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Old 10-10-2012, 16:56   #51
ithaca_deerslayer
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Originally Posted by Hour13 View Post
I though you might like that.


That is a 20", in a 1/7 twist. It should run your lighter quality ammo just fine out to 200yds. For distances past that, load it up with some heavier BTHPs, and it aughta be a tack-driver.

Don't know what the price is, you'd have to contact BCM. But I'd imagine that set-up will probably fall in around $1,200.

..
Hmm, now you've got my attention

Wonder how the quality compares to Colt.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:04   #52
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Hmm, now you've got my attention

Wonder how the quality compares to Colt.
Every bit as good.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:05   #53
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If your budget is to $1500, my choice would be Daniel defense M4. They have excellent QC. Completely mil-spec, and then some. Cold hammer forged barrels, and free float rails that are among the best available, IMO. Basically with the DD youre getting all the bells and whistles that you would have to buy aftermarket if you went with the Colt. Not dissing the Colt at all, it is an EXCELLENT weapon, but you're gonna want to put a rail on it, and other stuff. So I say just go with the DD and call it a day!
Was just talking to soneone today who pretty much said the same thing about DD.

He also mentioned that NYS post-ban only allows fixed stocks. (Not sure how that relates to shotguns, I'll look the law up later, might only pertain to pistol grips).

Evidentally all the M4 looking guns in NYS stores only look like they have adjustable stocks, but are welded or glued or something, so can't be adjusted. But I assume stocks on AR's can be replaced to a different size (as long as still not adjustable).

Knowing all that makes me lean more toward the old fashioned A2 type stock.
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:41   #54
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I thought this thread was my research

Eventually, l'll get a couple guys I know to crack open their safes and let me dirty up their guns. After hunting season. So it will probably be a mid-winter test drive of what they've.

We'll see if my want of an AR lasts till then.
I really wasn't trying to be a jerk.

I personally feel weird about telling someone they'll be GTG with something when there is debate about it. I think you'll be fine with a 1:7 twist, and experience tells me you'll be fine. A 1:7 will let you shoot the heavier bullets for longer range.

It's a trade off, chrome lined is more durable, stainless steel is more accurate. If you are OK with around 2 MOA a chrome-lined is fine. If you want better, stainless will get you there.

For $1,682.00 you can get a Larue Tactical PredatAR in 16" or 18". A light weight rifle that will get you great accuracy. It has a 1:8 twist stainless barrel with a Geissele 2 stage trigger. They are really cool rifles!
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:48   #55
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I really wasn't trying to be a jerk.

I personally feel weird about telling someone they'll be GTG with something when there is debate about it. I think you'll be fine with a 1:7 twist, and experience tells me you'll be fine. A 1:7 will let you shoot the heavier bullets for longer range.

It's a trade off, chrome lined is more durable, stainless steel is more accurate. If you are OK with around 2 MOA a chrome-lined is fine. If you want better, stainless will get you there.

For $1,682.00 you can get a Larue Tactical PredatAR in 16" or 18". A light weight rifle that will get you great accuracy. It has a 1:8 twist stainless barrel with a Geissele 2 stage trigger. They are really cool rifles!
J word? Heck no. You are being most helpful and I appreciate it.

I've found over the years that GT has a high level of expertise in any area. Wanna know about sewing, I bet there are some people on GT who know all about it.

Ok, just how fragile are stainless steel barrels? Aren't some higher priced bolt all-weather hunting rifles made with them?

Also, why is stainless more accurate. Last time I shot benchrest competitions (20 years ago) I never noticed anyone using stainless. Of course, nobody was using AR's either

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Old 10-10-2012, 20:45   #56
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J word? Heck no. You are being most helpful and I appreciate it.

I've found over the years that GT has a high level of expertise in any area. Wanna know about sewing, I bet there are some people on GT who know all about it.

Ok, just how fragile are stainless steel barrels? Aren't some higher priced bolt all-weather hunting rifles made with them?

Also, why is stainless more accurate. Last time I shot benchrest competitions (20 years ago) I never noticed anyone using stainless. Of course, nobody was using AR's either
I must be clear, I am a fan of stainless-barreled ARs. But, I am not a benchrest shooter, and I will probably never shoot out a chrome-lined barrel or a stainless barrel. I am also not ex-military or tactically-knowledged. I shoot almost exclusively for fun.

