GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-09-2012, 15:41   #151
airmotive
Tin Kicker
 
airmotive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Debris Field
Posts: 6,997
Blog Entries: 1
Mrs. Airmotive, who at the age of 38, was just placed on the autism spectrum. She's an RN who graduated with a 3.98 from one of the most competitive BSN universities in the country. Yeah...the spike in autism rates have a LOT to do with diagnosis creep.
In the last 38 years, my wife hasn't changed...the definition of autism has changed.
__________________
----------------------------------------------------
Combine ignorance, arrogance and low altitude, and the result is guaranteed to be spectacular.
airmotive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 15:50   #152
Geko45
CLM Number 135
Smartass Pilot
 
Geko45's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Short final
Posts: 13,393


Quote:
Originally Posted by TactiCool View Post
Show me a study that conclusively proves that over diagnosis is the sole cause for the increase in autism. I've looked, and I sure can't find one.
If you know anything at all about how clinical studies are performed you would know that no one would ever make that claim no matter how compelling the evidence. Even if you find strong evidence of a corollary effect, there are always residuals (or errors) that represent other factors that have at least some influence. So, you either intentionally stated your request in a manner you knew would be unsupportable or you have no idea what you're talking about.

At any rate, a cursory search turned up this study which showed that at least one of the diagnostic systems used for identifying autism has most likely been overdiagnosing the disorder.

Three diagnostic systems for autism: DSM-III, DSM-III-R, and ICD-10

Quote:
ICD-10 draft research criteria for childhood autism were applied to a previously published data set comparing DSM-III and DSM-III-R to clinicians' diagnoses of autism. The ICD-10 approach paralleled clinicians' patterns of diagnosis and, to a lesser extent, the DSM-III system. Relative to either clinicians, DSM-III, or ICD-10 the DSM-III-R system overdiagnosed the presence of autism. Implications for research and for future revision of diagnostic criteria are discussed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TactiCool View Post
I've looked, and I sure can't find one.
You must not have looked very hard.
__________________
CavDoc: "If you have to pretend that a person with a different opinion has an opinion other than his own in order to score points in an argument, you've forfeited any points that you pretended to have."
CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

Last edited by Geko45; 10-09-2012 at 15:58..
Geko45 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 15:52   #153
sputnik767
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nickotym View Post
This has always made me scratch my head. I thought most people who support guns had enough sense to question the government's "we know best for you" attitude.

Now can any of the vaccine supporters show me one study that proves that it was vaccines that slowed those diseases or better sanitary practices that slowed those diseases? (ETA: Remember, correlation does not necessarily equal causation.) If you research the efficacy of vaccines I have no problem with you giving them to your children. I would ask you to respect my decision not to vaccinate my children. You know, "agree to disagree".
Correlation does not equal causation is an all-encompassing term that people like you tend to use as a fall back when they simple don't know what else to say. But when we have data showing the incidences of typical childhood diseases plummeting after vaccination programs were began, correlation does equal causation. Lets put it simply, better hygiene did not eradicate smallpox, vaccines did. Unfortunately, the kind of proof that you are looking for can't exist. All we can do is retrospective studies and try to identify what happened, and prove it with statistical analysis. As I said before, people like you are not making an educated decision, they are doing it for other reasons, be it paranoia, distrust of the government, or simply lack of understanding. But it does not make you an intelligent person for doing so, no matter what you like to believe.
sputnik767 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 16:05   #154
OlliesRevenge
Senior Member
 
OlliesRevenge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: WA
Posts: 577
Vaccines are not mandatory - Nearly everyplace outside the military it is possible to take some type of exemption (and it wouldn't even surprise me if there was an exemption for military members).

Before my daughter was born, the wife and I settled on a dramatically modified vaccine schedule, rather than the one size fits all "pump 'em full of shots" insanity -- For example, we did not allow our newborn to receive a HepB shot within minutes of her birth, as the wife was confident she did not have HepB, and we weren't planning on giving our newborn a blood transfusion (duh!).

There are two sides to the vaccine debate -
  • Medical Freedom.
  • Safety and efficacy of the vaccines.
Most of the conformist "take your shots" arguments can be handled in the medical freedom area alone since we have a concept called 'informed consent' that must be adhered to in medicine. Forcing someone to take shots against their will is a violation medical ethics and basic human rights.

