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Old 10-10-2012, 07:39   #41
molar
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Originally Posted by JBS View Post
Molar, if I may ask what ejector is currently installed in your pistol?
30274

With the 336 it was horrible. BTF every 3 or 4 rounds and a stovepipe every couple of mags.

Now, I'll get a stovepipe every couple hundred rounds. Still unacceptable
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:44   #42
dhgeyer
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Originally Posted by Southwind View Post
Have you looked at a non-LCI extractor? Sounds like that's what you're going to make.
Yes, that is pretty much what I'm going to make. If I had one, or knew where to get one, of course I would try that. All the people who have posted good results with that have taken them from older guns they already had. If I could just go out and buy one I would. Do you know of a source? Can I still buy a Gen 2 extractor somewhere and just drop it in? If so, that would certainly be worth a try.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:49   #43
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FWIW, the Apex extractor did not solve my ejection problems, so I think more than extractor geometry and lack of extractor tension are at play, at least on my gun
Are you using the Apex extractor right now? Or are you planning to experiment with stock ones?

If you're done with the Apex extractor and spring set, I will buy it from you happily. It might not help, but I'm in experiment mode.
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Old 10-10-2012, 07:54   #44
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Yes, that is pretty much what I'm going to make. If I had one, or knew where to get one, of course I would try that. All the people who have posted good results with that have taken them from older guns they already had. If I could just go out and buy one I would. Do you know of a source? Can I still buy a Gen 2 extractor somewhere and just drop it in? If so, that would certainly be worth a try.
I found mine on Ebay but I noticed later that Midway has them. I got the SLB from Midway
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Old 10-10-2012, 08:29   #45
molar
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Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
Are you using the Apex extractor right now? Or are you planning to experiment with stock ones?

If you're done with the Apex extractor and spring set, I will buy it from you happily. It might not help, but I'm in experiment mode.
Friday I'm going to the range. I will try the Apex with non-lci spring loaded bearing as I believe it will put more tension on the extractor. I will also try the non lci cast extractor and SLB from my Gen 2.5 26, the non-dip LCI from my perfect Gen 3 17, a non lci extractor from a Gen 2 22, and the stock extractor I'm going to modify by taking some off the pad.

I also plan on taking all the internals out of my problematic Gen 3 19 slide and putting them in the 17 slide. If the 17 then runs perfect as I expect it will, I'll know for sure I have an out of spec slide on the 19.

If none of that works, I'll call it a loss and ditch the gun. I'm not about to spend $200 bucks for a new slide. If it comes to that, I'll gladly sell you the Apex extractor.
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Old 10-10-2012, 10:49   #46
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I found mine on Ebay but I noticed later that Midway has them. I got the SLB from Midway
Thank you! I will keep that in mind.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:36   #47
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Success! But not the way I expected. The Fedex truck showed up this AM with, among other things, 2 new non-dipped extractors from Glock. I took one to the shop and did my best to imitate an old non-LCI type extractor. Took out the claw angle, cut the pad that spaces it to the frame more than I intended. I also made a Spring Loaded Bearing (SLB) with a much longer "head" to really tension the already 20% extra power White Sound Defense extractor depressor plunger spring (EDPS). I used my homemade extractor depressor plunger (EDP) (see pics above).

Well, got to the range and it didn't work. Gun didn't jam, but it still sent low power loads into my face.

Luckily I had brought the other new non-dip extractor with me. I installed that with my homemade EDP, the White Sound EDPS, and the SLB I had originally made with only a slightly longer "head" - probably about like a non-LCI SLB. This combination works perfectly! I put around a hundred rounds of everything from WWB to +P hollow points and it all went out up and to the right in a relatively normal pattern.

Now - hold your breath: I tried the "1911" test. Didn't think that would ever work. BUT IT DID!!!! About 20 times in a row!

Looking closely at the new non-dip extractor (NDE), I notice that a couple of things are different. The claw is a little closer to the breechface (are you listening MOLAR?). I haven't taken a measurement, but I could swear looking at them stacked up that the extractor itself is a bit longer at the back, which would put a little more tension on it.

It looks like Glock may finally have stepped up to the plate on this one. But, before I get too excited I guess I should wait and see how everyone else makes out with the new NDE. Just because it works in my gun doesn't mean it will work in everyone's. I also should try it with all stock parts in the tensioning channel. Right now none of them are.

I have lost interest in the Apex extractor. I hope Apex doesn't take a bath after all the development effort they put into their extractor. But it is clear to me that I don't need it. It is also clear to me that I was wrong in believing that the 17 degree angle on the claw was the major contributing problem.

