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Old 10-14-2012, 18:27   #176
nursetim
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Originally Posted by RimfireMan View Post
To start with, your definition of entitlement is wrong. It all derailed after that point.
That's it? That is the sum total of you argument? That is your response? That's it? Why bother? who writes your material? Bagdad bob? No, maybe it's that carney fella that defends barry all the time.

BTW, I get that from a bunch of people that can not make a cogent argument, so you're not alone.

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Old 10-14-2012, 18:39   #177
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
Outside of a few very specialized jobs in military, its not a job that most "can't" do. I just got back from road trip with my Swiss friend. You realize ALL MEN until 34 (unless they are conscientious objectors or are medically not capable) are soldiers in Swiss army until 34? So it is quite clear being a solider is something most CAN do.

You statement about wont do, is accurate, but statement about cannot do the job is not accurate.
Most, but you'll never know if you were one of the most will you?

Unless you were in, then I retract my statement.

Last edited by roger123; 10-14-2012 at 18:40..
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Old 10-14-2012, 18:44   #178
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Originally Posted by tous View Post
There's the rub.

An entitlement is whatever the professional liars declare it to be.
I don't think that is the case. The generally accepted meaning, in common discourse, is an unearned government benefit.

There may be a related, similar meaning used in the political/legal community, but that definition is essentially jargon. The overlap and be confusing.

A similar word is assault. A long time ago, as common-law legal jargon it meant, roughly, deliberately scaring someone that you will hit them. Now it means the crime of actually hitting someone deliberately.

Back then, battery meant actually hitting someone deliberately, and it still does today. Strangely, in civil/tort law, assault and battery retain their common-law meanings.
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Old 10-14-2012, 18:57   #179
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Originally Posted by Panglоss View Post
Wow. Congratulations, I think you just won the award for biggest broken record in the history of internet forums (certainly within such a short time period)!

I guess you believe in the theory of argumentation that consists of repeating oneself over and over and over until someone starts to think you are right. Even though you have offered no evidence or good reason for anyone to believe a word that you are saying.

"Entitlement is what I say it is. Your definition of entitlement is wrong. You are wrong."

OK, we get it. Thanks for the informative posts. Please move along now.


I had to look it up... I think he is going for the formal logical fallacy argumentum ad nauseam

I'm right I'm right I'm right I'm right...
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Old 10-14-2012, 19:10   #180
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I don't think that is the case. The generally accepted meaning, in common discourse, is an unearned government benefit.

There may be a related, similar meaning used in the political/legal community, but that definition is essentially jargon. The overlap and be confusing.

A similar word is assault. A long time ago, as common-law legal jargon it meant, roughly, deliberately scaring someone that you will hit them. Now it means the crime of actually hitting someone deliberately.

Back then, battery meant actually hitting someone deliberately, and it still does today. Strangely, in civil/tort law, assault and battery retain their common-law meanings.
I agree. I have always understood assault to be the threat, battery to be actual physical contact and injury. But then I learned my law 40 years ago before dirt was invented and Moses was just a lad.



That said, I tend to live by the contract day-to-day. I am entitled if the contract sayeth, not entitled if the contract don'teth.
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Old 10-14-2012, 19:22   #181
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What? Farms in the Midwest were horribly hurt by the depression, and then the dustbowl. Farmers who financed operations by using their farms as security lost them. Wheat prices collapsed below the cost of production.

You know the saying "California or Bust" by the Okies (and not just from Oklahoma) who had to leave their homes.

That was a bad time for agriculture.
I can only tell you what he told me.
Central Indiana to Northern Kentucky was aparently much less effected.
I never knew them to grow wheat, the grain in that area is almost always corn.
Unlike the agriculture we know today, he used mostly draft animals to plow with until my Mother was born in the early 40's. He told me about standing on a horses back to watch my Grandmother walk to the barn to milk the cows.
As far as the price dropping below market price as I said they lived a pretty self sustaining lifestyle with little cash changing hands.
I'm sure extra grain turned in to extra cattle and milk if there wasn't a market for it.
They kept a "Garden" most of us would call a small farm up until they retired.
He spent his life working and worked until he was 90 in his shop making toys and furniture.

