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Old 10-10-2012, 10:42   #176
Geko45
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Originally Posted by TactiCool View Post
I appreciate you looking up that study for me, really I do. However the study is from 1992 and says nothing about the subsequent publications, so it does not conclusively correlate to the dramatic increases in autism cases that we see under the use of DSMIV and DSMIV-TR.
Alright, how about this. Should a truly autistic child be able to 'outgrow' the condition? It was my understanding that autism was incurable. The study below (2012) looked at children that were orignally given a diagnosis on the autism spectrum, but later no longer met the critieria for ASD. The study identified other factors that may have contributed to the change in diagnosis.

Quote:
OBJECTIVE: This study aimed to investigate descriptive characteristics and co-occurring neurodevelopmental and psychiatric conditions in young children, children, and adolescents with a current and consistent or past but not current (PBNC) diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder (ASD) and how such characteristics and conditions may engender a change in diagnosis of an ASD.

METHODS: Cross-sectional data of 1366 children with a parent-reported current or PBNC ASD diagnosis were obtained from the National Survey of Children’s Health 2007 data set across 3 developmental stages: young children (aged 3–5 years), children (aged 6–11 years), and adolescents (aged 12–17 years). Multinomial logistic regression was used to examine demographic characteristics and co-occurring conditions that differentiate the groups with a current ASD from groups with a PBNC ASD.

RESULTS: Results indicated the co-occurring conditions that distinguish groups currently diagnosed with an ASD from groups with a PBNC ASD diagnosis. In young children, current moderate/severe learning disability, and current moderate/severe developmental delay; in children, past speech problem, current moderate/severe anxiety, and past hearing problem; and in adolescents, current moderate/severe speech problem, current mild seizure/epilepsy, and past hearing problem.

CONCLUSIONS: These findings suggest that the presence of co-occurring psychiatric and neurodevelopmental conditions are associated with a change in ASD diagnosis. Questions remain as to whether changes in diagnosis of an ASD are due to true etiologic differences or shifts in diagnostic determination.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:52   #177
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Originally Posted by airmotive View Post
This message is hidden because airmotive is on your ignore list.

I'm sorry. Were you saying something?


I totally agree. Next we'll be talking about how we're all dying of mercury poisoning from our fillings.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:01   #178
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Originally Posted by airmotive View Post
Am I the only person who can see my posts?
Am I on everyone's ignore list? (probably a pretty decent chance on that one).
Sorry, I was caught up in my own little world... I must be autistic.

Quote:
Again....My wife, who is and has been a healthcare professional for 15 years, was just recently evaluated and found to be on the autism spectrum. (Asbergers) She has just become one of the numbers.

She has not changed in the last 39 years.
The definition of autism has changed.
Exactly, autism is treated as spectrum now and not a well defined condition. Almost anybody can be tested on the wrong day and score somewhere on the scale.
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Old 10-10-2012, 11:05   #179
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Exactly, autism is treated as spectrum now and not a well defined condition. Almost anybody can be tested on the wrong day and score somewhere on the scale.
I know more than one couple who have kids diagnosed as "autistic". Truth is they never discipline at all and their kids are little bad-asses. And yep, they give them medication for the "condition".

I wish they'd start prescribing medication to the dumbass parents instead of the kids.

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:22   #180
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Sorry, I was caught up in my own little world... I must be autistic.



Exactly, autism is treated as spectrum now and not a well defined condition. Almost anybody can be tested on the wrong day and score somewhere on the scale.
...and when we got back to the car I say, "See! I TOLD you you were retarded. NOW will you believe me?!?!"

Lucky for me, "a-hole" isn't on the autism spectrum.
(not yet, anyway)

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:33   #181
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Lucky for me, "a-hole" isn't on the autism spectrum.
I believe they call it arse-pergers...

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Old 10-10-2012, 11:42   #182
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We are told that vaccines create immunity -- and in spite of the lack of research done to prove efficacy I have no reason to doubt this. I do have a problem with the logic of trying to mandate vaccines for everyone though. If they create immunity for me, why should I care if you are vaccinated or not? If I'm immune to the disease you have, I shouldn't care.

