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Old 10-11-2012, 20:58   #351
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So a $600 fine will cover the medical expenses of getting hit by a bus?
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Old 10-11-2012, 20:59   #352
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Strawman (alot this evening). Your argument (if it were valid) is debatable anyway. Yes ... there are plenty of bureaucratic, costly government programs.

This says nothing of the fact that Obamacare being portrayed as a huge government takeover of health care is nonsense. It is, at its core, basically one new regulation on a private industry ("the mandate") which also is in turn a humongous boon to the same private industry (do you remember them opposing Obamacare) in terms if a vast increase of paying customers.
That's bull Sh##.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:00   #353
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They inserted themselves into healthcare and costs have gone through the stratosphere (Medicare).

They did it in higher education and costs have gone through the stratosphere.
What a bunch of baloney. The higher costs of Medicare are almost entirely due to demographics. Combine that with the perverse system of denial of coverage in the private market due to pre-existing conditions and folks like the aforemenioned "22 year old" choosing to gamble .... leading to hospitals passing on unpaid medical debt the us.

There are many studies that account for Medicare as a wonderful success ... especially if you don't ONLY count dollars.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:02   #354
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Another strawman. You aren't providing more healthcare. People are already getting it (before Obamacare). There will be no net increase in people receiving care, only a change in the manner (i.e., less costly) in which they receive it.
Strawman not.

What about all these folks the socialists whine about falling through the cracks?

What about the people you were mentioning who delay getting care because they're uninsured? Were they getting care when they were delaying care? Is that how this works.

How does it work in the UK? Canada? They have less healthcare than they need. What happens?

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Again ... purposefully obtuse arguments don't make you look too sharp.

Neither does mucking up and clogging the thread by making one-liner posts to be cute.
One liner posts keep things cleaner.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:06   #355
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Don't you think you could let me keep this $2500 or so in tax savings?
Nonsense .. you are lying or tax illiterate. You didn't save 2500, you REDUCED YOUR TAXABLE INCOME by 2500. Big difference. My guess is you can't even quantify the actual amount in "tax savings".

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Actually, it was several thousand dollars. More stealth tax increases.

But again, what does it matter? You said I could keep my plan, now you tell me "too frickin bad".

Which is it?
There is no tax increase. You will (and this isn't even carved in stone yet) lose further opportunity to decrease your taxable income by 2500 by shuffling that amount into the HSA. Two totally different things.

You CAN keep your health care plan. You probably will not be able to keep your HSA (in the manner you do today). Two different things.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:06   #356
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I've already explained the concept to you. It is a macro-economic effect of motivating that not to happen (i.e.,. to pay the fine). You aren't winning by being purposely obtuse.
So, what if the guy doesn't pay the fine? Who pays for his coverage then? Remember, there is no penalty for not paying the fine.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:09   #357
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That's bull Sh##.
Prove me wrong. What else is it?
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:10   #358
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What a bunch of baloney. The higher costs of Medicare are almost entirely due to demographics. Combine that with the perverse system of denial of coverage in the private market due to pre-existing conditions and folks like the aforemenioned "22 year old" choosing to gamble .... leading to hospitals passing on unpaid medical debt the us.

There are many studies that account for Medicare as a wonderful success ... especially if you don't ONLY count dollars.
Weren't you lecturing someone on macroeconomics upthread? And now this willful ignorance?



What you have in the current healthcare system is a textbook case of government money inflating the market, thanks to Medicare. When you subsidize the healthcare of the largest consumers, prices rise.

Medicare, government money, is what caused this situation. More government money will make it worse.

Ultimately you can't give everyone all the healthcare they want. We simply can't "make" enough. It has to be rationed like any other resource.