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Old 10-14-2012, 20:43   #182
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The cold hard truth is, we really need a draft, and level the ****ing playing field. Everyone serves for some initial fixed duration of time. The mentally ill, the invalid, crooks - everyone above a certain age serves in a capacity where they can make a difference.
Make registration for selective service - the draft - voluntary for all citizens 18 and over. Once registered, you can be called at any time up to your 70th birthday- regardless of what you are doing when called, you go. You may unregister at any time if you have not yet been called. Only individuals registered for the draft are eligible for federal elected office, and if an elected person - even the President - has his registration number selected he goes into service.
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Old 10-14-2012, 20:57   #183
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Make registration for selective service - the draft - voluntary for all citizens 18 and over. Once registered, you can be called at any time up to your 70th birthday- regardless of what you are doing when called, you go. You may unregister at any time if you have not yet been called. Only individuals registered for the draft are eligible for federal elected office, and if an elected person - even the President - has his registration number selected he goes into service.
Most folks are ineligable to serve and if called would burden the system to it's breaking point.
There will never be an effective draft again. That Genie has left the bottle.
The Volunteer Army works as good as it does because folks want to be there.
I would really agree with you that the majority have no "Skin in the Game" and are Americans due to an accident of birth. they dont have the will or spirit to care for themselves let alone serve the Military.
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Old 10-14-2012, 21:04   #184
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Awesome, you agree with my fire protection districts benefit fee. We are not a city, we do not get sales tax. We charge 40 dollars a year benefit fee to households in our district. 4 stations, 4 paramedic engine companies, 2 paramedic ambulances, 2 brush fire engines, a heavy rescue and an on duty batt chief. You call we show up. We have about 80,000 residents in our district and we turn out about 11,000 unit responses a year. We love it and are proud to serve.

I reside in an area that is a district not a city. My benefit fee is about 50 bucks a year. I gladly pay it. 3 blocks from my house where my wife and baby are I have a medic engine with 4 guys on it and paramedic ambulance with 2 medics on it. Money well spent.
I like my job, too. I also think my job is important.
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Old 10-14-2012, 21:16   #185
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Well , no matter what has been , I am warmed by all that are
con to this entitlement thing cause I now know that Ma and Pa
will comfortably exsist at your exspense , in your homes and life will forge ahead..................!
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Old 10-14-2012, 21:25   #186
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I've invited my Mother to move in to my house any time she would care to.
I have no issue with her living with me as a matter of fact I kind of look forward to it.
If you look at successful Immigrents there are usually four generations living in one house.


Now if I can just keep the old bat out of my whiskey and snuff it should work out alright.

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Old 10-14-2012, 21:31   #187
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Well , no matter what has been , I am warmed by all that are
con to this entitlement thing cause I now know that Ma and Pa
will comfortably exsist at your exspense , in your homes and life will forge ahead..................!
Yes, that is the it was before fdr. It should be so again. Fdr just made it okay and easy to disown your family. Family should look after its own. For those thinking, what about the abusive family. Well that's been going on longer than anybody here can remember. The family took care of that, physically, without fear of governmental intrusion.

Uncle willy, showing his to little girls/boys? In the 1800's.they would sew him up with his just his head out of a horse carcass. In the early part of the 20th century, his brothers/BILs would have a four wall counseling session, if that didn't work they'd invite him to go "fishing"
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Old 10-14-2012, 21:41   #188
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I've invited my Mother to move in to my house any time she would care to.
I have no issue with her living with me as a matter of fact I kind of look forward to it.
If you look at successful Immigrents there are usually four generations living in one house.


Now if I can just keep the old bat out of my whiskey and snuff it shoulf work out alright.
WATCH WHAT YEE HOPE-ETH FOR ....! My Mother-in-Law is living with us NOW....! SHE has driven me beyond all limits
known to man , I am on unwritten ground with access to some NETHER WORLD so GOOD luck when that HAPPY day cometh.!

EEeeeeek....................... HELP....!
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Old 10-14-2012, 21:44   #189
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Without question.

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Old 10-14-2012, 21:49   #190
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No one ever said it would be easy. In fact many time would try the patience of Job. If I had to take in my idiot BIL or SIL, it would be a race as to who would crack first, my wife or myself. We both agree they are idiots. Neither should feel entitled to our help. We help because WE want to, not because they tell us we have to.

Other part about pre fdr, there were some miserable sods that either their family would have nothing to do with them and others that had no families, this is where the church stepped up. Still no one I ever heard of felt entitled to help.
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Old 10-15-2012, 00:45   #191
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I guess you wont be hiding money out of the country anymore.
When I woke up, I realized what the left has really been able to do.

You ramble on about "freedom" and my CCW falsely claiming to be a conservative. Trust me, you are not the only one.

In the one little sentence "you wont be hiding money" you said a lot.

You have 100% bought into the class warfare. You never did say it was "my money". What came out in the sentence is very telling. I am "hiding money". If I stick money under my mattress am I hiding money?

What you are saying is anyone who has money that the government doesnt know where it is and have access to confiscate said money, is the bogey man.

