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Old 10-12-2012, 17:17   #26
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Just placed my order.


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Old 10-13-2012, 05:40   #27
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I don't know that 4 inches, on a 308, is going to make much of a significant issue.

You're only talking maybe, 200 fps. Maybe. load, and individual rifle dependent.

So, what, maybe 1.5 inches difference? Just not seeing that as being much, if even noticeable.

200fps changes the distance where the bullet goes trans-sonic.

If I was going to reach out there, I'd get an 18" or a 20".
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Old 10-13-2012, 05:42   #28
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200fps changes the distance where the bullet goes trans-sonic.

If I was going to reach out there, I'd get an 18" or a 20".
Do you know by how much it changes the distance? Really too late now, I ordered the 16".


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Old 10-13-2012, 06:14   #29
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Do you know by how much it changes the distance? Really too late now, I ordered the 16".


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If you take a standard Federal Gold Medal Match load with the 175 grain bullet you will see a muzzle velocity of around 2650 fps with a 20" barrel. Trim it back to 16" and you are looking at about 2450 (I disagree with the 100 fps loss per inch--its more like 50 fps in my experience).

If you really want an eye opener look up the numbers for a Sierra 168 Gold Medal Match load and make the velocity adjustment for the shorter barrel and look where it goes sub-sonic. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people try to shoot that load at 1,000 yards with a short barrel gun and have been in the pits and have seen the bullets keyhole. I've had more than a few people here tell me I'm full of crap when I say this. But the ballistics calculator doesn't lie. Run the numbers for yourself. The 168 grain bullet is a crappy long range bullet for different reasons as well. But the retained velocity of this bullet out of a short barrel is pitiful.

Run the above numbers through any ballistics calculator and you will see that the 20" barrel keeps the 175 grain supersonic well out to ~1100 yards while the 16" barrel will be dropping below the supersonic barrier at ~1,000 yards. That's at sea level.

At 500 and beyond its the wind that gets you though and velocity matters in the wind. Its not the wind you can dope that gets you. (providing you can dope wind) Its the wind that you can't predict. I've personally used windage corrections at 1,000 yards that involved 30 quarter MOA clicks of applied windage--that's more than 7 feet of wind drift... If a small gust catches you bullet it will blow it 9-10 inches at 1,000. Again, velocity matters--and I should rephrase that to; RETAINED velocity matters most. Muzzle velocity is largely irrelevant except that it contributes to retained velocity downrange.

I'm unimpressed with people who tell me things like I've seen people make hits with a given platform at 1,000 yards etc. How many shots did it take to make a hit? Under what conditions? Known distance range? Sighters? Hell, if I throw enough lead downrange with my Colt Single Action I'm quite certain I can make hits at 500 yards...
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Old 10-13-2012, 07:18   #30
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Originally Posted by Big Bird View Post
Insert all the stuff that Big Bird said...
Paraphrashing what big bird wrote:

Load development has a large role to play in where (along the flight path) a bullet will go into the subsonic speeds. BC of the projectile gets a vote here.

Environmental (particularly the density altitude and wind conditions) can wreak havoc on your attempts... Ballistic solvers are all well and good, but the bullet really tells you what's going on.

True the ballistic solver and then you have the no-crap answer as to what is happening between the internal and external ballistics of your rifle/bullet combo.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:44   #31
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Paraphrashing what big bird wrote:

Load development has a large role to play in where (along the flight path) a bullet will go into the subsonic speeds. BC of the projectile gets a vote here.

Environmental (particularly the density altitude and wind conditions) can wreak havoc on your attempts... Ballistic solvers are all well and good, but the bullet really tells you what's going on.

True the ballistic solver and then you have the no-crap answer as to what is happening between the internal and external ballistics of your rifle/bullet combo.
Its also been my experience in working up 1,000 yard loads that standard deviation means a lot in terms of accuracy. You take a .308 load of most any flavor with a standard deviation of between 30 and 40 FPS and you have a built in 1-1.5 MOA dispersion factor at 1,000 yards added to the mechanical accuracy of the platform. That's 10-12" load to load vertical dispersion on the target based solely on small velocity changes. I always tried to get my long range loads down to under 10 FPS Standard Deviation.
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Old 11-30-2012, 09:45   #32
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Thread Resurrection.

Still waiting on the rifle but the suppressor is in. I think I have decided on the NF F1 3.5-15x50 with the NP-RF1 reticle and an Aimpoint T1 in a LaRue offset mount. I was going to get the H58/H59 reticle but the premium that reticle commands is the same price as the T1.