Chrome lining is made by lining a barrel that is made slightly larger and the chrome fills in the extra space. While it may be a good process it is going to produce imperfections. The stainless barrels are made to spec. Some manufacturers (FN and Noveske, IIRC) use a double-thickness chrome lining. I have read many times that a Noveske chrome-lined barrel is very accurate, but I have never had experience with one.

Chrome moly barrels should be very accurate too. You could get a chrome moly barrel melonited for added durability and maintain accuracy. It seems to work for Glocks, but it is relatively new for AR15s, IIRC. I have no knowledge of how melonited barrels are holding up over the long term.

Stainless just seems to be the material used by the best barrel makers for AR15s, accuracy-wise. The military uses stainless for the 18" SPRs.

I have read of some stainless barrels showing impressive durability through torture testing. But the chrome-lined barrels are made specifically to provide added durability.

To provide any additional information about this topic would be unfair, this is the extent of my knowledge, I am a hobbyist, not an expert.

Last edited by avenues165; 10-10-2012 at 20:53.. Reason: Clarification
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Old 10-10-2012, 22:11   #57
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Every bit as good.
This.

Colt is great. BCM is great, and most of my experience is with them. Their gear is fantastic, CS is top-notch, shipping is lightning quick. IMO, one of the few companies(firearms or otherwise) that delivers above and beyond the price tag.

I am open-minded, and piddle around with gear from other companies from time to time. All it ever does is reinforce my conviction that BCM is dollar for dollar, the best thing going.

...

Jeez, I sound like such a fanboy dweeb.
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Old 10-13-2012, 18:20   #58
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I got to shoot an AR-15 M4 style and an AR-15 A2 style today.

Hated the M4. It had a red dot but wasn't very accurate at all (not as accurate as my Saiga). I won't say the brand as I don't want to crap talk any particular brand. Owner has tried a variety of ammo, and it just isn't better than 5" groups at 100 yards with any of them.

But aside from that, seems too small to me, don't like the tube feel of a collapsable stock tube. Don't like the short hand guard. Even started to burn my finger because I shoot with my hand far forward and it was touching the barrel.

But the A2 I loved. It was a Colt with a Bushmaster stainless 16" heavy barrel using the the full length A2 guard, full length sight radius, too, I believe. He said everything is exactly like the original just that the barrel is shorter. Supposedly Bushmaster made those barrels for the A2, not sure if that specific type fits the M4 (I don't know about this stuff). Fixed handle, and what I assume are the standard AR iron sights, rear peep, and front post in the middle of a front curving v type pair of blades. I found the blades help to center the front sight inside the peep. I shot 1" groups at 50 yards. A lot better, by far, than what I was able to do with the M4 and its red dot.

I don't want to get caught up in the accuracy differences. I just really liked the feel of the A2. A lot less recoil, better fit, even seemed a smoother action.

Yeah I know, it is just a sample of 2. But gives me some ideas of what I like and don't like between the configurations. Please keep in mind that these opinions are just based on my own range preferences. There are real world uses for these guns that could show me different priorities and purposes to consider.

Too bad the A2 was firmly "not for sale"

Oh, no jams
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:26   #59
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Awesome, glad you got to try some out. Best way to get a feel for what suits you BEFORE you blow a stack of cash, lol.

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Old 10-13-2012, 22:32   #60
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
I got to shoot an AR-15 M4 style and an AR-15 A2 style today.

Hated the M4. It had a red dot but wasn't very accurate at all (not as accurate as my Saiga). I won't say the brand as I don't want to crap talk any particular brand. Owner has tried a variety of ammo, and it just isn't better than 5" groups at 100 yards with any of them.

But aside from that, seems too small to me, don't like the tube feel of a collapsable stock tube. Don't like the short hand guard. Even started to burn my finger because I shoot with my hand far forward and it was touching the barrel.