That is the simple logic no one seems to get, why would vaccinated people/parents have any concern being around unvaccinated kids?

yet they passionately and with rage want YOU to stand in line with them.

mass populas mentality- while we all are consumed by "zombie apocalypse" scenarios....go figure
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:57   #183
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I have to agree. There are major childhood diseases that we should be vaccinating against.

Personally I don't think that chickenpox or other more minor diseases should necessarily be included, but there is no doubt or question in my mind that those listed are critical.
Chickenpox is NOT a minor disease. Chickenpox in childhood causes the virus to live in your body forever, causing shingles later in life. As many of my contemporary relatives can attest to, shingles at 60 is very debilitating, and can lead to permanent nerve problems.

A simple vaccination at an early age can stop MUCH suffering later.
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Old 10-10-2012, 13:14   #184
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Originally Posted by vrex View Post
That is the simple logic no one seems to get, why would vaccinated people/parents have any concern being around unvaccinated kids?

yet they passionately and with rage want YOU to stand in line with them.

mass populas mentality- while we all are consumed by "zombie apocalypse" scenarios....go figure
Because, as we speak, their is a resurgence of many of these diseases among the many unvaccinated, leading to higher insurance premiums for all of us. (There are even new cases of polio)

As much as you don't want your child vaccinated, you really don't want them to have polio or any of those other diseases, and the possibility increases with every unvaccinated person.
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Old 10-10-2012, 13:38   #185
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Originally Posted by TactiCool View Post
I appreciate you looking up that study for me, really I do. However the study is from 1992 and says nothing about the subsequent publications, so it does not conclusively correlate to the dramatic increases in autism cases that we see under the use of DSMIV and DSMIV-TR.

Really, I don't think DSMIII-R is culprit, since the drastic spike in autism occurred after the newer DSMIV was published in 1994.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html

http://www.americanchiropractic.net/...%20pf%20ed.pdf
In a psychobiology class, I was told that the DSM-IV significantly broadened the defining criteria for what constitutes autism over what was in the DSM-III. I've found the relevant text, but it's not really something I know how to interpret.

DSM-III:
Quote:
Diagnostic Criteria for Autistic Disorder

At least eight of the following sixteen items are present, these to include at least two items from A, one from B, and one from C.

A. Qualitative impairment in reciprocal social interaction (the examples within parentheses are arranged so that those first listed are more likely to apply to younger or more disabled, and the later ones, to older or less disabled) as manifested by the following:
1.Marked lack of awareness of the existence or feelings of others (for example, treats a person as if that person were a piece of furniture; does not notice another person's distress; apparently has no concept of the need of others for privacy);
2. No or abnormal seeking of comfort at times of distress (for example, does not come for comfort even when ill, hurt, or tired; seeks comfort in a stereotyped way, for example, says "cheese, cheese, cheese" whenever hurt);
3. No or impaired imitation (for example, does not wave bye-bye; does not copy parent's domestic activities; mechanical imitation of others' actions out of context);
4. No or abnormal social play (for example, does not actively participate in simple games; refers solitary play activities; involves other children in play only as mechanical aids); and
5. Gross impairment in ability to make peer friendships (for example, no interest in making peer friendships despite interest in making fiends, demonstrates lack of understanding of conventions of social interaction, for example, reads phone book to uninterested peer.