Anyone have any experience with this particular scope?
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:14   #33
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I ended up with an 18 inch LR .308 because that is the longest rifle that I can easily handle getting in and out of my vehicles. Getting tangled up while trying to deploy a rifle is potentially a bigger issue for me than being limited to 987.2 yards. For those who enjoy 1000+ yard competitions, choose what works best for you.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:18   #34
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Would anybody else be interested in a .260 rem AR style rifle if one of the higher quality makers built one? That would be a sweet 18 inch rifle.
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Old 11-30-2012, 11:31   #35
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Would anybody else be interested in a .260 rem AR style rifle if one of the higher quality makers built one? That would be a sweet 18 inch rifle.
I think that would be really cool for long range. The .260 flat smokes the .308 at long ranges.
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Old 11-30-2012, 13:41   #36
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Trav I've shot that scope, on an OBR, but only at 100m.
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Old 11-30-2012, 19:40   #37
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Trav I've shot that scope, on an OBR, but only at 100m.
Seems to be everyone's experience. I guess I'll just have to cough up the $2300 and try it out.
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Old 12-08-2012, 06:41   #38
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I think that would be really cool for long range. The .260 flat smokes the .308 at long ranges.

Maybe handloaded it does. But I don't see any off the shelf ammo that will do it. All the commercial ammo I've seen is mostly 300 yard deer loads.
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:27   #39
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TravClem, I'm very jealous. I have an AR10T that sucks and is getting a new barrel as we speak. I have no idea how much money I spent on trips to the range, load development, shipping costs to armalite for 2 new barrels before I threw the towel in and acknowledged armalite sucked. I now am paying for a bartlein to be put on it and would have been so much better off with an OBR.

During that process I bought the 5.56 OBR in 18" It is magnificent, test group was slightly over 1/2 minute. I can consistently shoot it the same and sometimes better.

The lesson I learned was to buy quality once and be done with it. As a fellow Texan, I'm sure you will also share an extra source of pride looking at a silhouette of Texas on the side of your rifle. Good for you.
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:38   #40
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TravClem, I'm very jealous. I have an AR10T that sucks and is getting a new barrel as we speak. I have no idea how much money I spent on trips to the range, load development, shipping costs to armalite for 2 new barrels before I threw the towel in and acknowledged armalite sucked. I now am paying for a bartlein to be put on it and would have been so much better off with an OBR.

During that process I bought the 5.56 OBR in 18" It is magnificent, test group was slightly over 1/2 minute. I can consistently shoot it the same and sometimes better.

The lesson I learned was to buy quality once and be done with it. As a fellow Texan, I'm sure you will also share an extra source of pride looking at a silhouette of Texas on the side of your rifle. Good for you.
We call it "Buy once, cry once."
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Old 12-08-2012, 07:42   #41
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Maybe handloaded it does. But I don't see any off the shelf ammo that will do it. All the commercial ammo I've seen is mostly 300 yard deer loads.
Here are some good off the shelf loads.
http://www.southwestammunition.com/category_s/83.htm

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produc...oducts_id/4832


.260 is a ballistically superior round in every aspect to the .308. The 142gr. 6.5mm matchking has a better sectional density and ballistic coefficient than the .308 175gr and 190gr. Matchkings. At distance, the .260 blows the .308 out of the water. It shoots flatter and has less wind drift.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-c...remington/?p=2
According to this article by Zak Smith, a 140gr .260 carries 87% of the energy of a 190gr .300win mag at 1000yds.


IMO the only reason .308 is popular is due to its military use. 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm are all ballistically superior to the 7.62mm.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:16   #42
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.260 is a ballistically superior round in every aspect to the .308. The 142gr. 6.5mm matchking has a better sectional density and ballistic coefficient than the .308 175gr and 190gr. Matchkings. At distance, the .260 blows the .308 out of the water. It shoots flatter and has less wind drift.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-c...remington/?p=2
According to this article by Zak Smith, a 140gr .260 carries 87% of the energy of a 190gr .300win mag at 1000yds.


IMO the only reason .308 is popular is due to its military use. 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm are all ballistically superior to the 7.62mm.
I've been curious about 6.5 Lapua for some time now. I wonder if an AR-10 pattern rifle could be made to work in it....
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:24   #43
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I've been curious about 6.5 Lapua for some time now. I wonder if an AR-10 pattern rifle could be made to work in it....
Sure could, it shares the .308 casehead as well. Just have to get a barrel chambered for it.

Here is another good read on the 6.5mms by Zak.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-s...6.5-creedmoor/
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:29   #44
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Sure could, it shares the .308 casehead as well. Just have to get a barrel chambered for it.