But the A2 I loved. It was a Colt with a Bushmaster stainless 16" heavy barrel using the the full length A2 guard, full length sight radius, too, I believe. He said everything is exactly like the original just that the barrel is shorter. Supposedly Bushmaster made those barrels for the A2, not sure if that specific type fits the M4 (I don't know about this stuff). Fixed handle, and what I assume are the standard AR iron sights, rear peep, and front post in the middle of a front curving v type pair of blades. I found the blades help to center the front sight inside the peep. I shot 1" groups at 50 yards. A lot better, by far, than what I was able to do with the M4 and its red dot.

I don't want to get caught up in the accuracy differences. I just really liked the feel of the A2. A lot less recoil, better fit, even seemed a smoother action.

Yeah I know, it is just a sample of 2. But gives me some ideas of what I like and don't like between the configurations. Please keep in mind that these opinions are just based on my own range preferences. There are real world uses for these guns that could show me different priorities and purposes to consider.

Too bad the A2 was firmly "not for sale"

Oh, no jams
Bear in mind, the 16" with rifle length gas system is what is known as a "dissipator". Dissipators can have gas issues which will make them unreliable. However, several companies offer a "mock dissipator" which is a carbine or midlength gas system hidden under the rifle length handguard, with an A-frame front sight pinned in place in the normal rifle position. You get the handguard and sight radius of an M16 with the better function of a midlength or carbine gas system, all on a more compact 16" barrel.
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:47   #61
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You could put together an 18" SS barreled AR with a rifle-length gas system and a fixed A2 stock. There are some really nice 18" rifle length gas uppers out there. BCM makes some that I covet sooo much. A rifle length gas system should be a soft shooter, and even a mid weight profile would shoot very nice groups. BCM SS410 barreled uppers are known for shooting subMOA groups with the right trigger, optic, and ammo. They'll shoot both 5.56 and .223, they're well priced, and they're high quality.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:37   #62
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Bear in mind, the 16" with rifle length gas system is what is known as a "dissipator". Dissipators can have gas issues which will make them unreliable. However, several companies offer a "mock dissipator" which is a carbine or midlength gas system hidden under the rifle length handguard, with an A-frame front sight pinned in place in the normal rifle position. You get the handguard and sight radius of an M16 with the better function of a midlength or carbine gas system, all on a more compact 16" barrel.
Wow, I hadn't known that. Reliability is certainly something I want. What type of gas issues are dissipators known for?
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:44   #63
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Wow, I hadn't known that. Reliability is certainly something I want. What type of gas issues are dissipators known for?
Proximity of the gas port to the muzzle can lead to issues with the bolt unlocking too early (going from memory here, and I'm not fully awake yet, please forgive me if I'm wrong), which leads to extraction and feed issues. Some ran fine with a properly sized gas port and just the right carrier and buffer. Some were picky about ammo, and some ran like ass.

This is why someone came up with the mock dissipator - all the looks and advantages, but without the issues that comes with running a rifle gas system on a 16" barrel. On an 18-20" barrel, rifle gas systems should run just fine. It's only an issue on the 16" guns.
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Old 10-14-2012, 06:45   #64
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You could put together an 18" SS barreled AR with a rifle-length gas system and a fixed A2 stock. There are some really nice 18" rifle length gas uppers out there. BCM makes some that I covet sooo much. A rifle length gas system should be a soft shooter, and even a mid weight profile would shoot very nice groups. BCM SS410 barreled uppers are known for shooting subMOA groups with the right trigger, optic, and ammo. They'll shoot both 5.56 and .223, they're well priced, and they're high quality.
So an 18" will have the standard rifle gas system, just like a 20? Is that generally true, or just with some 18"? (edited: already answered by WoodenPlank).

At this point of my learning, I can envision a full length rifle setup, full handguard, full stock, fixed or detachable handle, 18" or 20" barrel.

A detachable handle and 18" barrel both make sense to me. So does a heavy stainless barrel if it is noted for accuracy.

Not sure on the twist yet.

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Old 10-14-2012, 06:54   #65
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So an 18" will have the standard rifle gas system, just like a 20? Is that generally true, or just with some 18"?

At this point of my learning, I can envision a full length rifle setup, full handguard, full stock, fixed or detachable handle, 18" or 20" barrel.

A detachable handle and 18" barrel both make sense to me. So does a heavy stainless barrel if it is noted for accuracy.