The choice then becomes, who or what will do the rationing. Under the socialist plan, political appointees will do the rationing.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:11   #359
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So, what if the guy doesn't pay the fine? Who pays for his coverage then? Remember, there is no penalty for not paying the fine.
Well, they'll take it out of the Earned Income Tax Credit welfare payment they were going to get.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:12   #360
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Prove me wrong. What else is it?
1. Retiree Reserve Trust Fund (Section 111(d), p. 61)
2. Grant program for wellness programs to small employers (Section 112, p. 62)
3. Grant program for State health access programs (Section 114, p. 72)
4. Program of administrative simplification (Section 115, p. 76)
5. Health Benefits Advisory Committee (Section 223, p. 111)
6. Health Choices Administration (Section 241, p. 131)
7. Qualified Health Benefits Plan Ombudsman (Section 244, p. 138)
8. Health Insurance Exchange (Section 201, p. 155)
9. Program for technical assistance to employees of small businesses buying Exchange coverage (Section 305(h), p. 191)
10. Mechanism for insurance risk pooling to be established by Health Choices Commissioner (Section 306(b), p. 194)
11. Health Insurance Exchange Trust Fund (Section 307, p. 195)
12. State-based Health Insurance Exchanges (Section 308, p. 197)
13. Grant program for health insurance cooperatives (Section 310, p. 206)
14. “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321, p. 211)
15. Ombudsman for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321(d), p. 213)
16. Account for receipts and disbursements for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 322(b), p. 215)
17. Telehealth Advisory Committee (Section 1191 (b), p. 589)
18. Demonstration program providing reimbursement for “culturally and linguistically appropriate services” (Section 1222, p. 617)
19. Demonstration program for shared decision making using patient decision aids (Section 1236, p. 648)
20. Accountable Care Organization pilot program under Medicare (Section 1301, p. 653)
21. Independent patient-centered medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302, p. 672)
22. Community-based medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302(d), p. 681)
23. Independence at home demonstration program (Section 1312, p. 718)
24. Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research (Section 1401(a), p. 734)
25. Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission (Section 1401(a), p. 738)
26. Patient ombudsman for comparative effectiveness research (Section 1401(a), p. 753)
27. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1412(b)(1), p. 784)
28. Quality assurance and performance improvement program for nursing facilities (Section 1412 (b)(2), p. 786)
29. Special focus facility program for skilled nursing facilities (Section 1413(a)(3), p. 796)
30. Special focus facility program for nursing facilities (Section 1413(b)(3), p. 804)
31. National independent monitor pilot program for skilled nursing facilities and nursing facilities (Section 1422, p. 859)
32. Demonstration program for approved teaching health centers with respect to Medicare GME (Section 1502(d), p. 933)
33. Pilot program to develop anti-fraud compliance systems for Medicare providers (Section 1635, p. 978)
34. Special Inspector General for the Health Insurance Exchange (Section 1647, p. 1000)
35. Medical home pilot program under Medicaid (Section 1722, p. 1058)
36. Accountable Care Organization pilot program under Medicaid (Section 1730A, p. 1073)
37. Nursing facility supplemental payment program (Section 1745, p. 1106)
38. Demonstration program for Medicaid coverage to stabilize emergency medical conditions in institutions for mental diseases (Section 1787, p. 1149)
39. Comparative Effectiveness Research Trust Fund (Section 1802, p. 1162)
40. “Identifiable office or program” within CMS to “provide for improved coordination between Medicare and Medicaid in the case of dual eligibles” (Section 1905, p. 1191)
41. Center for Medicare and Medicaid Innovation (Section 1907, p. 1198)
42. Public Health Investment Fund (Section 2002, p. 1214)
43. Scholarships for service in health professional needs areas (Section 2211, p. 1224)
44. Program for training medical residents in community-based settings (Section 2214, p. 1236)
45. Grant program for training in dentistry programs (Section 2215, p. 1240)
46. Public Health Workforce Corps (Section 2231, p. 1253)
47. Public health workforce scholarship program (Section 2231, p. 1254)
48. Public health workforce loan forgiveness program (Section 2231, p. 1258)
49. Grant program for innovations in interdisciplinary care (Section 2252, p. 1272)
50. Advisory Committee on Health Workforce Evaluation and Assessment (Section 2261, p. 1275)
51. Prevention and Wellness Trust (Section 2301, p. 1286)
52. Clinical Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 1295)
53. Community Prevention Stakeholders Board (Section 2301, p. 1301)
54. Grant program for community prevention and wellness research (Section 2301, p. 1305)
55. Grant program for research and demonstration projects related to wellness incentives (Section 2301, p. 1305)
56. Grant program for community prevention and wellness services (Section 2301, p. 1308)