Here is another good read on the 6.5mms by Zak.
http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-s...6.5-creedmoor/
Heh. I was just reading that article, actually.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:33   #45
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TravClem, I'm very jealous. I have an AR10T that sucks and is getting a new barrel as we speak. I have no idea how much money I spent on trips to the range, load development, shipping costs to armalite for 2 new barrels before I threw the towel in and acknowledged armalite sucked. I now am paying for a bartlein to be put on it and would have been so much better off with an OBR.

During that process I bought the 5.56 OBR in 18" It is magnificent, test group was slightly over 1/2 minute. I can consistently shoot it the same and sometimes better.

The lesson I learned was to buy quality once and be done with it. As a fellow Texan, I'm sure you will also share an extra source of pride looking at a silhouette of Texas on the side of your rifle. Good for you.
I have learned that lesson a few times myself. 9 times out of 10 you spend less money by buying the better item right out of the gate, even though the initial cost is higher.
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Old 12-08-2012, 08:44   #46
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I have learned that lesson a few times myself. 9 times out of 10 you spend less money by buying the better item right out of the gate, even though the initial cost is higher.

This is the damn truth. I have learned this lesson the hard way once or twice - never again.
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Old 12-08-2012, 14:28   #47
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Here are some good off the shelf loads.
http://www.southwestammunition.com/category_s/83.htm

http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/produc...oducts_id/4832


.260 is a ballistically superior round in every aspect to the .308. The 142gr. 6.5mm matchking has a better sectional density and ballistic coefficient than the .308 175gr and 190gr. Matchkings. At distance, the .260 blows the .308 out of the water. It shoots flatter and has less wind drift.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/the-c...remington/?p=2
According to this article by Zak Smith, a 140gr .260 carries 87% of the energy of a 190gr .300win mag at 1000yds.


IMO the only reason .308 is popular is due to its military use. 6mm, 6.5mm, and 7mm are all ballistically superior to the 7.62mm.
Holy crap! That stuff's $1.50 a pop... Won't be shooting a lot of that. But of course it comes with superb Lapua brass so at least you have something to reload.

I don't doubt the long range numbers on the .260 a bit and cartainly if you shoot a good deal at long range the reduced recoil helps as well.

But at the end of the day there's no magic long range bullet/cartridge. Shooting at 600 and beyond is truly a game of skill and no ballistic coefficient or velocity delta will save you. You either know your come ups and wind dope or you don't. And it really matters not a hill of beans if you have to add 12 clicks right windage and I have to add 15 at 800 yards You either dial it in or you miss. Same with come ups.

At 1,000 yards a top Palma shooter with 155 grain bullets and iron sights will outshoot a novice shooter with a Nightforce scope and a .260 Remington with 142 grain match bullets all day long. I've seen it with even more experienced long range shots.

Truly the equipment can give you an edge. But it won't win the day.

In truth--if you have "work" to do at 1,000 yards (not just punching holes in paper) you will be beter served with a larger cartridge like a .300 Win Mag or a .338 Lapua. There's no substitute for mass when it comes to really getting the job done WAY downrange.
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Old 12-08-2012, 14:42   #48
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Holy crap! That stuff's $1.50 a pop... Won't be shooting a lot of that. But of course it comes with superb Lapua brass so at least you have something to reload.

I don't doubt the long range numbers on the .260 a bit and cartainly if you shoot a good deal at long range the reduced recoil helps as well.

But at the end of the day there's no magic long range bullet/cartridge. Shooting at 600 and beyond is truly a game of skill and no ballistic coefficient or velocity delta will save you. You either know your come ups and wind dope or you don't. And it really matters not a hill of beans if you have to add 12 clicks right windage and I have to add 15 at 800 yards You either dial it in or you miss. Same with come ups.

At 1,000 yards a top Palma shooter with 155 grain bullets and iron sights will outshoot a novice shooter with a Nightforce scope and a .260 Remington with 142 grain match bullets all day long. I've seen it with even more experienced long range shots.

Truly the equipment can give you an edge. But it won't win the day.

In truth--if you have "work" to do at 1,000 yards (not just punching holes in paper) you will be beter served with a larger cartridge like a .300 Win Mag or a .338 Lapua. There's no substitute for mass when it comes to really getting the job done WAY downrange.
All true, I was just saying that a .260 flat smokes a .308. I like my .308s and just spent a lot of money on another one. My argument was strictly on the actual round's performance, not that it would make up for a lack of skill. Although, every little advantage helps when you are shooting on the razors edge of accuracy at distance. Since you can't stuff a .300WM in an AR, the .260 just almost gets you the same performance.

I would like to have a .408 Cheytac. That is THE long range "work" cartridge at this point it time. Way too expensive for me though.
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