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Old 10-13-2012, 00:24   #81
Warp
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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post


Which brings back the question of necessity of the tritium sight since that you'd want enough ambient light to positively identify the target in a non-military, non-shoot-first-ask-question-later environment.
Virtually every single time I pick up my shotgun or one of my pistols to dry-run in my house at night, I can very easily identify targets/target areas yet only see the sites due to the tritium.

I have also shot outside at night where I could identify the target but would not be able to easily see sites that were not their own light source.

Sure, there are times it's too dark to ID a target without a light source. Sure, there are times it's kinda dark and you could see a fiber optic site.

But there are tons of times you can ID the target and the tritium lets you see your sites (or lets you pick them up more quickly)
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Old 10-13-2012, 00:27   #82
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Originally Posted by fnfalman View Post
How exactly does having a light but not turned on would pinpoint one's location?



Which brings back the question of necessity of the tritium sight since that you'd want enough ambient light to positively identify the target in a non-military, non-shoot-first-ask-question-later environment.
Exactly. I've always thought that night sights were the solution to a problem that didn't exist. For those that would advocate just shooting at a threatening looking shadow in a darkened house, I hope you can live with yourself if you kill someone that you didn't need to kill possibly. Don't bet your life on the sympathy of law enforcement though.
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Old 10-13-2012, 00:31   #83
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Originally Posted by jbglock View Post
Exactly. I've always thought that night sights were the solution to a problem that didn't exist. For those that would advocate just shooting at a threatening looking shadow in a darkened house, I hope you can live with yourself if you kill someone that you didn't need to kill possibly. Don't bet your life on the sympathy of law enforcement though.
Night sights were invented and put on military weapons first BECAUSE soldiers don't necessarily have to positive ID anybody before they start blasting.

The M16A1 had the optional americium front sight. I believe that Valmet may have pioneered tritium front & rear because my M76 has it. Galil also featured tritium sights.
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Old 10-13-2012, 00:34   #84
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Originally Posted by jbglock View Post
Exactly. I've always thought that night sights were the solution to a problem that didn't exist. For those that would advocate just shooting at a threatening looking shadow in a darkened house, I hope you can live with yourself if you kill someone that you didn't need to kill possibly. Don't bet your life on the sympathy of law enforcement though.
Since you seem to have missed it:

Virtually every single time I pick up my shotgun or one of my pistols to dry-run in my house at night, I can very easily identify targets/target areas yet only see the sites due to the tritium.

I have also shot outside at night where I could identify the target but would not be able to easily see sites that were not their own light source.

Sure, there are times it's too dark to ID a target without a light source. Sure, there are times it's kinda dark and you could see a fiber optic site.

But there are tons of times you can ID the target and the tritium lets you see your sites (or lets you pick them up more quickly)
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Old 10-13-2012, 03:09   #85
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My experience is light at night is not uniform. There are areas in greater and lesser shadow and moving a few feet can change everything. In my home I leave some lights low level lights on all the time everywhere except bedrooms where I plan to be. Will I be able to see my sights or id a target? I don't know. Which is why its a good idea to have lots of options. Flash lights, ambient light, night sights, red dots I'll take all the help I can get. I do know this, someone shooting at me has identified themselves as targets, lights, no lights its a target.

The amount of control people think they will have amazes me. If you hear your front door reduced to splinters or your dog trying its best but going down hard guess what. ID has just been made. From what I have gathered home invasions happen fast, sudden and violently and control is pretty much nonexistent.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:48   #86
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Almost.

What I would like to adress is the thought of clearing your house. I feel it's best to have a plan to hunker down in one spot if it's at all possible. For example, if your family sleeps up stairs and you are alerted to an intruder who has made it into hour house, a shotgun at the top of the stairs or perhaps behind a bookshelf in a hallway or designated room would be much more effective than a handgun, hands down. For most people and situations, clearing your house as if you were a highly trained expert is something that is referred to as fishing to be shot.

I can only imagine 99% of gun owners in the US have not attended a room clearing training course, and I don't see why they would. YMMV of course.
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Old 10-13-2012, 04:55   #87
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Originally Posted by John Biltz View Post
My experience is light at night is not uniform. There are areas in greater and lesser shadow and moving a few feet can change everything. In my home I leave some lights low level lights on all the time everywhere except bedrooms where I plan to be. Will I be able to see my sights or id a target? I don't know. Which is why its a good idea to have lots of options. Flash lights, ambient light, night sights, red dots I'll take all the help I can get. I do know this, someone shooting at me has identified themselves as targets, lights, no lights its a target.