Vaccines are not a panacea, they are a drug product manufactured by big Pharm corporations for a profit. They have risks and benefits. They are not subjected to double blind placebo controlled studies before approval, as most drugs are. Hell, Vioxx was subjected to double blind placebo controlled studies before approval... and it still wound up killing people and costing Merck billions in settlements. Given the additional fact that vaccine manufacturers are exempt from liability -- Caveat Emptor!

We are told that vaccines create immunity -- and in spite of the lack of research done to prove efficacy I have no reason to doubt this. I do have a problem with the logic of trying to mandate vaccines for everyone though. If they create immunity for me, why should I care if you are vaccinated or not? If I'm immune to the disease you have, I shouldn't care.

If we explore this conflict of logic we will find some doublethink at work. At the individual level, we are given the thumbs up & told that vaccines will protect us 100%. When the argument is made for for vaccine mandates though; we discover the "herd immunity" argument, which is based on the idea that vaccines don't work for everyone, and that we need to vaccinate a large percent of the population to prevent a particular disease from proliferating. So do vaccines work all the time, or just some of the time? You can't have it both ways.
__________________
Good men must not obey the laws too well.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson

Any fool can make a rule, and any fool will mind it.
~Henry David Thoreau

Remember always: The government is not the country!
OlliesRevenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 16:11   #155
Brian Lee
Drop those nuts
 
Brian Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Up a tree.
Posts: 7,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
That is not a "study" that is a sales pitch.

Pure BS.

I actually agree with Rabbi today.

That wasn't a "study" - just a sales pitch.
Brian Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 16:15   #156
RonS
Senior Member
 
RonS's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Oh, USA
Posts: 10,181
Natural selection applies to species, not individuals. The ability of a species to get food, make babies and keep them alive pretty much defines survival of the fittest. Refusing to wear clothing to keep warm, build shelters, cultivate food or employ medical technology might make stronger, tougher individuals of the few who survived but would be a good way to test if cockroaches really would inherit the earth after the human race goes extinct.
__________________
Decent law abiding people must fear criminals and the law while criminals have nothing to fear.
RonS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 16:16   #157
Brian Lee
Drop those nuts
 
Brian Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Up a tree.
Posts: 7,429
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
The US is the world leader in autism by a staggering large margin.

We are also the world leader in mandatory vaccines.

You do the math.
Maybe the autism is caused not by vaccines, but by any one of the other million or so possible causes that are currently up for debate.

I lean toward the belief that we should probably keep the vaccines and stop feeding our kids non-stop junk food made out of field corn that's been dosed with higher levels of herbicide than ever before.
Brian Lee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 16:24   #158
sputnik767
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NJ
Posts: 8,090
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Lee View Post
Maybe the autism is caused not by vaccines, but by any one of the other million or so possible causes that are currently up for debate.

I lean toward the belief that we should probably keep the vaccines and stop feeding our kids non-stop junk food made out of field corn that's been dosed with higher levels of herbicide than ever before.
This is actually an excellent point. I have seen some studies that suggest our dependence on corn, especially in the form of high fructose corn syrup is possibly contributing to the obesity epidemic. Without getting into too much detail, the metabolism of glucose is very highly regulated in your body, whereas the metabolism of fructose is virtually unregulated. HFCS is obviously mainly fructose, whereas sucrose (table sugar) is a dimer molecule of glucose and fructose. So still contains 50% fructose, but not as much as HFCS.
sputnik767 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 17:21   #159
Paul53
Geezer Boomer
 
Paul53's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Rosa's Cantina
Posts: 3,834
If an Aborigine designed an IQ test, all of Western civilization would presumably fail.
__________________
Just had lunch at The Rod and Gun Club. Finally realized that in "philly cheese steak," philly isn't referring to Philadelphia.

Paul53 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 17:57   #160
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 14,408
Vaccinations cause Herpes?? Wow, learn something every day.
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 18:18   #161
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,873


Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul53 View Post
If an Aborigine designed an IQ test, all of Western civilization would presumably fail.
Cultural bias in testing is real but your statement is not true. cross cultural psychology has a pretty good handle on these sort of things. "IQ" is pretty universal(even if some groups are smarter than others) if we remove the bias (which would not be "IQ"
__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 19:31   #162
F14Scott
CLM Number 283
Luggage
 
F14Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Katy, TX
Posts: 3,988


Quote:
Originally Posted by OlliesRevenge View Post
We are told that vaccines create immunity -- and in spite of the lack of research done to prove efficacy I have no reason to doubt this. I do have a problem with the logic of trying to mandate vaccines for everyone though. If they create immunity for me, why should I care if you are vaccinated or not? If I'm immune to the disease you have, I shouldn't care.