B. Qualitative impairment in verbal and nonverbal communication and in imaginative activity, (the numbered items are arranged so that those first listed are more likely to apply to younger or more disabled, and the later ones, to older or less disabled) as manifested by the following:
1. No mode of communication, such as: communicative babbling, facial expression, gesture, mime, or spoken language;
2. Markedly abnormal nonverbal communication, as in the use of eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, or gestures to initiate or modulate social interaction (for example, does not anticipate being held, stiffens when held, does not look at the person or smile when making a social approach, does not greet parents or visitors, has a fixed stare in social situations);
3. Absence of imaginative activity, such as play-acting of adult roles, fantasy character or animals; lack of interest in stories about imaginary events;
4. Marked abnormalities in the production of speech, including volume, pitch, stress, rate, rhythm, and intonation (for example, monotonous tone, question-like melody, or high pitch);
5. Marked abnormalities in the form or content of speech, including stereotyped and repetitive use of speech (for example, immediate echolalia or mechanical repetition of a television commercial); use of "you" when "I" is meant (for example, using "You want cookie?" to mean "I want a cookie"); idiosyncratic use of words or phrases (for example, "Go on green riding" to mean "I want to go on the swing"); or frequent irrelevant remarks (for example, starts talking about train schedules during a conversation about ports); and
6. Marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others, despite adequate speech (for example, indulging in lengthy monologues on one subject regardless of interjections from others);

C. Markedly restricted repertoire of activities and interests as manifested by the following:
1. Stereotyped body movements (for example, hand flicking or twisting, spinning, head-banging, complex whole-body movements);
2. Persistent preoccupation with parts of objects (for example, sniffing or smelling objects, repetitive feeling of texture of materials, spinning wheels of toy cars) or attachment to unusual objects (for example, insists on carrying around a piece of string);
3. Marked distress over changes in trivial aspects of environment (for example, when a vase is moved from usual position);
4. Unreasonable insistence on following routines in precise detail (for example, insisting that exactly the same route always be followed when shopping);
5. Markedly restricted range of interests and a preoccupation with one narrow interest, e.g., interested only in lining up objects, in amassing facts about meteorology, or in pretending to be a fantasy character.

D. Onset during infancy or early childhood
Specify if childhood onset (after 36 months of age)
DSM-IV:
Quote:
Diagnostic Criteria for Autistic Disorder

I. A total of six (or more) items from A., B., and C., with at least two from A., and one each from B. and C.
  • A. qualitative impairment in social interaction, as manifested by at least two of the following:
    • 1. marked impairments in the use of multiple nonverbal behaviors such as eye-to-eye gaze, facial expression, body posture, and gestures to regulate social interaction
      2. failure to develop peer relationships appropriate to developmental level
      3. a lack of spontaneous seeking to share enjoyment, interests, or achievements with other people, (e.g., by a lack of showing, bringing, or pointing out objects of interest to other people)
      4. lack of social or emotional reciprocity ( note: in the description, it gives the following as examples: not actively participating in simple social play or games, preferring solitary activities, or involving others in activities only as tools or "mechanical" aids )
    B. qualitative impairments in communication as manifested by at least one of the following:
    • 1. delay in, or total lack of, the development of spoken language (not accompanied by an attempt to compensate through alternative modes of communication such as gesture or mime)
      2. in individuals with adequate speech, marked impairment in the ability to initiate or sustain a conversation with others
      3. stereotyped and repetitive use of language or idiosyncratic language
      4. lack of varied, spontaneous make-believe play or social imitative play appropriate to developmental level
    C. restricted repetitive and stereotyped patterns of behavior, interests and activities, as manifested by at least two of the following:
    • 1. encompassing preoccupation with one or more stereotyped and restricted patterns of interest that is abnormal either in intensity or focus
      2. apparently inflexible adherence to specific, nonfunctional routines or rituals
      3. stereotyped and repetitive motor mannerisms (e.g hand or finger flapping or twisting, or complex whole-body movements)
      4. persistent preoccupation with parts of objects
I. Delays or abnormal functioning in at least one of the following areas, with onset prior to age 3 years:
  • A. social interaction
    B. language as used in social communication
    C. symbolic or imaginative play
III. The disturbance is not better accounted for by Rett's Disorder or Childhood Disintegrative Disorder
DSM-I and DSM-II hardly mentioned autism at all.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:19   #186
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Alright, how about this. Should a truly autistic child be able to 'outgrow' the condition? It was my understanding that autism was incurable. The study below (2012) looked at children that were orignally given a diagnosis on the autism spectrum, but later no longer met the critieria for ASD. The study identified other factors that may have contributed to the change in diagnosis.
As you said, there certainly will be some measurable error, but I think the answers to these questions regarding the past and current DSM's will be when the new DSMV is released in the middle of next year. This new publication will have a much stricter criteria for the diagnosis, even to the point that it is criticized by some for being so restrictive.

