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Old 10-09-2012, 06:03   #41
ithaca_deerslayer
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Avenues, do you think most run of the mill 1 in 7" barrels will handle 55gr ok? Or just the particlar stainless ones you mention?

I don't want to be stuck on trying to match the load and accuracy my bolt shoots, but just thought it would be nice
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:21   #42
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Avenues, do you think most run of the mill 1 in 7" barrels will handle 55gr ok? Or just the particlar stainless ones you mention?

I don't want to be stuck on trying to match the load and accuracy my bolt shoots, but just thought it would be nice
In theory a 1:7 twist should be fine for 55gr bullets.

I suggest you do some research. In other forums there have been tests performed on 1:7 and 1:9 barrels side by side with 55gr loads. I think you would be fine with a 1:7 from a quality manufacturer to shoot 55gr bullets. But don't take it from me, check out some side by side testing to see what you think. There are resources that can tell you the optimum bullet weights with each twist. Some folks swear that 1:7 will not be optimal for 55gr bullets.

FWIW, I am going to be purchasing a 16" recon-style upper with an SS barrel once funds are available. I know I will be shooting from ~50grs to ~77grs through it. I will be using either a 1:7 or 1:8 twist.
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:32   #43
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
Avenues, do you think most run of the mill 1 in 7" barrels will handle 55gr ok? Or just the particlar stainless ones you mention?

I don't want to be stuck on trying to match the load and accuracy my bolt shoots, but just thought it would be nice
In MY experience, every 1/7 barrel I have had has given between acceptable (2-3 MOA) and fantastic (1.5 or less MOA) accuracy from 16" or less barrels out to 100 yards. A lot of this, of course, depends on individual shooter and optic being used, as well as individual barrels. In most cases, you won't be sure of what YOUR barrel will do until you go out and try it.
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:45   #44
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http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/BCM-M...ifle-s/146.htm
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Old 10-09-2012, 20:55   #45
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:01   #46
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:40   #47
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I suggest you do some research.

I thought this thread was my research

Eventually, l'll get a couple guys I know to crack open their safes and let me dirty up their guns. After hunting season. So it will probably be a mid-winter test drive of what they've.

We'll see if my want of an AR lasts till then.
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Old 10-10-2012, 05:43   #48
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You suppose that is a 20" barrel, fixed front sight, 1 in 9" twist? How much does it cost generally?

That configuration, old school, but with detachable handle, is catching my imagination.
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Old 10-10-2012, 06:28   #49
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You suppose that is a 20" barrel, fixed front sight, 1 in 9" twist? How much does it cost generally?

That configuration, old school, but with detachable handle, is catching my imagination.
I though you might like that.


That is a 20", in a 1/7 twist. It should run your lighter quality ammo just fine out to 200yds. For distances past that, load it up with some heavier BTHPs, and it aughta be a tack-driver.

Don't know what the price is, you'd have to contact BCM. But I'd imagine that set-up will probably fall in around $1,200.

..
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Old 10-10-2012, 12:02   #50
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If your budget is to $1500, my choice would be Daniel defense M4. They have excellent QC. Completely mil-spec, and then some. Cold hammer forged barrels, and free float rails that are among the best available, IMO. Basically with the DD youre getting all the bells and whistles that you would have to buy aftermarket if you went with the Colt. Not dissing the Colt at all, it is an EXCELLENT weapon, but you're gonna want to put a rail on it, and other stuff. So I say just go with the DD and call it a day!
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Old 10-10-2012, 16:56   #51
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I though you might like that.


That is a 20", in a 1/7 twist. It should run your lighter quality ammo just fine out to 200yds. For distances past that, load it up with some heavier BTHPs, and it aughta be a tack-driver.

Don't know what the price is, you'd have to contact BCM. But I'd imagine that set-up will probably fall in around $1,200.

..
Hmm, now you've got my attention

Wonder how the quality compares to Colt.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:04   #52
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Hmm, now you've got my attention

Wonder how the quality compares to Colt.
Every bit as good.
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Old 10-10-2012, 17:05   #53
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If your budget is to $1500, my choice would be Daniel defense M4. They have excellent QC. Completely mil-spec, and then some. Cold hammer forged barrels, and free float rails that are among the best available, IMO. Basically with the DD youre getting all the bells and whistles that you would have to buy aftermarket if you went with the Colt. Not dissing the Colt at all, it is an EXCELLENT weapon, but you're gonna want to put a rail on it, and other stuff. So I say just go with the DD and call it a day!
Was just talking to soneone today who pretty much said the same thing about DD.