57. Grant program for public health infrastructure (Section 2301, p. 1313)
58. Center for Quality Improvement (Section 2401, p. 1322)
59. Assistant Secretary for Health Information (Section 2402, p. 1330)
60. Grant program to support the operation of school-based health clinics (Section 2511, p. 1352)
61. Grant program for nurse-managed health centers (Section 2512, p. 1361)
62. Grants for labor-management programs for nursing training (Section 2521, p. 1372)
63. Grant program for interdisciplinary mental and behavioral health training (Section 2522, p. 1382)
64. “No Child Left Unimmunized Against Influenza” demonstration grant program (Section 2524, p. 1391)
65. Healthy Teen Initiative grant program regarding teen pregnancy (Section 2526, p. 1398)
66. Grant program for interdisciplinary training, education, and services for individuals with autism (Section 2527(a), p. 1402)
67. University centers for excellence in developmental disabilities education (Section 2527(b), p. 1410)
68. Grant program to implement medication therapy management services (Section 2528, p. 1412)
69. Grant program to promote positive health behaviors in underserved communities (Section 2530, p. 1422)
70. Grant program for State alternative medical liability laws (Section 2531, p. 1431)
71. Grant program to develop infant mortality programs (Section 2532, p. 1433)
72. Grant program to prepare secondary school students for careers in health professions (Section 2533, p. 1437)
73. Grant program for community-based collaborative care (Section 2534, p. 1440)
74. Grant program for community-based overweight and obesity prevention (Section 2535, p. 1457)
75. Grant program for reducing the student-to-school nurse ratio in primary and secondary schools (Section 2536, p. 1462)
76. Demonstration project of grants to medical-legal partnerships (Section 2537, p. 1464)
77. Center for Emergency Care under the Assistant Secretary for Preparedness and Response (Section 2552, p. 1478)
78. Council for Emergency Care (Section 2552, p 1479)
79. Grant program to support demonstration programs that design and implement regionalized emergency care systems (Section 2553, p. 1480)
80. Grant program to assist veterans who wish to become emergency medical technicians upon discharge (Section 2554, p. 1487)
81. Interagency Pain Research Coordinating Committee (Section 2562, p. 1494)
82. National Medical Device Registry (Section 2571, p. 1501)
83. CLASS Independence Fund (Section 2581, p. 1597)
84. CLASS Independence Fund Board of Trustees (Section 2581, p. 1598)
85. CLASS Independence Advisory Council (Section 2581, p. 1602)
86. Health and Human Services Coordinating Committee on Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1610)
87. National Women’s Health Information Center (Section 2588, p. 1611)
88. Centers for Disease Control Office of Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1614)
89. Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality Office of Women’s Health and Gender-Based Research (Section 2588, p. 1617)
90. Health Resources and Services Administration Office of Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1618)
91. Food and Drug Administration Office of Women’s Health (Section 2588, p. 1621)
92. Personal Care Attendant Workforce Advisory Panel (Section 2589(a)(2), p. 1624)
93. Grant program for national health workforce online training (Section 2591, p. 1629)
94. Grant program to disseminate best practices on implementing health workforce investment programs (Section 2591, p. 1632)
95. Demonstration program for chronic shortages of health professionals (Section 3101, p. 1717)
96. Demonstration program for substance abuse counselor educational curricula (Section 3101, p. 1719)
97. Program of Indian community education on mental illness (Section 3101, p. 1722)
98. Intergovernmental Task Force on Indian environmental and nuclear hazards (Section 3101, p. 1754)
99. Office of Indian Men’s Health (Section 3101, p. 1765)
100. Indian Health facilities appropriation advisory board (Section 3101, p. 1774)
101. Indian Health facilities needs assessment workgroup (Section 3101, p. 1775)
102. Indian Health Service tribal facilities joint venture demonstration projects (Section 3101, p. 1809)
103. Urban youth treatment center demonstration project (Section 3101, p. 1873)
104. Grants to Urban Indian Organizations for diabetes prevention (Section 3101, p. 1874)
105. Grants to Urban Indian Organizations for health IT adoption (Section 3101, p. 1877)
106. Mental health technician training program (Section 3101, p. 1898)
107. Indian youth telemental health demonstration project (Section 3101, p. 1909)
108. Program for treatment of child sexual abuse victims and perpetrators (Section 3101, p. 1925)
109. Program for treatment of domestic violence and sexual abuse (Section 3101, p. 1927)
110. Native American Health and Wellness Foundation (Section 3103, p. 1966)
111. Committee for the Establishment of the Native American Health and Wellness Foundation (Section 3103, p. 1968)
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:14   #361
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So, what if the guy doesn't pay the fine? Who pays for his coverage then? Remember, there is no penalty for not paying the fine.
I've already explained it twice. You are looking at it from a micro-economic standpoint ... if you will. The tax penalty is the carrot/stick in the macro-economic sense to get you to get the guy to insure himself.