If we explore this conflict of logic we will find some doublethink at work. At the individual level, we are given the thumbs up & told that vaccines will protect us 100%. When the argument is made for for vaccine mandates though; we discover the "herd immunity" argument, which is based on the idea that vaccines don't work for everyone, and that we need to vaccinate a large percent of the population to prevent a particular disease from proliferating. So do vaccines work all the time, or just some of the time? You can't have it both ways.
I don't think anyone says vaccines are 100 percent effective. Vaccines are most effective when used on populations, rather than individuals, precisely because they are less than 100 percent effective. when you take a vaccine that is say, 98 percent effective and use it on in a population, the herd immunity that happens at the roughly 85 percent immunized range protects the other 2 percent.
__________________
If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.
F14Scott is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 20:26   #163
TactiCool
Senior Member
 
TactiCool's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Southeast LA.
Posts: 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
If you know anything at all about how clinical studies are performed you would know that no one would ever make that claim no matter how compelling the evidence. Even if you find strong evidence of a corollary effect, there are always residuals (or errors) that represent other factors that have at least some influence. So, you either intentionally stated your request in a manner you knew would be unsupportable or you have no idea what you're talking about.

At any rate, a cursory search turned up this study which showed that at least one of the diagnostic systems used for identifying autism has most likely been overdiagnosing the disorder.

Three diagnostic systems for autism: DSM-III, DSM-III-R, and ICD-10
I appreciate you looking up that study for me, really I do. However the study is from 1992 and says nothing about the subsequent publications, so it does not conclusively correlate to the dramatic increases in autism cases that we see under the use of DSMIV and DSMIV-TR.

Really, I don't think DSMIII-R is culprit, since the drastic spike in autism occurred after the newer DSMIV was published in 1994.

http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html

http://www.americanchiropractic.net/...%20pf%20ed.pdf
TactiCool is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 22:53   #164
airmotive
Tin Kicker
 
airmotive's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Debris Field
Posts: 6,997
Blog Entries: 1
Am I the only person who can see my posts?
Am I on everyone's ignore list? (probably a pretty decent chance on that one).

Again....My wife, who is and has been a healthcare professional for 15 years, was just recently evaluated and found to be on the autism spectrum. (Asbergers) She has just become one of the numbers.

She has not changed in the last 39 years.
The definition of autism has changed.

I bet if quite a few GTers took some simple online surveyes, you just might find yourself to be a natural born window licker.
__________________
----------------------------------------------------
Combine ignorance, arrogance and low altitude, and the result is guaranteed to be spectacular.

Last edited by airmotive; 10-10-2012 at 05:44..
airmotive is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 23:22   #165
AK_Stick
AAAMAD
 
AK_Stick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Alaska, again (for now)
Posts: 20,168
Send a message via AIM to AK_Stick Send a message via Yahoo to AK_Stick
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmotive View Post
Am I the only person who can see my posts?
Am I on everyone's ignore list? (probably a pretty decent chance on that one).

Again....My wife, who is and has been a healthcare professional for 15 years, was just recently evaluated and found to be on the autism spectrum. (Asbergers) She has just become one of the numbers.

She has not changed in the last 39 years.
The definition of autism has changed.

I bet if quite a few GTers took some simple online surveyes, you just might find yourself a natural born window licker.


Hell, I'm a certified window licker

<<<<CE....
__________________
Quote:
Thomas Paine:

"If there must be trouble, let it be in my day, that my children may have peace"
AK_Stick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 00:05   #166
MrGlock21
NRA Instructor
 
MrGlock21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: North Texas
Posts: 4,193


Quote:
Originally Posted by G36's Rule View Post
This thread has potential. Just need a few more GNG nutbaggers to show up...
well... I ,too, thought that there was potential. But when reading on, I got bored ...The usual egotistical exersice of back and forth 'lecturing' sometimes wears out pretty quick.
__________________
Liberalism is totalitarianism with a human face.
(Thomas Sowell)
MrGlock21 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 06:50   #167
OctoberRust
Anti-Federalist
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,642
The Okie Corral
OctoberRust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 07:10   #168
Hauptmann6
Senior Member
 