The amount of control people think they will have amazes me. If you hear your front door reduced to splinters or your dog trying its best but going down hard guess what. ID has just been made. From what I have gathered home invasions happen fast, sudden and violently and control is pretty much nonexistent.
Most but not all. Very recently I had one locally that was a burglar that broke into the home. The child of the homeowner woke him up telling him their was a man he didn't know in the home.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:04   #88
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The interview was an interesting read. I'm curious about his instruction to center the gun on your chest as much as possible? I have the Magpul video, but I don't remember that... Must have not paid enough attention.

He makes a good point about the pistol at night, clearing the house. I don't plan on any house clearing. We are going to retreat and defend from cover. DWHas the rifle and I have the SG. She is a deadly shot! So our philosophy is that out pistols are to get us to our long guns. I realize kids would complicate that, but ours are grown and usually not here.


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Old 10-13-2012, 09:27   #89
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Most of us don't consciously plan on doing house clearing, but some interior layouts will simply force you to retrieve your family members from non adjacent rooms.

This is how the bearded one shoulders the shotgun (or a rifle, for that matter), squarely on the pec muscle:
General Firearms Forum

Chris and ex Magpul buddy Travis Haley, both with similar technique:
General Firearms Forum

And this is how Chris (and Travis) teach you to grip a handgun:
General Firearms Forum
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:44   #90
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Originally Posted by SouthpawG26 View Post
Most of us don't consciously plan on doing house clearing, but some interior layouts will simply force you to retrieve your family members from non adjacent rooms.

This is how the bearded one shoulders the shotgun (or a rifle, for that matter), squarely on the pec muscle:
General Firearms Forum

Chris and ex Magpul buddy Travis Haley, both with similar technique:
General Firearms Forum

And this is how Chris (and Travis) teach you to grip a handgun:
General Firearms Forum
Thanks! That helps a lot!


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Old 10-13-2012, 11:48   #91
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AR > shotgun > handgun > rabid weasel on duck taped to a stick for me.
just had the mental image of a honey badge with a shotgun...shudder.
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Old 10-13-2012, 18:43   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jbglock View Post
Really?


Sounds like giving your position away and giving someone a good direction to shoot in.


Absolutely. What Warp and I were saying, is that having a tactical light, doesn't mean that money spent on night sights is "wasted". Because there are a number of scenarios where the sights, are useful.

Be it, because you broke your light, or that your batterys are out, or (for the cops) that your light is taken out in the fight, or that its not tactically advantageous to turn on your light, but you want to cover someone with your weapon etc.



As for calling out, it really depends upon the situation, and your specifics.

In the city, with small close together houses and the like, you may not have the distance to matter. Myself, I live in the country, with enough acreage that I could query someone from the darkness. If guys are say, messing with my shop, I could leave the house, and depending upon time of year/and day, be in complete darkness. If I yell at them, they'll know I'm behind them, but a single word like "hey" really isn't going to give you enough information to pinpoint my location on my property.



Also, depending upon the situation, because of the layout of my property, and the standoff between my house, and shop, and the street and my house/property lines, could easily make a shot over 100 yds on my property. At such a range, or depending upon where the encounter was, I may have enough backlighting to use the sights, but not use the light. Doing so, tritium illuminated night sights, or fiber optic sights, perform better under lower ambient light levels than plain black sights. Hence a good reason to keep them around.



While Falman like to paint the whole world into pretty boxes where he can neatly explain or plan out every possible circumstance, what we've been saying is night sights are simply an extra tool in the tool box. If you have them, and don't need them great, but its not a waste to have them.


Its not a waste for me to have a table saw, even though most of the issues around my house require the use of a screwdriver or a hammer.
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Old 10-13-2012, 21:19   #93
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With the military, you don't care about identifying target. You know who your enemies are and what their silhouettes/profiles look like. You see a silhouette, sights on target, BLAM!!!

Do that at home and you might have just shot grandma.
Oh yeah? So the bad guy in the man dress w/ the funny hat is somehow different than the non combatant in the man dress with the funny hat?

As far as recognizing silhouettes of people you are familiar w/, it can be done. After a few night movements in the field it became quite easy to identify people my silhouette. Imagine if it was someone you've know all your life like grandma.