He also mentioned that NYS post-ban only allows fixed stocks. (Not sure how that relates to shotguns, I'll look the law up later, might only pertain to pistol grips).

Evidentally all the M4 looking guns in NYS stores only look like they have adjustable stocks, but are welded or glued or something, so can't be adjusted. But I assume stocks on AR's can be replaced to a different size (as long as still not adjustable).

Knowing all that makes me lean more toward the old fashioned A2 type stock.
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:41   #54
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
I thought this thread was my research

Eventually, l'll get a couple guys I know to crack open their safes and let me dirty up their guns. After hunting season. So it will probably be a mid-winter test drive of what they've.

We'll see if my want of an AR lasts till then.
I really wasn't trying to be a jerk.

I personally feel weird about telling someone they'll be GTG with something when there is debate about it. I think you'll be fine with a 1:7 twist, and experience tells me you'll be fine. A 1:7 will let you shoot the heavier bullets for longer range.

It's a trade off, chrome lined is more durable, stainless steel is more accurate. If you are OK with around 2 MOA a chrome-lined is fine. If you want better, stainless will get you there.

For $1,682.00 you can get a Larue Tactical PredatAR in 16" or 18". A light weight rifle that will get you great accuracy. It has a 1:8 twist stainless barrel with a Geissele 2 stage trigger. They are really cool rifles!
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Old 10-10-2012, 19:48   #55
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I really wasn't trying to be a jerk.

I personally feel weird about telling someone they'll be GTG with something when there is debate about it. I think you'll be fine with a 1:7 twist, and experience tells me you'll be fine. A 1:7 will let you shoot the heavier bullets for longer range.

It's a trade off, chrome lined is more durable, stainless steel is more accurate. If you are OK with around 2 MOA a chrome-lined is fine. If you want better, stainless will get you there.

For $1,682.00 you can get a Larue Tactical PredatAR in 16" or 18". A light weight rifle that will get you great accuracy. It has a 1:8 twist stainless barrel with a Geissele 2 stage trigger. They are really cool rifles!
J word? Heck no. You are being most helpful and I appreciate it.

I've found over the years that GT has a high level of expertise in any area. Wanna know about sewing, I bet there are some people on GT who know all about it.

Ok, just how fragile are stainless steel barrels? Aren't some higher priced bolt all-weather hunting rifles made with them?

Also, why is stainless more accurate. Last time I shot benchrest competitions (20 years ago) I never noticed anyone using stainless. Of course, nobody was using AR's either

Last edited by ithaca_deerslayer; 10-10-2012 at 19:50..
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Old 10-10-2012, 20:45   #56
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J word? Heck no. You are being most helpful and I appreciate it.

I've found over the years that GT has a high level of expertise in any area. Wanna know about sewing, I bet there are some people on GT who know all about it.

Ok, just how fragile are stainless steel barrels? Aren't some higher priced bolt all-weather hunting rifles made with them?

Also, why is stainless more accurate. Last time I shot benchrest competitions (20 years ago) I never noticed anyone using stainless. Of course, nobody was using AR's either
I must be clear, I am a fan of stainless-barreled ARs. But, I am not a benchrest shooter, and I will probably never shoot out a chrome-lined barrel or a stainless barrel. I am also not ex-military or tactically-knowledged. I shoot almost exclusively for fun.

Chrome lining is made by lining a barrel that is made slightly larger and the chrome fills in the extra space. While it may be a good process it is going to produce imperfections. The stainless barrels are made to spec. Some manufacturers (FN and Noveske, IIRC) use a double-thickness chrome lining. I have read many times that a Noveske chrome-lined barrel is very accurate, but I have never had experience with one.

Chrome moly barrels should be very accurate too. You could get a chrome moly barrel melonited for added durability and maintain accuracy. It seems to work for Glocks, but it is relatively new for AR15s, IIRC. I have no knowledge of how melonited barrels are holding up over the long term.

Stainless just seems to be the material used by the best barrel makers for AR15s, accuracy-wise. The military uses stainless for the 18" SPRs.

I have read of some stainless barrels showing impressive durability through torture testing. But the chrome-lined barrels are made specifically to provide added durability.

To provide any additional information about this topic would be unfair, this is the extent of my knowledge, I am a hobbyist, not an expert.

