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Old 10-13-2012, 22:47   #61
avenues165
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You could put together an 18" SS barreled AR with a rifle-length gas system and a fixed A2 stock. There are some really nice 18" rifle length gas uppers out there. BCM makes some that I covet sooo much. A rifle length gas system should be a soft shooter, and even a mid weight profile would shoot very nice groups. BCM SS410 barreled uppers are known for shooting subMOA groups with the right trigger, optic, and ammo. They'll shoot both 5.56 and .223, they're well priced, and they're high quality.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:37   #62
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Bear in mind, the 16" with rifle length gas system is what is known as a "dissipator". Dissipators can have gas issues which will make them unreliable. However, several companies offer a "mock dissipator" which is a carbine or midlength gas system hidden under the rifle length handguard, with an A-frame front sight pinned in place in the normal rifle position. You get the handguard and sight radius of an M16 with the better function of a midlength or carbine gas system, all on a more compact 16" barrel.
Wow, I hadn't known that. Reliability is certainly something I want. What type of gas issues are dissipators known for?
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:44   #63
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Wow, I hadn't known that. Reliability is certainly something I want. What type of gas issues are dissipators known for?
Proximity of the gas port to the muzzle can lead to issues with the bolt unlocking too early (going from memory here, and I'm not fully awake yet, please forgive me if I'm wrong), which leads to extraction and feed issues. Some ran fine with a properly sized gas port and just the right carrier and buffer. Some were picky about ammo, and some ran like ass.

This is why someone came up with the mock dissipator - all the looks and advantages, but without the issues that comes with running a rifle gas system on a 16" barrel. On an 18-20" barrel, rifle gas systems should run just fine. It's only an issue on the 16" guns.
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Last edited by WoodenPlank; 10-14-2012 at 06:45..
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:45   #64
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You could put together an 18" SS barreled AR with a rifle-length gas system and a fixed A2 stock. There are some really nice 18" rifle length gas uppers out there. BCM makes some that I covet sooo much. A rifle length gas system should be a soft shooter, and even a mid weight profile would shoot very nice groups. BCM SS410 barreled uppers are known for shooting subMOA groups with the right trigger, optic, and ammo. They'll shoot both 5.56 and .223, they're well priced, and they're high quality.
So an 18" will have the standard rifle gas system, just like a 20? Is that generally true, or just with some 18"? (edited: already answered by WoodenPlank).

At this point of my learning, I can envision a full length rifle setup, full handguard, full stock, fixed or detachable handle, 18" or 20" barrel.

A detachable handle and 18" barrel both make sense to me. So does a heavy stainless barrel if it is noted for accuracy.

Not sure on the twist yet.

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 10-14-2012 at 06:47..
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:54   #65
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So an 18" will have the standard rifle gas system, just like a 20? Is that generally true, or just with some 18"?

At this point of my learning, I can envision a full length rifle setup, full handguard, full stock, fixed or detachable handle, 18" or 20" barrel.

A detachable handle and 18" barrel both make sense to me. So does a heavy stainless barrel if it is noted for accuracy.

Not sure on the twist yet.
Most 18" barrels are drilled for rifle length gas systems, but I'm pretty sure I have seen midlength before, too. Either should serve you well.

Twist will be determined by what types of ammo you want to shoot. If you just plan to shoot cheap 55-62 grain ammo, then 1/9 is fine, but will limit how heavy you can go. 1/8 will allow for heavier bullets (up to ~80 grain), and 1/7 will allow for that and some of the extra long projectiles (M856 tacer, >80 grain). Some folks have been unsatisfied with the accuracy of 55 grain ammo from 1/7 barrels, but it's never been an issue for me.

Also, bear in mind that there are no absolutes - every barrel is different. Some 1/9 barrels will hold nice groups with 75-77 grain ammo, and some will group more like a load of buckshot.

In my opinion, a 1/8 twist is ideal for almost any application in an AR, short of a dedicated light varming gun slinging 40-50 grain bullets. It'll handle ~50-80 grain projectiles, 70 grain Barnes TSX, and should shoot most loads with acceptable to exceptional accuracy.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:09   #66
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Most 18" barrels are drilled for rifle length gas systems, but I'm pretty sure I have seen midlength before, too. Either should serve you well.

Twist will be determined by what types of ammo you want to shoot. If you just plan to shoot cheap 55-62 grain ammo, then 1/9 is fine, but will limit how heavy you can go. 1/8 will allow for heavier bullets (up to ~80 grain), and 1/7 will allow for that and some of the extra long projectiles (M856 tacer, >80 grain). Some folks have been unsatisfied with the accuracy of 55 grain ammo from 1/7 barrels, but it's never been an issue for me.

Also, bear in mind that there are no absolutes - every barrel is different. Some 1/9 barrels will hold nice groups with 75-77 grain ammo, and some will group more like a load of buckshot.