This has all played out before. 1917 Bolschevic Revolution. There the bourgeoisie were blamed for all the ills and too many people not having enough money. Next up, pre-ww2 Germany. It was the "bankers" (read Jews) that the blame. Catsro didnt like anyone to have money (except himself). Today it is Hugo Chavez.

The story has been played out many times before. You just cannot see that the left has already won when you are talking about being "free" because the govt gives you permission (you have to ask for the CCW, you have to ask to buy a gun) to have a gun while all the while you are buying into their argument and making me your Jew because I am "hiding money".

I bet (if you had the skill) you would gladly take one of the jobs I have open and run as fast as you could to go buy a new BMW when you saw your paycheck.

Never mind I am creating jobs. I am a bad jew because I one of "those guys" who has a foreign (Swiss) bank account.

Have you ever thought that maybe it is easier to actually function in Europe with a European bank account? Probably not. You jumped immediately to "hiding money" because you have been brainwashed.
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Old 10-15-2012, 00:57   #192
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Bankruptcy is an area where you have some misunderstanding. This has come up in other threads, and I'm looking at US bankruptcy law only. (BK=bankruptcy -- legal shorthand.)

BK isn't always a "get out of jail free card". You can't just say "I don't want to pay what I owe", and walk away. Yes, there is abuse, but this isn't always the case. You have to say "I can't pay what I owe" and then let the process look at your situation to see if that is accurate.

It a moral problem. Sure, it is hard to justify letting someone walk away from irresponsible behavior. But someone who has had a catastrophic illness that exceede<<<<<SNIP>>>>>

This isn't the academic view of BK, this is roughly what happens in reality. It may not match your experience with your debtors, but consider that you may see a particular segment of all debtors. I guess in statistical terms, you may have a biased sample.

It's like this:

Some cases are
Some are
Some of them are


Sorry to talk your ear off, and if you already know any of what I wrote, please don't take it as an insult to your intelligence....
I took out parts that werent needed to respond.

No one has yet answered if they believe bankruptcy is acceptable behavior under any/all circumstances one my find themselves in. I wonder why?

But lets look at the the case where there is irresponsible behavior that cause the BK. Yes, there is a procedure and its not a ge out jail free card. Essentially it can be looked at as debt restructuring with some debtors doing better than others. All may be crapped on and get nothing. Some may get more than others. No debtor typically comes away happy.

This is what people dont see. They see we are spending too much and cannot keep up this level of debt. However, they want the OTHER debtors to be the ones who are screwed and not them.

Realistically, the choices are pin the spending cuts on some very high cost groups (such as SS, military retirements) or spread the pain around.

Regardless of how it is done, there will be pain. Look at Greece as an example. But, military pensions are easier to cut than SS/medicaid. Why? You PO old people and you dont get elected so go after a different group.

Sorry to tell you .mil guys, I suspect your sacred cow is in line much sooner than SS/medicaid, welfare, etc, etc. You just dont have the votes compared to the other groups. I am not saying this is right/wrong/otherwise. I am saying you are an easier target. Dont worry, you get a be a bad guy right along side me with my "money hiding". It our fault that the govt has a spending and revenue problem.

Again, I have my position clear on military retirements. No need to repeat it. (well I will...I would take every cent from welfare if it meant keeping our obligations to vets. I also do not believe the military is over-compensated for what they do. I would personally say under compensated)
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Old 10-15-2012, 00:57   #193
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Make registration for selective service - the draft - voluntary for all citizens 18 and over.
If it is voluntary, then it is not a draft. In the military, you are either a volunteer, or you are conscript.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:10   #194
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I can only tell you what he told me.
Central Indiana to Northern Kentucky was aparently much less effected.
I never knew them to grow wheat, the grain in that area is almost always corn.
Unlike the agriculture we know today, he used mostly draft animals to plow with until my Mother was born in the early 40's. He told me about standing on a horses back to watch my Grandmother walk to the barn to milk the cows.
As far as the price dropping below market price as I said they lived a pretty self sustaining lifestyle with little cash changing hands.
I'm sure extra grain turned in to extra cattle and milk if there wasn't a market for it.
They kept a "Garden" most of us would call a small farm up until they retired.
He spent his life working and worked until he was 90 in his shop making toys and furniture.
I'm pretty sure northern Kentucky was OK. The dust storms probably were a drag -- they went as far as the eastern seaboard!

Having a farm in my general area (the Black Belt) would be good in the event of an economic or other disaster. For a really bad one, such as the electric grid being fried by a solar ejection, you'd be looking at a societal collapse.

In that case, you would need a farm and trusted friends/family to work the fields and keep roving bands away.