So, I have a new theory about why some guns are developing problems after 800, 1000, or 2000 rounds. Maybe the extractor parts (extractor, EDP, EDPS, and SLB) are wearing out. Maybe they all, or some of them, need to be replaced periodically as routine maintenance.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:39   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
Success! But not the way I expected. The Fedex truck showed up this AM with, among other things, 2 new non-dipped extractors from Glock. I took one to the shop and did my best to imitate an old non-LCI type extractor. Took out the claw angle, cut the pad that spaces it to the frame more than I intended. I also made a Spring Loaded Bearing (SLB) with a much longer "head" to really tension the already 20% extra power White Sound Defense extractor depressor plunger spring (EDPS). I used my homemade extractor depressor plunger (EDP) (see pics above).

Well, got to the range and it didn't work. Gun didn't jam, but it still sent low power loads into my face.

Luckily I had brought the other new non-dip extractor with me. I installed that with my homemade EDP, the White Sound EDPS, and the SLB I had originally made with only a slightly longer "head" - probably about like a non-LCI SLB. This combination works perfectly! I put around a hundred rounds of everything from WWB to +P hollow points and it all went out up and to the right in a relatively normal pattern.

Now - hold your breath: I tried the "1911" test. Didn't think that would ever work. BUT IT DID!!!! About 20 times in a row!

Looking closely at the new non-dip extractor (NDE), I notice that a couple of things are different. The claw is a little closer to the breechface (are you listening MOLAR?). I haven't taken a measurement, but I could swear looking at them stacked up that the extractor itself is a bit longer at the back, which would put a little more tension on it.

It looks like Glock may finally have stepped up to the plate on this one. But, before I get too excited I guess I should wait and see how everyone else makes out with the new NDE. Just because it works in my gun doesn't mean it will work in everyone's. I also should try it with all stock parts in the tensioning channel. Right now none of them are.

I have lost interest in the Apex extractor. I hope Apex doesn't take a bath after all the development effort they put into their extractor. But it is clear to me that I don't need it. It is also clear to me that I was wrong in believing that the 17 degree angle on the claw was the major contributing problem.

So, I have a new theory about why some guns are developing problems after 800, 1000, or 2000 rounds. Maybe the extractor parts (extractor, EDP, EDPS, and SLB) are wearing out. Maybe they all, or some of them, need to be replaced periodically as routine maintenance.
Congrats, but the Fedex guy brought me a "dipped" extractor from Glock, I must not have been on the VIP list, lol.
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Old 10-10-2012, 14:59   #49
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Well do a bunch of measuring tonight and post results,,, and congratulations on your work.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:07   #50
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Congrats, but the Fedex guy brought me a "dipped" extractor from Glock, I must not have been on the VIP list, lol.
I called Glockparts.com LLC out in Bailey CO. Someone here told me that he had the new ones. It's in a thread somewhere. Anyway, when I called him I told him specifically not to send dipped extractors. He agreed. Told me he had just gotten a shipment in and, while he hadn't opened them, he assumed they would be the new style. Hope this helps.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:12   #51
molar
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Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
Success! But not the way I expected. The Fedex truck showed up this AM with, among other things, 2 new non-dipped extractors from Glock. I took one to the shop and did my best to imitate an old non-LCI type extractor. Took out the claw angle, cut the pad that spaces it to the frame more than I intended. I also made a Spring Loaded Bearing (SLB) with a much longer "head" to really tension the already 20% extra power White Sound Defense extractor depressor plunger spring (EDPS). I used my homemade extractor depressor plunger (EDP) (see pics above).

Well, got to the range and it didn't work. Gun didn't jam, but it still sent low power loads into my face.

Luckily I had brought the other new non-dip extractor with me. I installed that with my homemade EDP, the White Sound EDPS, and the SLB I had originally made with only a slightly longer "head" - probably about like a non-LCI SLB. This combination works perfectly! I put around a hundred rounds of everything from WWB to +P hollow points and it all went out up and to the right in a relatively normal pattern.

Now - hold your breath: I tried the "1911" test. Didn't think that would ever work. BUT IT DID!!!! About 20 times in a row!

Looking closely at the new non-dip extractor (NDE), I notice that a couple of things are different. The claw is a little closer to the breechface (are you listening MOLAR?). I haven't taken a measurement, but I could swear looking at them stacked up that the extractor itself is a bit longer at the back, which would put a little more tension on it.

It looks like Glock may finally have stepped up to the plate on this one. But, before I get too excited I guess I should wait and see how everyone else makes out with the new NDE. Just because it works in my gun doesn't mean it will work in everyone's. I also should try it with all stock parts in the tensioning channel. Right now none of them are.

I have lost interest in the Apex extractor. I hope Apex doesn't take a bath after all the development effort they put into their extractor. But it is clear to me that I don't need it. It is also clear to me that I was wrong in believing that the 17 degree angle on the claw was the major contributing problem.