In my opinion, a 1/8 twist is ideal for almost any application in an AR, short of a dedicated light varming gun slinging 40-50 grain bullets. It'll handle ~50-80 grain projectiles, 70 grain Barnes TSX, and should shoot most loads with acceptable to exceptional accuracy.
So, perhaps I should look for an 18" with 1/8" twist.

Where do you stand on the question of stainless vs not, and heavy vs not.

Again, keeping in mind that this mainly a range gun. Either my backyard range, and some varmits, or gunclub ranges and showing off my gun's accuracy

Probably not competitions, but maybe down the road if I think I'm doing well and have time on my hands, and if I want to learn more about rifle shooting.

Hone defense use too, but not buying it specifically for that purpose
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:35   #67
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So, perhaps I should look for an 18" with 1/8" twist.

Where do you stand on the question of stainless vs not, and heavy vs not.

Again, keeping in mind that this mainly a range gun. Either my backyard range, and some varmits, or gunclub ranges and showing off my gun's accuracy

Probably not competitions, but maybe down the road if I think I'm doing well and have time on my hands, and if I want to learn more about rifle shooting.

Hone defense use too, but not buying it specifically for that purpose
Unless it will only be shot from a bipod or rest on a bench, I would skip the bull barrel. A medium to heavy profile (better, heavy and fluted) barrel will be more than enough without adding a crazy amount of weight to the front of the gun.

If you plan to add an optic, skip the fixed front. While anything higher magnficiation than 3-4 will cause the front sight to blur out or disappear, I still don't like having a fixed sight in front of an optic.

Several companies offer good stainless barrels, and a few even offer chrome lined barrels that can rival many stainless barrels for accuracy. It all depends on budget. If cost isn't an issue(but you want to squeeze out as much accuracy as you can), I'd go with a Krieger stainless 18" in 1/7.7. For contours, I would give them a call and tell them what you are trying to do, and they can give you a solid suggestion.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:54   #68
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Unless it will only be shot from a bipod or rest on a bench, I would skip the bull barrel. A medium to heavy profile (better, heavy and fluted) barrel will be more than enough without adding a crazy amount of weight to the front of the gun.

If you plan to add an optic, skip the fixed front. While anything higher magnficiation than 3-4 will cause the front sight to blur out or disappear, I still don't like having a fixed sight in front of an optic.

Several companies offer good stainless barrels, and a few even offer chrome lined barrels that can rival many stainless barrels for accuracy. It all depends on budget. If cost isn't an issue(but you want to squeeze out as much accuracy as you can), I'd go with a Krieger stainless 18" in 1/7.7. For contours, I would give them a call and tell them what you are trying to do, and they can give you a solid suggestion.
What is contours?

I've thought about that fixed front sight in front of a scope thing. No answer but did think about it.

I'm not much into buliding things, except with wood. I like a unit all put together with few spare parts to keep track of. So, I'll probably look for some company'scsetup that is off the shelf close to what I want. Just saying how I am.

What do you think of this Armalite? Seems it should be a light trigger. How does the two-stage work? Do you feel it as two movements, or just as one lighter movement? I'll have to look that up. 20" stainless barrel. Removable handle. 1/8" twist. Says it is available in AWB format, which I think means to be legal under the assualt weapon bs that sunset for you guys but NYS still has.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.asp...b-822e58014822

I don't see an 18".

As I think about this I'm leaning toward something that could either be used in CMP ( even though I've never shot that), or be iron sighted for fun from the bench, or be scoped and benched, or be a field plinker and varmit gun.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:28   #69
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What is contours?

I've thought about that fixed front sight in front of a scope thing. No answer but did think about it.

I'm not much into buliding things, except with wood. I like a unit all put together with few spare parts to keep track of. So, I'll probably look for some company'scsetup that is off the shelf close to what I want. Just saying how I am.

What do you think of this Armalite? Seems it should be a light trigger. How does the two-stage work? Do you feel it as two movements, or just as one lighter movement? I'll have to look that up. 20" stainless barrel. Removable handle. 1/8" twist. Says it is available in AWB format, which I think means to be legal under the assualt weapon bs that sunset for you guys but NYS still has.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.asp...b-822e58014822

I don't see an 18".

As I think about this I'm leaning toward something that could either be used in CMP ( even though I've never shot that), or be iron sighted for fun from the bench, or be scoped and benched, or be a field plinker and varmit gun.
If you don't want to build it yourself, then I would highly suggest looking at Bravo Company's offerings in 18 and 20 inch varieties. They offer both stainless and chrome lined bores, and multiple options for handguards or rail systems. I don't remember offhand what they offer for ban states offhand, but if you call or email them, I am sure they will get back to you with an answer.