Imagine having to kill people who just want food to feed their starving children. Ugh.
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:15   #195
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I would really agree with you that the majority have no "Skin in the Game" and are Americans due to an accident of birth. they dont have the will or spirit to care for themselves let alone serve the Military.
I would bet that you think I should pay taxes on income earned in foreign countries because of an "accident of birth", dont you?
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Old 10-15-2012, 01:43   #196
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I took out parts that werent needed to respond.

No one has yet answered if they believe bankruptcy is acceptable behavior under any/all circumstances one my find themselves in. I wonder why?
I snipped a lot because I think you are pretty much correct. Nobody wants their ox gored.


As for your question about bankruptcy being acceptable behavior. Well, you have another moral dilemma. One thing to keep in mind is this: a debt that cannot be repaid will not be repaid. That does moot the practical part, and there is a moral aspect to having a consistent system to handle the situation for unintentional behavior and bad luck.

All circumstances? No. If you do it deliberately, you don't deserve it. If you mismanage your money? I see both sides, but I side with mercy; it wasn't a deliberate attempt to cheat anyone. But accidental? Bad luck? What's the point? It isn't blameful, and you can't get blood out of a turnip.


I'm biased, though.

My father had the bad luck to lose his job and have a heart attack before he could get a new one. My parents didn't have many assets, so they could not do much in the way of paying the medical bills.

Bankrupting killed him from the shame, and it took almost decade for him to work his way through it emotionally. The toll it took on his health was awful. Not four years after he accepted it, he was dead at 54.

That's all I got for you.
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Old 10-15-2012, 02:12   #197
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As for your question about bankruptcy being acceptable behavior. Well, you have another moral dilemma. One thing to keep in mind is this: a debt that cannot be repaid will not be repaid. That does moot the practical part, and there is a moral aspect to having a consistent system to handle the situation for unintentional behavior and bad luck.

All circumstances? No. If you do it deliberately, you don't deserve it. If you mismanage your money? I see both sides, but I side with mercy; it wasn't a deliberate attempt to cheat anyone. But accidental? Bad luck? What's the point? It isn't blameful, and you can't get blood out of a turnip.
But this is what happened with Greece. They are upset that they have overspent and cannot meet their obligations. Now they expect the Germans to pay their obligations. Germans have a problem paying for Greeks to retire at 55 when Germans dont get to until 67.

We are headed down the same path if we don't correct things now.

Right now, we (as in the USA) are in the stage where we can still restructure debt/obligations and maybe get out of it. A little later, its done and getting out will be like what your father experienced.

Essentially, we are at the point where we have gangrene in a limb. We can either remove the limb and the limb dies or we can be scared to make the cuts and let the infection spread. We all know the outcome.

My opinion is mixed democrat/republican on this. Some very hard cuts need to made in spending. Revenue needs to be increased. That said, I dont believe the govt should get ANY MORE taxes unless there is a balanced budget amendment.

I can justify paying more taxes ONLY until the national debt is paid off and ONLY if there is never again deficit spending and ONLY if the tax rate goes back down as soon as the deficit is paid.

Giving politicians more money is like putting a 4 year old kid in a candy shop, telling them they can have whatever they want and as much as they want, tell them you expect the child to make good choices, and then wonder why the kid is sick from eating so much candy. Then because you can't put 2 and 2 together, let them repeat this the next day, and the next. 10 years later you wonder why the child isnt healthy and look around and seem dumbfounded about how the child got into this mess.

The politicians are worse than 4 year old children..
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:33   #198
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:38   #199
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BK isn't always a "get out of jail free card". You can't just say "I don't want to pay what I owe", and walk away. Yes, there is abuse, but this isn't always the case. You have to say "I can't pay what I owe" and then let the process look at your situation to see if that is accurate.
If you're incorporated BK is a get out of jail free card. I have seen wealthy people hire others to work for their corporations, pay themselves all the profits and ignore the bills. By the time the corporation is driven into BK, the owners have taken everything worth taking and get to keep it while those to whom they owe money get nothing.
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Old 10-15-2012, 07:53   #200
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The only security one has is ones self and the ability to change.
Social Darwinism , you are the way , you are the light , you must
change your way of thinking . Once you wrap your mind around
this , the answer is hitting you the face .
Thats naive. If you live long enough you're ability to change will diminish. At some point it will become almost non-existent.

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I can not even count on money but , I can eat what I grow and that is what I will and am doing . The only sound investment I
can make !
What happens when you have a heart attack, kidney failure, or something else that keeps you from growing your own food? You draw your Social Security and let Medicare and Medicaid pay your health care bills. When your Medicare and Medicaid are used up, the health care industry takes all your liquid assets and nearly everything else you have. In many countries there are laws that prevent that.
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