So, it should be interesting in the coming years to see how this will affect the levels of diagnosis.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/.../fulltext.html

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Old 10-10-2012, 14:23   #187
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There has been for quite some time now evidence pointing to autism being induced by vaccinations. Many articles can be found on this, here is just one http://www.naturalnews.com/027178_autism_vaccines.html

Also what better way to keep the populace needing the drugs the major pharmaceutical companies cash in on than to infect the very people who will be needing them? They load up our children with all sorts of bad stuff via forced vaccinations and all. I'm not saying all of it is bad, but how do you know that they aren't sneaking things into the vaccine that they won't tell you about?
Yeah, an article from a web site with an agenda.

They push thimerosal as the cause, but there are two problems;

1) It hasn't been in most vaccines for over 10 years, yet autism is up.

2) Thimerosal doesn't contain the "bad" mercury compound. There is a vast difference between ethyl and methyl mercury when it comes to toxicity and bio effects.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:29   #188
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That is the simple logic no one seems to get, why would vaccinated people/parents have any concern being around unvaccinated kids?

yet they passionately and with rage want YOU to stand in line with them.
There are some good reasons:

1. Vaccines are not 100% effective, and with each unvaccinated person, the risk of transmission increases. In other words, the fact that people choose not to get vaccinated increases the risk of disease for both the unvaccinated and those for which the vaccine was ineffective.

2. People who choose not to get common vaccines are essentially freeloaders. Vaccines have a risk and benefit. People that get vaccines choose to accept the risk in return for the benefit. People who choose not to accept the risk still largely receive the benefit based on the risk accepted by the vaccinated via herd immunity. Add to that the fact that the unvaccinated increase the risk of disease. See 1.

I'm not saying it's right, but there are perfectly rational reasons for people to insist on mandatory vaccinations.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:35   #189
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Because, as we speak, their is a resurgence of many of these diseases among the many unvaccinated, leading to higher insurance premiums for all of us. (There are even new cases of polio)

As much as you don't want your child vaccinated, you really don't want them to have polio or any of those other diseases, and the possibility increases with every unvaccinated person.
Achieving great strength always comes at a risk...I doubt those stats are from places where households proper nutrition and a healthy lifestyle are practiced.

None of what you are saying even compares to illnesses that there IS no real vaccination for sir.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:40   #190
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There are some good reasons:

1. Vaccines are not 100% effective, and with each unvaccinated person, the risk of transmission increases. In other words, the fact that people choose not to get vaccinated increases the risk of disease for both the unvaccinated and those for which the vaccine was ineffective.

2. People who choose not to get common vaccines are essentially freeloaders. Vaccines have a risk and benefit. People that get vaccines choose to accept the risk in return for the benefit. People who choose not to accept the risk still largely receive the benefit based on the risk accepted by the vaccinated via herd immunity. Add to that the fact that the unvaccinated increase the risk of disease. See 1.

I'm not saying it's right, but there are perfectly rational reasons for people to insist on mandatory vaccinations.

my answers to your points:

1. Exactly, then DON'T do it or modify the schedule to allow the body to recover between shots.

2. People getting the vaccines accept nothing. They are sheep being led to the abbatoir, listening to some stupid half retarded "doctor" who makes money every time he sticks a needle into your healthy kid.

Vaccines were and are an idea with its heart in the right place, but like everything we have perverted it and now it is totally out of control.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:03   #191
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I'm a doctor...and my kids all got their flu shots this morning. When you've seen people die from preventable things like the flu, you make sure to get vaccinated. I realize that they're not a panacea, but I've NEVER seen a case of measles, mumps, rubella, polio or smallpox. So that should say somethings. We are seeing some of these diseases resurface because of the large numbers of unvaccinated illegal immigrants here, and I guarantee you that it makes me nervous to see these diseases again (I've havent seen them yet, but I've gotten some emails from colleagues that are seeing them in the southeast). Vaccinate your kids..