For triggers, look at Geissele. $180 and up, but probably the best AR-15 and AR-10 triggers in the world now.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:40   #70
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Similar to the Armalite, is this RockRiver, national match model that looks good, too. Any opinions on this compared to the Armalite, or to the BCM link earlier in the thread?

What other national match type guns to consider?

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=226
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:42   #71
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If you don't want to build it yourself, then I would highly suggest looking at Bravo Company's offerings in 18 and 20 inch varieties. They offer both stainless and chrome lined bores, and multiple options for handguards or rail systems. I don't remember offhand what they offer for ban states offhand, but if you call or email them, I am sure they will get back to you with an answer.

For triggers, look at Geissele. $180 and up, but probably the best AR-15 and AR-10 triggers in the world now.
Ok, I'II take a look. Didn't see prices at their website yet.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:44   #72
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Ok, I'II take a look. Didn't see prices at their website yet.
Don't see them on the Geissele or BCM website?
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:01   #73
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Don't see them on the Geissele or BCM website?
The BCM rifle MSRP, on the BCM website. Don't know what Geissele is yet, a company that makes triggers?
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:03   #74
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Here is what I assume is Bushmaster's version of a national match rifle
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/competition.asp
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:07   #75
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The BCM rifle MSRP, on the BCM website. Don't know what Geissele is yet, a company that makes triggers?
Bravo COmpany doesn't list prices for lowers or complete rifle, just uppers. You can easily buy a complete upper and complete lower, then slap them together.

As I mentioned earlier, Geissele probably make the best match and competition triggers for the AR platform out there right now.
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:07   #76
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The BCM rifle MSRP, on the BCM website. Don't know what Geissele is yet, a company that makes triggers?
Correct,.....some say they are the best.
I prefer Timney triggers.

Last edited by faawrenchbndr; 10-14-2012 at 16:46..
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Old 10-14-2012, 14:57   #77
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You seem to be looking for a rifle that will "do it all," so to speak. If you want an 18" barrel, a really good choice, in my very humble opinion, would be one of the following:

1. Larue PredatAR 18" - Lightweight, lightweight profile barrel, accuracy will be very good. It is a lightweight profile barrel, so accuracy may drop off a little if the barrel gets hot. How much if at all, I can't say.

2. Larue PredatOBR 18" - Hybrid of the PredatAR and the OBR, which is a heavier rifle more suited for precision shooting. The PredatOBR will have a heavier profile barrel, so it should maintain more accuracy with a hot barrel.

3. A lower of your choice with a BCM SS410 18" upper - Find an lower that is set up the way you like (A2 stock or collapsible, two-stage trigger, etc.), and buy a BCM upper. They are mid weight profiled barrels, and I really have read many accounts of them shooting subMOA groups with the right optic, trigger, and ammo. They use the USMC SAM-R chamber, which IIRC, is very similar to a Wylde chamber. That means it will handle 5.56 and .223 rounds. If you go this route you should note that BCM sells the uppers without a BCG and charging handle. I would buy the upper with a BCG so you can have them headspace it.

Any of these set ups would allow you great accuracy, and I would be proud to show any of these set-ups off to peers

I personally am setting up a precision-oriented "do it all" with a Spikes lower, a SOPMOD stock, Geiselle trigger (probably a SD-E), BCM 16" SS410 barreled upper (haven't decided on handguard), and either 1-6X or 2.5-10X scope.

It is taking me a long time to gather the funds, but I know it will be worth it!!
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Old 10-14-2012, 14:59   #78
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Correct,.....one say they are the best.
I prefer Timney triggers.
Timney triggers are very nice from what I have read. I have never had the pleasure to try one.
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Old 10-14-2012, 17:47   #79
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You seem to be looking for a rifle that will "do it all," so to speak. If you want an 18" barrel, a really good choice, in my very humble opinion, would be one of the following:

1. Larue
Some pricey stuff
http://www.laruetactical.com/rifles
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Old 10-14-2012, 21:32   #80
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It is pricy, but really nice

I think the PredatAR is the best deal, considering what you get with it.

The third option I listed with a BCM upper would definitely be the cheapest. Minus optics, optic mount, and Geisele trigger I figure my rifle will come in at ~$1,300.00 (spikes standard AR trigger in it).

I don't know much about it, but Stag Arms makes a 3 gun rifle (Model 3G) that might be worth a look. Probably accurate but a little lighter than a heavy barreled rifle. I don't know who they get their SS barrels from, or if they make them in-house. Has a Geissele super 3-gun trigger, sampson handguard, 18" SS barrel with rifle-length gas system, 5.56 NATO chamber, 1/8 twist, Magpul ACS stock and MOE pistol grip, 3-gun compensator. Looks like a pretty nice set up!

Last edited by avenues165; 10-14-2012 at 21:39.. Reason: Added details
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