Last edited by avenues165; 10-10-2012 at 20:53.. Reason: Clarification
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Old 10-10-2012, 22:11   #57
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Every bit as good.
This.

Colt is great. BCM is great, and most of my experience is with them. Their gear is fantastic, CS is top-notch, shipping is lightning quick. IMO, one of the few companies(firearms or otherwise) that delivers above and beyond the price tag.

I am open-minded, and piddle around with gear from other companies from time to time. All it ever does is reinforce my conviction that BCM is dollar for dollar, the best thing going.

...

Jeez, I sound like such a fanboy dweeb.
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Old 10-13-2012, 18:20   #58
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I got to shoot an AR-15 M4 style and an AR-15 A2 style today.

Hated the M4. It had a red dot but wasn't very accurate at all (not as accurate as my Saiga). I won't say the brand as I don't want to crap talk any particular brand. Owner has tried a variety of ammo, and it just isn't better than 5" groups at 100 yards with any of them.

But aside from that, seems too small to me, don't like the tube feel of a collapsable stock tube. Don't like the short hand guard. Even started to burn my finger because I shoot with my hand far forward and it was touching the barrel.

But the A2 I loved. It was a Colt with a Bushmaster stainless 16" heavy barrel using the the full length A2 guard, full length sight radius, too, I believe. He said everything is exactly like the original just that the barrel is shorter. Supposedly Bushmaster made those barrels for the A2, not sure if that specific type fits the M4 (I don't know about this stuff). Fixed handle, and what I assume are the standard AR iron sights, rear peep, and front post in the middle of a front curving v type pair of blades. I found the blades help to center the front sight inside the peep. I shot 1" groups at 50 yards. A lot better, by far, than what I was able to do with the M4 and its red dot.

I don't want to get caught up in the accuracy differences. I just really liked the feel of the A2. A lot less recoil, better fit, even seemed a smoother action.

Yeah I know, it is just a sample of 2. But gives me some ideas of what I like and don't like between the configurations. Please keep in mind that these opinions are just based on my own range preferences. There are real world uses for these guns that could show me different priorities and purposes to consider.

Too bad the A2 was firmly "not for sale"

Oh, no jams
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Old 10-13-2012, 22:26   #59
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Awesome, glad you got to try some out. Best way to get a feel for what suits you BEFORE you blow a stack of cash, lol.

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Old 10-13-2012, 22:32   #60
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
I got to shoot an AR-15 M4 style and an AR-15 A2 style today.

Hated the M4. It had a red dot but wasn't very accurate at all (not as accurate as my Saiga). I won't say the brand as I don't want to crap talk any particular brand. Owner has tried a variety of ammo, and it just isn't better than 5" groups at 100 yards with any of them.

But aside from that, seems too small to me, don't like the tube feel of a collapsable stock tube. Don't like the short hand guard. Even started to burn my finger because I shoot with my hand far forward and it was touching the barrel.

But the A2 I loved. It was a Colt with a Bushmaster stainless 16" heavy barrel using the the full length A2 guard, full length sight radius, too, I believe. He said everything is exactly like the original just that the barrel is shorter. Supposedly Bushmaster made those barrels for the A2, not sure if that specific type fits the M4 (I don't know about this stuff). Fixed handle, and what I assume are the standard AR iron sights, rear peep, and front post in the middle of a front curving v type pair of blades. I found the blades help to center the front sight inside the peep. I shot 1" groups at 50 yards. A lot better, by far, than what I was able to do with the M4 and its red dot.

I don't want to get caught up in the accuracy differences. I just really liked the feel of the A2. A lot less recoil, better fit, even seemed a smoother action.

Yeah I know, it is just a sample of 2. But gives me some ideas of what I like and don't like between the configurations. Please keep in mind that these opinions are just based on my own range preferences. There are real world uses for these guns that could show me different priorities and purposes to consider.

Too bad the A2 was firmly "not for sale"

Oh, no jams
Bear in mind, the 16" with rifle length gas system is what is known as a "dissipator". Dissipators can have gas issues which will make them unreliable. However, several companies offer a "mock dissipator" which is a carbine or midlength gas system hidden under the rifle length handguard, with an A-frame front sight pinned in place in the normal rifle position. You get the handguard and sight radius of an M16 with the better function of a midlength or carbine gas system, all on a more compact 16" barrel.
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