No penalty for not paying the IRS? What world do you live in? Stick with me: If a person can afford to buy insurance, but doesn't, that implies they have met the income/net worth threshold for it to be required. They will be afforded a tax penalty. If they don't said penalty to the IRS, their wages will be garnished and/or liens placed on assets. Just like if you don't pay any other taxes to the fed gov.

Last edited by douggmc; 10-11-2012 at 21:19..
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:17   #362
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Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
1. Retiree Reserve Trust Fund (Section 111(d), p. 61)
2. Grant program for wellness programs to small employers (Section 112, p. 62)
3. Grant program for State health access programs (Section 114, p. 72)
4. Program of administrative simplification (Section 115, p. 76)
5. Health Benefits Advisory Committee (Section 223, p. 111)
6. Health Choices Administration (Section 241, p. 131)
7. Qualified Health Benefits Plan Ombudsman (Section 244, p. 138)
8. Health Insurance Exchange (Section 201, p. 155)
9. Program for technical assistance to employees of small businesses buying Exchange coverage (Section 305(h), p. 191)
10. Mechanism for insurance risk pooling to be established by Health Choices Commissioner (Section 306(b), p. 194)
11. Health Insurance Exchange Trust Fund (Section 307, p. 195)
12. State-based Health Insurance Exchanges (Section 308, p. 197)
13. Grant program for health insurance cooperatives (Section 310, p. 206)
14. “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321, p. 211)
15. Ombudsman for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321(d), p. 213)
16. Account for receipts and disbursements for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 322(b), p. 215)
17. Telehealth Advisory Committee (Section 1191 (b), p. 589)
18. Demonstration program providing reimbursement for “culturally and linguistically appropriate services” (Section 1222, p. 617)
19. Demonstration program for shared decision making using patient decision aids (Section 1236, p. 648)
20. Accountable Care Organization pilot program under Medicare (Section 1301, p. 653)
21. Independent patient-centered medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302, p. 672)
22. Community-based medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302(d), p. 681)
23. Independence at home demonstration program (Section 1312, p. 718)
24. Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research (Section 1401(a), p. 734)
25. Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission (Section 1401(a), p. 738)
26. Patient ombudsman for comparative effectiveness research (Section 1401(a), p. 753)
.... yada yada ...
As I suspected. Quantify it. The only CORE (key word ... see my original post above that you say is "bull****"), MEANINGFUL impact is "the mandate" ... and the mandate is the only way Obamacare would work.

Last edited by douggmc; 10-11-2012 at 21:18..
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:19   #363
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Nonsense .. you are lying or tax illiterate. You didn't save 2500, you REDUCED YOUR TAXABLE INCOME by 2500. Big difference. My guess is you can't even quantify the actual amount in "tax savings".
I dunno. 2012 max HSA contribution is $6250. $2500 might be a little high but its close. Call it $2000. IIRC, fed takes about .30 of every dollar from us in income tax.

That's a tax increase.

Quote:
There is no tax increase. You will (and this isn't even carved in stone yet) lose further opportunity to decrease your taxable income by 2500 by shuffling that amount into the HSA. Two totally different things.
You even lie to yourself! That's a tax increase.