PS- autism is largely (not solely) kids that just need their butts kicked...there I said it.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:26   #192
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my answers to your points:

1. Exactly, then DON'T do it or modify the schedule to allow the body to recover between shots.

2. People getting the vaccines accept nothing. They are sheep being led to the abbatoir, listening to some stupid half retarded "doctor" who makes money every time he sticks a needle into your healthy kid.

Vaccines were and are an idea with its heart in the right place, but like everything we have perverted it and now it is totally out of control.
1. I'm not sure how not vaccinating anyone, i.e., "DON'T do it," is a rational response unless you simply don't believe in the efficacy of vaccinations for whatever reason.

2. There are, of course, many people that get vaccinations because that's what's recommended with nary a thought to risk. But everyone who gets vaccinated assumes a risk, and people that don't get vaccinated benefit from that whether they want to or not. And I'm sorry, but putting doctor in scare quotes and suggesting that people getting vaccinated are being led to the slaughter is ridiculous.

I think we can at least agree that we'd all be better off if people took a vested interest in their health and researched treatments recommended (or not) by caregivers.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:40   #193
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There has been for quite some time now evidence pointing to autism being induced by vaccinations. Many articles can be found on this, here is just one http://www.naturalnews.com/027178_autism_vaccines.html

Also what better way to keep the populace needing the drugs the major pharmaceutical companies cash in on than to infect the very people who will be needing them? They load up our children with all sorts of bad stuff via forced vaccinations and all. I'm not saying all of it is bad, but how do you know that they aren't sneaking things into the vaccine that they won't tell you about?
Haha, naturalnews.com. Your credibility goes down the drain when you try to pass off these sorts of websites as your research. Worse, you actually form an opinion based on these sorts of websites. Point is, I have never seen a peer reviewed study in a scientific journal that showed a link (that wasn't retracted). You post is full of irrational paranoia, as evidence by your last paragraph. Its always easier to believe in a conspiracy theory than to do actual research.

Edit: I also did not see any sources sited in your link. Just because some jackwagon writes something on the internet, does not mean that you should blindly accept it. Some measure of common sense is always required.

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Old 10-10-2012, 15:59   #194
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Im not saying all of them are bad but the last time I took one of my kids in for a shot the nurse gave me a flyer to read about the vaccine no I dont remember which one it was but there was enough of a problem that there was already hotline and lawyers set up to deal with problems with adverse reactions including death. The nurse didnt let me read all of it before she gave the shot and it among other things made me very leary of medical "professionals"

We vacinate our kids but not on thier schedual putting that many toxins I thier little bodies all at one time and hoping they dont have a reaction and hoping the medical community can figure out which suspension or vaccine a kid is having a reaction to is assinine
Our job as parents is to protect our kids so if I piss off the holy m.d. or a nurse by making them try to find a one vaccine shot or not letting them pump ten different toxins in my kids at one time oh well.
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:54   #195
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Achieving great strength always comes at a risk...I doubt those stats are from places where households proper nutrition and a healthy lifestyle are practiced.

None of what you are saying even compares to illnesses that there IS no real vaccination for sir.
Drug-resistant tuberculosis increasing among U.S. immigrant populations.

Should we require people to get vaccinated against tuberculosis?
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:07   #196
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I'm a doctor...and my kids all got their flu shots this morning. When you've seen people die from preventable things like the flu, you make sure to get vaccinated. I realize that they're not a panacea, but I've NEVER seen a case of measles, mumps, rubella, polio or smallpox. So that should say somethings. We are seeing some of these diseases resurface because of the large numbers of unvaccinated illegal immigrants here, and I guarantee you that it makes me nervous to see these diseases again (I've havent seen them yet, but I've gotten some emails from colleagues that are seeing them in the southeast). Vaccinate your kids..

PS- autism is largely (not solely) kids that just need their butts kicked...there I said it.
Quoted as to not get missed.
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Old 10-10-2012, 21:21   #197
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Drug-resistant tuberculosis increasing among U.S. immigrant populations.

