who has had crashes hits the brakes before impact.

We're talking about imminent death comeing from a subject 15 feet away, you look at your fancy sights if you want to.

[Warp]

Originally Posted by WiskyT

You're right, some people hit the gas prior to impact in a head-on collision instead of the brakes, so not every single person who has had crashes hits the brakes before impact.

You're right, seeing your front site before you pull the trigger is a very bad, very dangerous thing that will likely lead to your injury or death.

[WiskyT]

Originally Posted by Warp

You're right, seeing your front site before you pull the trigger is a very bad, very dangerous thing that will likely lead to your injury or death.

No, no, you're right. You're right about everything and there really is no need, or room, for anyone else to post on GTalk about anything.

I'm going to make a motion, all threads on GTalk should be of the same format at the GATE section. They will all be confined to an initial question by an OP who will then be responded to by Warp. All others will be locked out from posting.

[mjkeat]

Originally Posted by fnfalman

Like I said, political correctness for GIs. Back in my days we shoot first and ask questions later. We don't clear rooms with shortened carbines either. That's why God invented frags and M203.

So does everything have to be about combat? I thought war and civilian were totally sseparateof each other? Do you think that maybe there's a reason those tactics are mostly obsolete?

Originally Posted by fnfalman

That they do, but once again, you must be one of those badass commandos who recognize all his relatives' silhouettes & movements even in the deep of night, freshly arised from a sleep. For the rest of us, we'd prefer flashlights or ambient light.

I'm starting to think so. It's strange because it seemed like a fairly easy thing to do for everyone. I guess it's a weak point for you. I'm sure there are other things you do well.

Recognizing family & friends in low light and the use of flashlights are two different subjects. I have a flashlight on or next to any firearm I keep by the bed.

[KalashniKEV]

Originally Posted by fnfalman

Like I said, if you're a GI then target ID doesn't mean squat.

Lots of people are talking way out of their lane on this thread, but this one takes the cake.



There is a reason why shotguns in professional application are limited to breaching and non-lethal use. There is a reason why most professionally instructed Home Defense classes have nothing at all to do with a shotgun.

Defending your family is an emotional issue, so if you grew up with your "pappy" ranting about his "scattergun" and it got you all horny, then you aren't going to change your mind.

Shotguns are for breaching and non-lethal use... and ducks and clays if that's your thing...

[Warp]

Originally Posted by KalashniKEV

There is a reason why most professionally instructed Home Defense classes have nothing at all to do with a shotgun.

What is that reason?

[KalashniKEV]

Originally Posted by Warp

What is that reason?

Limitations of the platform vs. real and imagined advantages.

[Bob Hafler]

I like my Shotgun. It's been protecting my home for over 15 years. I have no plans on changing a thing,it's what I'm used to. I don't care what the latest guru says or thinks. I have a pistol on the nightstand but it's not my primary HD weapon.

[Nestor]

I'm not going to take any side in this discussion, but for sure I can remember that during the Simunition FX training inside the dark rooms none of the people I trained with (including myself) had time to use the sights when things were going downhill.
On a side note I would like to mention that using the flashlight is such situation isn't exactly easy thing to accomplish either.

[Providence]

Originally Posted by KalashniKEV

Limitations of the platform vs. real and imagined advantages.

Limitations would include: limited magazine, harder to maneuver, distance limitations, and recoil (time to acquire target). For me the shotgun is perfect. I will be shooting from a stationary position and backed up by my wife who will be shooting a carbine w/30 round mag. We also have our pistols and flashlights.


Please vote! It's that important!

[fnfalman]

Originally Posted by KalashniKEV

Shotguns are for breaching and non-lethal use... and ducks and clays if that's your thing...

Right...that's why in WWI the Germans wanted to ban US's shotgun use in the trenches...

[fnfalman]

Originally Posted by mjkeat

So does everything have to be about combat? I thought war and civilian were totally sseparateof each other? Do you think that maybe there's a reason those tactics are mostly obsolete?

I thought that we were talking specifically about war time shooting?

I'm starting to think so. It's strange because it seemed like a fairly easy thing to do for everyone. I guess it's a weak point for you

Easy thing to do for everyone? Is that why there are numerous reports of fathers shooting sons and husbands shooting wives at night because they thought that their homes got broken in?

. I'm sure there are other things you do well.
.

I do many things well. Shooting, riding motorcycles at breakneck speed, pick up chicks, ad infinitum.