So, I have a new theory about why some guns are developing problems after 800, 1000, or 2000 rounds. Maybe the extractor parts (extractor, EDP, EDPS, and SLB) are wearing out. Maybe they all, or some of them, need to be replaced periodically as routine maintenance.
I'm listening. I'm gonna have to order a new non-dip lci extractor if none of my other combos work.

Funny you mention extractor parts wearing out. Last night while I had my 3 9mm glocks stripped, I noticed that the EDP assembly was a few mm shorter in my 19 than my 17. The spring was compressed more, resulting in shorter overall length. Now, the interesting part is that my 19 only has 500 rounds through it, while the 17 has several thousand. I wonder if Glock got ahold of some incorrectly manufactured or weak EDP springs? This would not explain why most of the problems occur in the 19, though, as the EDP springs are standard across all models. It may be a contributing factor to those who experience BTF after several rounds, though.
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Old 10-10-2012, 15:15   #52
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Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
I called Glockparts.com LLC out in Bailey CO. Someone here told me that he had the new ones. It's in a thread somewhere. Anyway, when I called him I told him specifically not to send dipped extractors. He agreed. Told me he had just gotten a shipment in and, while he hadn't opened them, he assumed they would be the new style. Hope this helps.
I placed my order with them today thanks, I found the info in a thread over on M4C.

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Old 10-10-2012, 19:25   #53
molar
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I just put calipers on the SLB's from my 19 and 17. The 19's SLB was shorter, but not by as much as I figured. It was 0.015" shorter. I have noticed that it is much easier to take the slide plate of the 19 than my 17 or 26. There can't be much extractor tension at all.
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Old 10-11-2012, 06:51   #54
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I just put calipers on the SLB's from my 19 and 17. The 19's SLB was shorter, but not by as much as I figured. It was 0.015" shorter. I have noticed that it is much easier to take the slide plate of the 19 than my 17 or 26. There can't be much extractor tension at all.
That was one of the first things I noticed when I first got my first Gen 4 19 (the one I finally gave up on), and the one I have now. I compared the extractor tension by just pushing it outward with my finger. I did this side by side with my CZ85 Combat, S&W M&P FS 9mm, and my Kahr CW9. The Glock's extractor tension is very weak. That is why the first thing I did was to make an SLB with longer "head" to compress the spring more. Then the stronger spring and my SLB.

The EDP is designed to contact and mate with the SLB, which limits the outward travel of the extractor. I still can't figure out if this "feature" is intended as an integral part of how the extractor is supposed to work. If it is, then it is one easy explanation as to why the guns start to fail after a while. The end of the SLB takes a beating and gets deformed fairly quickly.
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Old 10-11-2012, 12:28   #55
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Seems to this impartial observer like this rises to the level of a candidate for sticky.. Would you guys consider additional photographs illustrating the differences in parts and damage?
And Fire_Medic, where did you find that thread? I can't locate it. Thanks
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Old 10-11-2012, 16:12   #56
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FWIW: Gen 4 19, maybe 1 or 2% weak ejections, landing on my arm, but none to face. Has dipped extractor. Bought a Lone Wolf extractor (only) and was getting BTF so often the gun was unuseable. Back to the stock dipped extractor. SN #SFDXXX.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:24   #57
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... Here are some rough measurements of the force required to knock the casing loose from the extractor when the casing is just before contacting the ejector.

Stock extractor, stock SLB: 55 grams
Old nonLCI extractor, nonLCI SLB: 185 grams.

Some intermediate numbers:
Stock extractor, nonLCI SLB: 90 grams
nonLCI extractor, stock SLB: 135 grams

...
I thought reopening this thread would be as good a place as any for this observation. Randy Lee has posted instructions for fitting the Gen 3 G19 Apex extractor if necessary. In that post he says that the holding force should be 3.5 to 4 pounds which is 1500 plus grams, nearly 10 times what I got with the old extractor. As best I can tell from his picture, we are measuring the same thing. Wow!

Note that the gen 3 extractor has a nub added at the bottom of the claw to stop the downward travel of the spent brass so it isn't relying on the spring pressure alone to hold it in position. Looks to me like a really great solution.

The post I'm referring to is here:
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/ind...-g-fre-fitting
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Old 11-29-2012, 12:27   #58
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This link should work a bit better:
http://www.apextactical.com/blog/ind...g-fre-fitting/

Perhaps a little nub of epoxy would allow enough proof-of-concept testing (firing) with a specific problematic gun before committing to purchase of the Apex part.

Last edited by bentbiker; 11-29-2012 at 12:39..
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Old 11-29-2012, 14:34   #59
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Thanks for the fix.
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