You have got to be doing some sort of social experiment.
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:14   #94
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I can easily identify an out-of-place person in my house without the need to see exactly who it is. I don't need to see facial features or colors to see a firearm, knife, or crowbar in someone's hands in near-dark environments. I can easily see that my truck is a medium shade of color under full moon conditions, and see 1/4 mile down the road just fine. However, I can NOT pick up non-tritium sights in these conditions.

Since the use of scotopic vision is required under dim light, you will never physically be able to pick up the sights without light of some sort. The rods in your eye are absent in the fovea, so anything in the dead center of your field of view is not able to be seen. However, the rods will usually pick it up peripherally. With small objects like sights, that will be difficult at best. Try it at night when your night vision has kicked in (20-30 min). Stare at an item hanging on the wall, and it disappears, but look to the side and you see it.

Even with a light, tritium is easier to see than non-lit sights; it is just part of the nature of sight. Having used both lights with and without tritium sights, I can agree with it. The dark sights still take longer to acquire.

Furthermore, tritium allows you the ability to look "over the sights" at the target area without even thinking about exactly where the gun is pointed. If needed, they can be acquired instantly.

Is tritium necessary? No. You may not even get time to attempt a sight picture, but they sure can help any other time.
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:25   #95
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If a burglar is backlit by a streetlight or in total darkness you can really tell if it is a gun, knife, hammer, or maybe something he has stolen in his hand? I'm not saying that a person shouldn't have night sights if they want them. I'm saying for home defense a gun mounted or hand held flashlight is more important. Much more important. Doesn't mean you can't have both.
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:27   #96
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Oh yeah? So the bad guy in the man dress w/ the funny hat is somehow different than the non combatant in the man dress with the funny hat?
Well, it's called collateral damage. So, sad, too bad. Of course my training and conditioning were twenty years in the past. We didn't really care much about political correctness.
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:28   #97
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As far as recognizing silhouettes of people you are familiar w/, it can be done. After a few night movements in the field it became quite easy to identify people my silhouette. Imagine if it was someone you've know all your life like grandma.

You have got to be doing some sort of social experiment.
How many civilians spending times in total darkness with their relatives days on end so that they can learn each others' silhouettes?

What is it about you youngsters that you can't separate military service from civilian life?
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:36   #98
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If a burglar is backlit by a streetlight or in total darkness you can really tell if it is a gun, knife, hammer, or maybe something he has stolen in his hand? I'm not saying that a person shouldn't have night sights if they want them. I'm saying for home defense a gun mounted or hand held flashlight is more important. Much more important. Doesn't mean you can't have both.
That is not possible to answer in every circumstance. Can you see an AR15 outline? Most likely from any distance. A pistol or revolver? Maybe across the room in your house, or 15 feet away outside. A bat or crowbar has a unique shape, and a gun is held in a unique way (most knives, etc. don't have handles at the rear, giving it a gun-like profile in a hand). Can you tell if a tall, skinny man is in your house under dim light? How about a 260 lb fat guy that doesn't belong? Of course.

Along the lines of what has been said, night sights are guaranteed not to be a gimmick, nor a waste of money. There is no physical way a person with the ability to see cannot benefit from them, whether they think so or not. It's part of the nature of sight. Whether its worth it to you is a different story, and I respect that.
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:39   #99
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I'm nearing the end of spending much time here. I feel what little their was for me to learn that I didn't already know is past. Time to start saying what I really feel about some things. Lets start here. It takes an irresponsible human to shoot in the dark at a target they haven't positively identified. Internet forum or not I think some of you are just a little to thoughtless when it comes to what may be a situation where you have to end a human life.
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:42   #100
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That is not possible to answer in every circumstance. Can you see an AR15 outline? Most likely from any distance. A pistol or revolver? Maybe across the room in your house, or 15 feet away outside. A bat or crowbar has a unique shape, and a gun is held in a unique way (most knives, etc. don't have handles at the rear, giving it a gun-like profile in a hand). Can you tell if a tall, skinny man is in your house under dim light? How about a 260 lb fat guy that doesn't belong? Of course.

Along the lines of what has been said, night sights are guaranteed not to be a gimmick, nor a waste of money. There is no physical way a person with the ability to see cannot benefit from them, whether they think so or not. It's part of the nature of sight. Whether its worth it to you is a different story, and I respect that.
The fact that it is not possible to say in every circumstance is the point I guess. All it takes is one unjustified shooting to ruin your life. Given the choice between a light and night sights both seem a good choice. Just a light seems a good choice. Just night sights seem to be an irresponsible choice.
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