Hauptmann6's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Portage, MI
Posts: 9,198
Send a message via AIM to Hauptmann6 Send a message via MSN to Hauptmann6 Send a message via Yahoo to Hauptmann6
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
and some Jew, somewhere, doing his Jewy Jewish things!
So you admit that it's all your fault!
__________________
--Power corrupts. Absolute power is pretty groovy baby!--
Do you believe in forever?
I don't even believe in tomorrow
The only things that last forever
Are memories and sorrow
Hauptmann6 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 07:43   #169
MtBaldy
Obie Wan, RIP
 
MtBaldy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: At the beach
Posts: 15,946


Quote:
Originally Posted by airmotive View Post
Am I the only person who can see my posts?
Am I on everyone's ignore list? .
Ya know, I've often wanted a function to see who's, or at least how many, "Ignore" lists I'm on. Then, after reflecting, I usually come to the conclusion I'd probably rather not know. At any rate, you're not on mine.
__________________
ďA democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury."
― Elmer T Peterson
MtBaldy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 08:29   #170
SDGlock23
Glockoholic
 
SDGlock23's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Land of Forgetfulness
Posts: 7,502
There has been for quite some time now evidence pointing to autism being induced by vaccinations. Many articles can be found on this, here is just one http://www.naturalnews.com/027178_autism_vaccines.html

Also what better way to keep the populace needing the drugs the major pharmaceutical companies cash in on than to infect the very people who will be needing them? They load up our children with all sorts of bad stuff via forced vaccinations and all. I'm not saying all of it is bad, but how do you know that they aren't sneaking things into the vaccine that they won't tell you about?
__________________
"Condemnation without investigation is the height of ignorance."
SDGlock23 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 08:41   #171
OctoberRust
Anti-Federalist
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 5,642
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmotive View Post
Am I the only person who can see my posts?
Am I on everyone's ignore list? (probably a pretty decent chance on that one).

Again....My wife, who is and has been a healthcare professional for 15 years, was just recently evaluated and found to be on the autism spectrum. (Asbergers) She has just become one of the numbers.

She has not changed in the last 39 years.
The definition of autism has changed.

I bet if quite a few GTers took some simple online surveyes, you just might find yourself to be a natural born window licker.
Where can I take this test without forking out any money or going to a hospital? I'm willing to be I'm a window licker.
OctoberRust is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 09:29   #172
djf
Senior Member
 
djf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Idaho
Posts: 281
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
The US is the world leader in autism by a staggering large margin.

We are also the world leader in mandatory vaccines.

You do the math.
Interesting you mention this. I work in the Autism research field. One of my customers is Ami Klin who is arguably the top researcher in the field of Autism. They all say that Autism is most likely a genetic disorder.

Here's a Ted talk by Ami Klin. Note how he never mentions vaccines.

http://www.ted.com/talks/ami_klin_a_...se_autism.html

Basically, I'm suggesting that you're completely full of crap.

Last edited by djf; 10-10-2012 at 09:32..
djf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 09:48   #173
.264 magnum
CLM Number 121
Charter Lifetime Member
 
.264 magnum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Dallas TX
Posts: 16,637
Quote:
Originally Posted by djf View Post
Interesting you mention this. I work in the Autism research field. One of my customers is Ami Klin who is arguably the top researcher in the field of Autism. They all say that Autism is most likely a genetic disorder.

Here's a Ted talk by Ami Klin. Note how he never mentions vaccines.

http://www.ted.com/talks/ami_klin_a_...se_autism.html

Basically, I'm suggesting that you're completely full of crap.
Agreed the OP and several others in this thread at 100% full of crap.
__________________
The Gonzales Flag - "Come and Take It!"
.264 magnum is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 09:56   #174
Brucev
Senior Member
 
Brucev's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 9,189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
http://healthimpactnews.com/2011/new...ated-children/



And now you know why.

They make vaccines mandatory. They give unlimited indemnity to the vaccine manufacturers. The population gets sicker and sicker and we end up with Obamacare. What a great country!!
Someone needs to get some sleep. That often helps irrational thinking.
Brucev is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 10:32   #175
Rabbi
Lifetime Membership
The Bombdiggity
 
Rabbi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: San AntonioTexas
Posts: 29,873


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hauptmann6 View Post
So you admit that it's all your fault!
Oh no...not my fault...my design!

The Okie Corral

__________________
In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
Rabbi is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:18.



Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,114
327 Members
787 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 11:42