Not sure on the twist yet.
Most 18" barrels are drilled for rifle length gas systems, but I'm pretty sure I have seen midlength before, too. Either should serve you well.

Twist will be determined by what types of ammo you want to shoot. If you just plan to shoot cheap 55-62 grain ammo, then 1/9 is fine, but will limit how heavy you can go. 1/8 will allow for heavier bullets (up to ~80 grain), and 1/7 will allow for that and some of the extra long projectiles (M856 tacer, >80 grain). Some folks have been unsatisfied with the accuracy of 55 grain ammo from 1/7 barrels, but it's never been an issue for me.

Also, bear in mind that there are no absolutes - every barrel is different. Some 1/9 barrels will hold nice groups with 75-77 grain ammo, and some will group more like a load of buckshot.

In my opinion, a 1/8 twist is ideal for almost any application in an AR, short of a dedicated light varming gun slinging 40-50 grain bullets. It'll handle ~50-80 grain projectiles, 70 grain Barnes TSX, and should shoot most loads with acceptable to exceptional accuracy.
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Old 10-14-2012, 07:09   #66
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Most 18" barrels are drilled for rifle length gas systems, but I'm pretty sure I have seen midlength before, too. Either should serve you well.

Twist will be determined by what types of ammo you want to shoot. If you just plan to shoot cheap 55-62 grain ammo, then 1/9 is fine, but will limit how heavy you can go. 1/8 will allow for heavier bullets (up to ~80 grain), and 1/7 will allow for that and some of the extra long projectiles (M856 tacer, >80 grain). Some folks have been unsatisfied with the accuracy of 55 grain ammo from 1/7 barrels, but it's never been an issue for me.

Also, bear in mind that there are no absolutes - every barrel is different. Some 1/9 barrels will hold nice groups with 75-77 grain ammo, and some will group more like a load of buckshot.

In my opinion, a 1/8 twist is ideal for almost any application in an AR, short of a dedicated light varming gun slinging 40-50 grain bullets. It'll handle ~50-80 grain projectiles, 70 grain Barnes TSX, and should shoot most loads with acceptable to exceptional accuracy.
So, perhaps I should look for an 18" with 1/8" twist.

Where do you stand on the question of stainless vs not, and heavy vs not.

Again, keeping in mind that this mainly a range gun. Either my backyard range, and some varmits, or gunclub ranges and showing off my gun's accuracy

Probably not competitions, but maybe down the road if I think I'm doing well and have time on my hands, and if I want to learn more about rifle shooting.

Hone defense use too, but not buying it specifically for that purpose
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Old 10-14-2012, 08:35   #67
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So, perhaps I should look for an 18" with 1/8" twist.

Where do you stand on the question of stainless vs not, and heavy vs not.

Again, keeping in mind that this mainly a range gun. Either my backyard range, and some varmits, or gunclub ranges and showing off my gun's accuracy

Probably not competitions, but maybe down the road if I think I'm doing well and have time on my hands, and if I want to learn more about rifle shooting.

Hone defense use too, but not buying it specifically for that purpose
Unless it will only be shot from a bipod or rest on a bench, I would skip the bull barrel. A medium to heavy profile (better, heavy and fluted) barrel will be more than enough without adding a crazy amount of weight to the front of the gun.

If you plan to add an optic, skip the fixed front. While anything higher magnficiation than 3-4 will cause the front sight to blur out or disappear, I still don't like having a fixed sight in front of an optic.

Several companies offer good stainless barrels, and a few even offer chrome lined barrels that can rival many stainless barrels for accuracy. It all depends on budget. If cost isn't an issue(but you want to squeeze out as much accuracy as you can), I'd go with a Krieger stainless 18" in 1/7.7. For contours, I would give them a call and tell them what you are trying to do, and they can give you a solid suggestion.
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Old 10-14-2012, 09:54   #68
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Unless it will only be shot from a bipod or rest on a bench, I would skip the bull barrel. A medium to heavy profile (better, heavy and fluted) barrel will be more than enough without adding a crazy amount of weight to the front of the gun.

If you plan to add an optic, skip the fixed front. While anything higher magnficiation than 3-4 will cause the front sight to blur out or disappear, I still don't like having a fixed sight in front of an optic.