Right now that's $2000 that the government doesn't get from me. Now, they'll get it.

And by eliminating my high deductible plan, you increase my premiums and force me to pay for healthcare I don't need. You can call it whatever you want but that's a defacto tax increase.

Quote:
You CAN keep your health care plan. You probably will not be able to keep your HSA (in the manner you do today). Two different things.
Bull****. HSA works in tandem with high deductible plans. Gone.

You lie
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:19   #364
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As I suspected. Quantify it. The only CORE (key word ... see my original post above that you say is "bull****"), MEANINGFUL impact is "the mandate" ... and the mandate is the only way Obamacare would work.
Mandate is another word for taxation.
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:20   #365
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I've already explained it twice. You are looking at it from a micro-economic standpoint ... if you will. The tax penalty is the carrot/stick in the macro-economic sense to get you to get the guy to insure himself.

No penalty for not paying the IRS? What world do you live in? Stick with me: If a person can afford to buy insurance, but doesn't, that implies they have met the income/net worth threshold for it to be required. They will be afforded a tax penalty. If they don't said penalty to the IRS, their wages will be garnished and/or liens placed on assets. Just like if you don't pay any other taxes to the fed gov.
"They will be AFFORDED a tax penalty."



Afforded?
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:22   #366
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I've already explained it twice. You are looking at it from a micro-economic standpoint ... if you will. The tax penalty is the carrot/stick in the macro-economic sense to get you to get the guy to insure himself.

No penalty for not paying the IRS? What world do you live in? Stick with me: If a person can afford to buy insurance, but doesn't, that implies they have met the income/net worth threshold for it to be required. They will be afforded a tax penalty. If they don't said penalty to the IRS, their wages will be garnished and/or liens placed on assets. Just like if you don't pay any other taxes to the fed gov.
So wait.........what about the people who don't meet that income threshold? They don't get penalized? They don't chip in? But they get the same health insurance I do?

WTF?
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:24   #367
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Nonsense .. you are lying or tax illiterate. You didn't save 2500, you REDUCED YOUR TAXABLE INCOME by 2500. Big difference. My guess is you can't even quantify the actual amount in "tax savings".



There is no tax increase. You will (and this isn't even carved in stone yet) lose further opportunity to decrease your taxable income by 2500 by shuffling that amount into the HSA. Two totally different things.

You CAN keep your health care plan. You probably will not be able to keep your HSA (in the manner you do today). Two different things.
Have you told that to the Darden restaurant employees?
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:24   #368
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As I suspected. Quantify it. The only CORE (key word ... see my original post above that you say is "bull****"), MEANINGFUL impact is "the mandate" ... and the mandate is the only way Obamacare would work.
Yeah, to continue the lie you have to gloss over this. Ignore it.

hey, is all of this free?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruble Noon
1. Retiree Reserve Trust Fund (Section 111(d), p. 61)
2. Grant program for wellness programs to small employers (Section 112, p. 62)
3. Grant program for State health access programs (Section 114, p. 72)
4. Program of administrative simplification (Section 115, p. 76)
5. Health Benefits Advisory Committee (Section 223, p. 111)
6. Health Choices Administration (Section 241, p. 131)
7. Qualified Health Benefits Plan Ombudsman (Section 244, p. 138)
8. Health Insurance Exchange (Section 201, p. 155)
9. Program for technical assistance to employees of small businesses buying Exchange coverage (Section 305(h), p. 191)
10. Mechanism for insurance risk pooling to be established by Health Choices Commissioner (Section 306(b), p. 194)
11. Health Insurance Exchange Trust Fund (Section 307, p. 195)
12. State-based Health Insurance Exchanges (Section 308, p. 197)
13. Grant program for health insurance cooperatives (Section 310, p. 206)
14. “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321, p. 211)
15. Ombudsman for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 321(d), p. 213)
16. Account for receipts and disbursements for “Public Health Insurance Option” (Section 322(b), p. 215)
17. Telehealth Advisory Committee (Section 1191 (b), p. 589)
18. Demonstration program providing reimbursement for “culturally and linguistically appropriate services” (Section 1222, p. 617)
19. Demonstration program for shared decision making using patient decision aids (Section 1236, p. 648)
20. Accountable Care Organization pilot program under Medicare (Section 1301, p. 653)
21. Independent patient-centered medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302, p. 672)
22. Community-based medical home pilot program under Medicare (Section 1302(d), p. 681)
23. Independence at home demonstration program (Section 1312, p. 718)
24. Center for Comparative Effectiveness Research (Section 1401(a), p. 734)
25. Comparative Effectiveness Research Commission (Section 1401(a), p. 738)
26. Patient ombudsman for comparative effectiveness research (Section 1401(a), p. 753)
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:27   #369
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I've already explained it twice. You are looking at it from a micro-economic standpoint ... if you will. The tax penalty is the carrot/stick in the macro-economic sense to get you to get the guy to insure himself.