Should we require people to get vaccinated against tuberculosis?
There isn't a truly effective vaccine against TB. BCG is not very effective, and most if not all immigrants from 3rd world countries already have the vaccine. I was vaccinated when I was very young in Ukraine. There is no use of BCG in the US as far as I know, and I believe it's due to it's lack of efficacy.
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Old 10-10-2012, 23:12   #198
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Originally Posted by Hrsuhd View Post
Im not saying all of them are bad but the last time I took one of my kids in for a shot the nurse gave me a flyer to read about the vaccine no I dont remember which one it was but there was enough of a problem that there was already hotline and lawyers set up to deal with problems with adverse reactions including death. The nurse didnt let me read all of it before she gave the shot and it among other things made me very leary of medical "professionals"

We vacinate our kids but not on thier schedual putting that many toxins I thier little bodies all at one time and hoping they dont have a reaction and hoping the medical community can figure out which suspension or vaccine a kid is having a reaction to is assinine
Our job as parents is to protect our kids so if I piss off the holy m.d. or a nurse by making them try to find a one vaccine shot or not letting them pump ten different toxins in my kids at one time oh well.
The problem is that there is no "one vaccine shot" that covers everything. Many vaccines are a combination, such as MMR, and many are single vaccines. Or did you perhaps think that vaccines are cooked up in the doctor's office? The schedule is designed in such a way to ensure a proper immune response, and has been ascertained from probably decades of research. And it also clearly works, with an extremely low risk. It's cute that you think that you know better than the medical community, but by trying to flex your "knowledge" in front of your doc or nurse, all you are doing is making yourself look dumb. It's obviously appropriate for you to do what's best for your kids, but the problem lies in the fact that you are not doing what's best for your kids, rather you are doing what you think is best. That's a huge distinction, especially when you happen to be wrong. There is nothing wrong with following the advice of someone who actually knows something better than you do, and actually has a stake in your kids' well-being. It's interesting how people will come to this forum to ask advice on irrelevant things such as when to change the oil in your car, but at the same time will eschew the advice of a physician regarding the health of their loved ones, who spent the better part of a decade in medical school/residency, and is backed up by decades of peer-reviewed research. And they do it based on a 5 min google search article, written by some jackwagon without a medical or research degree, and backed up by no peer-reviewed sources. I read the natural news article someone linked to previously. It listed no sources, but would say "a study found this," "some scientists found this," or "a doctor said that." Clearly credible . This kind of stupidity is mind-boggling to say the least.

Last edited by sputnik767; 10-10-2012 at 23:20..
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Old 10-10-2012, 23:46   #199
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Originally Posted by vrex View Post
my answers to your points:

1. Exactly, then DON'T do it or modify the schedule to allow the body to recover between shots.

2. People getting the vaccines accept nothing. They are sheep being led to the abbatoir, listening to some stupid half retarded "doctor" who makes money every time he sticks a needle into your healthy kid.

Vaccines were and are an idea with its heart in the right place, but like everything we have perverted it and now it is totally out of control.
Please elaborate on #1. Exactly what recovery are you speaking about that is needed "between shots"? How long is this recovery and what biochemical processes need to occur? Which vx require how much "recovery"?
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Old 10-10-2012, 23:48   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrsuhd View Post
Im not saying all of them are bad but the last time I took one of my kids in for a shot the nurse gave me a flyer to read about the vaccine no I dont remember which one it was but there was enough of a problem that there was already hotline and lawyers set up to deal with problems with adverse reactions including death. The nurse didnt let me read all of it before she gave the shot and it among other things made me very leary of medical "professionals"

We vacinate our kids but not on thier schedual putting that many toxins I thier little bodies all at one time and hoping they dont have a reaction and hoping the medical community can figure out which suspension or vaccine a kid is having a reaction to is assinine
Our job as parents is to protect our kids so if I piss off the holy m.d. or a nurse by making them try to find a one vaccine shot or not letting them pump ten different toxins in my kids at one time oh well.
You really haven't got the slightest flipping idea what you are talking about. You have formulated your own opinions based on nothing.
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