Several companies offer good stainless barrels, and a few even offer chrome lined barrels that can rival many stainless barrels for accuracy. It all depends on budget. If cost isn't an issue(but you want to squeeze out as much accuracy as you can), I'd go with a Krieger stainless 18" in 1/7.7. For contours, I would give them a call and tell them what you are trying to do, and they can give you a solid suggestion.
What is contours?

I've thought about that fixed front sight in front of a scope thing. No answer but did think about it.

I'm not much into buliding things, except with wood. I like a unit all put together with few spare parts to keep track of. So, I'll probably look for some company'scsetup that is off the shelf close to what I want. Just saying how I am.

What do you think of this Armalite? Seems it should be a light trigger. How does the two-stage work? Do you feel it as two movements, or just as one lighter movement? I'll have to look that up. 20" stainless barrel. Removable handle. 1/8" twist. Says it is available in AWB format, which I think means to be legal under the assualt weapon bs that sunset for you guys but NYS still has.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.asp...b-822e58014822

I don't see an 18".

As I think about this I'm leaning toward something that could either be used in CMP ( even though I've never shot that), or be iron sighted for fun from the bench, or be scoped and benched, or be a field plinker and varmit gun.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:28   #69
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What is contours?

I've thought about that fixed front sight in front of a scope thing. No answer but did think about it.

I'm not much into buliding things, except with wood. I like a unit all put together with few spare parts to keep track of. So, I'll probably look for some company'scsetup that is off the shelf close to what I want. Just saying how I am.

What do you think of this Armalite? Seems it should be a light trigger. How does the two-stage work? Do you feel it as two movements, or just as one lighter movement? I'll have to look that up. 20" stainless barrel. Removable handle. 1/8" twist. Says it is available in AWB format, which I think means to be legal under the assualt weapon bs that sunset for you guys but NYS still has.

http://www.armalite.com/ItemForm.asp...b-822e58014822

I don't see an 18".

As I think about this I'm leaning toward something that could either be used in CMP ( even though I've never shot that), or be iron sighted for fun from the bench, or be scoped and benched, or be a field plinker and varmit gun.
If you don't want to build it yourself, then I would highly suggest looking at Bravo Company's offerings in 18 and 20 inch varieties. They offer both stainless and chrome lined bores, and multiple options for handguards or rail systems. I don't remember offhand what they offer for ban states offhand, but if you call or email them, I am sure they will get back to you with an answer.

For triggers, look at Geissele. $180 and up, but probably the best AR-15 and AR-10 triggers in the world now.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:40   #70
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Similar to the Armalite, is this RockRiver, national match model that looks good, too. Any opinions on this compared to the Armalite, or to the BCM link earlier in the thread?

What other national match type guns to consider?

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.c...ategory_id=226
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:42   #71
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If you don't want to build it yourself, then I would highly suggest looking at Bravo Company's offerings in 18 and 20 inch varieties. They offer both stainless and chrome lined bores, and multiple options for handguards or rail systems. I don't remember offhand what they offer for ban states offhand, but if you call or email them, I am sure they will get back to you with an answer.

For triggers, look at Geissele. $180 and up, but probably the best AR-15 and AR-10 triggers in the world now.
Ok, I'II take a look. Didn't see prices at their website yet.
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Old 10-14-2012, 10:44   #72
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Ok, I'II take a look. Didn't see prices at their website yet.
Don't see them on the Geissele or BCM website?
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:01   #73
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Don't see them on the Geissele or BCM website?
The BCM rifle MSRP, on the BCM website. Don't know what Geissele is yet, a company that makes triggers?
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:03   #74
ithaca_deerslayer
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Here is what I assume is Bushmaster's version of a national match rifle
http://www.bushmaster.com/firearms/competition.asp
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Old 10-14-2012, 11:07   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
The BCM rifle MSRP, on the BCM website. Don't know what Geissele is yet, a company that makes triggers?
Bravo COmpany doesn't list prices for lowers or complete rifle, just uppers. You can easily buy a complete upper and complete lower, then slap them together.

As I mentioned earlier, Geissele probably make the best match and competition triggers for the AR platform out there right now.
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