No penalty for not paying the IRS? What world do you live in? Stick with me: If a person can afford to buy insurance, but doesn't, that implies they have met the income/net worth threshold for it to be required. They will be afforded a tax penalty. If they don't said penalty to the IRS, their wages will be garnished and/or liens placed on assets. Just like if you don't pay any other taxes to the fed gov.
Dude, Roberts and the SC took away the collection mechanism for collecting the "tax penalty".
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:28   #370
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As I suspected. Quantify it. The only CORE (key word ... see my original post above that you say is "bull****"), MEANINGFUL impact is "the mandate" ... and the mandate is the only way Obamacare would work.

So, you concede then that Obamacare is more than just the mandate as you claim?
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:30   #371
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hey, is all of this free?

According to Doug. Maybe they are going to pay for it out of Obama's stash. Hey Doug, how much money is in Obama's stash?
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:34   #372
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Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
Dude, Roberts and the SC took away the collection mechanism for collecting the "tax penalty".
Nice catch.

hey doug - what about this? How are you going to pay for your socialism if you can't collect?
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Old 10-11-2012, 21:49   #373
douggmc
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Originally Posted by certifiedfunds View Post
I dunno. 2012 max HSA contribution is $6250. $2500 might be a little high but its close. Call it $2000. IIRC, fed takes about .30 of every dollar from us in income tax.

That's a tax increase.
You know what ... I'll back track a bit and recognize you may very well be saving ~2000 a year with the HSA. I forgot your wife was a Dentist, so you make much more than the average househould. Making an assumption of 400,000 income ... all else being equal ... my tax calculator resulted in a delta of 2000 pretty much spot on (http://www.taxbrain.com/taxcenter/ta...alculator7.asp ... assumptions: 400,000 married filed jointly income, two non-adult kids, 100,000 wage withholding).
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:00   #374
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Originally Posted by douggmc View Post
You know what ... I'll back track a bit and recognize you may very well be saving ~2000 a year with the HSA. I forgot your wife was a Dentist, so you make much more than the average househould. Making an assumption of 400,000 income ... all else being equal ... my tax calculator resulted in a delta of 2000 pretty much spot on (http://www.taxbrain.com/taxcenter/ta...alculator7.asp ... assumptions: 400,000 married filed jointly income, two non-adult kids, 100,000 wage withholding).
You're off. We're a two income household. taxes are significantly higher than your calculator.

And you continue to ignore the savings associated with a high deductible plan.

My taxes are going up for Obamacare and my insurance premiums are going up.

But I'm getting no more healthcare for it.

Last edited by certifiedfunds; 10-11-2012 at 22:07..
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Old 10-11-2012, 22:04   #375
douggmc
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Originally Posted by Ruble Noon View Post
Dude, Roberts and the SC took away the collection mechanism for collecting the "tax penalty".
The ruling did no such thing.

If nothing else, since it is a penalty maybe they won't be able to apply a lien on your house or garnish wages (but don't but your house on it ... pun intended ... by playing chicken with the IRS), but they can still withhold any refund due in lieu of the penalty that year and/or in future years.

The IRS will collect ... at one point or another. You won't skate past it.

Last edited by douggmc; 10-11-2012 at 22:17..
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