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Old 10-08-2012, 21:23   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
"becoming a surgeon or scientist?" You mean choosing to be a medical researcher, a scientist or a MD for the purpose of researching a cure for these conditions?

There's nothing unnatural or wrong with having the knowledge to cure/prevent these things. In fact, knowledge is good. But there's also nothing wrong with people refusing to undergo these vaccinations.

(Or are you saying universal mandatory vaccination?)
You are not staying on message. You dont even know what your arguement is, you just know how you feel. Good luck with that.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:23   #102
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
By that logic, car safety devices should be done away with since people who survive violent wrecks may become "mentally stronger" and instill pride in their children by living a "normal" life in spite of their crippling injuries.
Let's not forget smoking, drinking alcohol to excess or doing drugs. What are you going to do, pass universal laws to prevent everyone to stop doing these things? Because it's good for society?
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:24   #103
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Or maybe this, parents may opt out of vaccinations for their children, but if their child subsequently dies from a desease that was preventable through vaccination then then they are fair game for negligent homicide charges. Seems fair to me, if they are so certain they are choosing the correct course then they have nothing to worry about.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:31   #104
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
You are not staying on message. You dont even know what your arguement is, you just know how you feel. Good luck with that.
Yes, this is how I feel. Believe it or not, universal vaccination is not a one-size-fits-all solution.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:33   #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Or maybe this, parents may opt out of vaccinations for their children, but if their child subsequently dies from a desease that was preventable through vaccination then then they are fair game for negligent homicide charges. Seems fair to me, if they are so certain they are choosing the correct course then they have nothing to worry about.
Interesting. Would the same hold true for Jehovah's Witnesses, Chritian Scientists and Seventh Day Adventists? HH
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:36   #106
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Yes, this is how I feel. Believe it or not, universal vaccination is not a one-size-fits-all solution.
You still are off message.

Again, the key data point you put on the table. At this point, vaccinations are a detail lost in the noise of you "big picture" thoughts on allowing children to die that we can fix.

Quote:
Unfortunately, not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory of Survival of the Fittest should not be interfered with.
Focus.
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In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:38   #107
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Or maybe this, parents may opt out of vaccinations for their children, but if their child subsequently dies from a desease that was preventable through vaccination then then they are fair game for negligent homicide charges. Seems fair to me, if they are so certain they are choosing the correct course then they have nothing to worry about.
And if a child crossing the street gets hit by a drunk driver, the parents should be responsible because the parents didn't teach the child how to cross the street correctly?

Or if the child turns out to be a really bad person and kills some one, then the parents should charged with murder for bad parenting?

Your child drinks and gets into a DWI accident, killing someone, you should be charged with murder?
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:39   #108
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Originally Posted by HighTechRedneck View Post
He then retorted to a comment about life spans by invoking Methuselah, which is clearly a reactive comment from a religious perspective.
To be fair, the Methuselah reference was actually Glocksanity, not Patchman, but I do agree with your central thesis.
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Last edited by Geko45; 10-08-2012 at 21:39..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:41   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
And if a child crossing the street gets hit by a drunk driver, the parents should be responsible because the parents didn't teach the child how to cross the street correctly?

Or if the child turns out to be a really bad person and kills some one, then the parents should charged with murder for bad parenting?

Your child drinks and gets into a DWI accident, killing someone, you should be charged with murder?
Red herrings all, in each instance above someone else is much more directly responsible than the parent (i.e. the drunk driver in the first scenario or the child themself in the second and third).
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CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:42   #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Let's not forget smoking, drinking alcohol to excess or doing drugs. What are you going to do, pass universal laws to prevent everyone to stop doing these things? Because it's good for society?
Eh? They DO have laws governing smoking age, minimum age for drinking, DUI laws, automobile safety standards, etc.

Are you advocating removing all of that?

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Old 10-08-2012, 21:47   #111
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
You still are off message.

Again, the key data point you put on the table. At this point, vaccinations are a detail lost in the noise of you "big picture" thoughts on allowing children to die that we can fix.



Focus.
Rabbi, focus. The thread is about vaccinated vs unvaccinated children.

My position is, no, children should not be vaccinated against the several diseases. Let nature take it's course.

My "big picture" position is that universal mandatory vaccination should NOT be forced upon families.
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Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 10-08-2012 at 21:50..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:51   #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Rabbi, focus. The thread is about vaccinated vs unvaccinated children.

My position is, no, children should not be vaccinated against the several diseases. Let nature take it's course.

My "big picture" position is that universal mandatory vaccination should NOT be forced upon family.
No. What you said here is a bigger issue than the vaccine issue.

In your quest for freedom from something, you would advocate the death of children. Your position is not very well thought out.

Quote:
Unfortunately, not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory of Survival of the Fittest should not be interfered with.
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In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:53   #113
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Red herrings all, in each instance above someone else is much more directly responsible than the parent (i.e. the drunk driver in the first scenario or the child themself in the second and third).
Bad parenting is contributory negligence in all three cases.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:54   #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Rabbi, focus. The thread is about vaccinated vs unvaccinated children.
Ok, good. Then you agree that your tangential analogies about smoking, drinking, drug abuse, DUI, and other types of criminal behavior are all moot side topics with no real purpose other than to obfuscate the fact that you have no coherent thought to put forward on this topic other than your vague notion of what "feels" right.
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CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

Last edited by Geko45; 10-08-2012 at 21:55..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:56   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Bad parenting is contributory negligence in all three cases.
A child getting hit by a drunk driver while crossing the street is, "bad parenting?" OK, you win. HH
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:57   #116
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No. What you said here is a bigger issue than the vaccine issue.

In your quest for freedom from something, you would advocate the death of children. Your position is not very well thought out.
No, Rabbi, you've mis-reading my posts. My posts are a reply to the thread's topic: vaccination or no vaccination for children.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:59   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Bad parenting is contributory negligence in all three cases.
I see you've chosen to continue the fight. Bravo, sir.

Are you now also a legal scholar? Because I've never heard of a single case where the charge was "bad parenting contributory negligence." Can you cite a source?
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:04   #118
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I see you've chosen to continue the fight. Bravo, sir.

Are you now also a legal scholar? Because I've never heard of a single case where the charge was "bad parenting contributory negligence." Can you cite a source?
My point exactly. My post you're referring to was in response to post 103, which said that if a parent refuses to vaccinate a child, and the child dies, then the parent is guilty of negligent homicide.
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Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 10-08-2012 at 22:07..
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:05   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
My position is, no, children should not be vaccinated against the several diseases. Let nature take it's course.
Should we also eschew asthma medication, corrected vision, antibiotics, ... for our children (and ourselves) since those also circumvent environmental pressures for natural selection?

-ArtificialGrape
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:09   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
My point exactly. My post you're referring to was in response to the other post which said that if a parent refuses to vaccinate a child, and the child dies, then the parent is guilty of homicide.
I said negligent homicide, and it wouldn't be the result of "bad parenting" in the same manner as your other examples (all of which were at least one level removed), but rather from denying their child an obvious life saving medical procedure (direct inaction).

But back to my last point, are we staying on the topic of vaccinations or are we taking side trips down every "what if" scenario you can think of? Or option three (your apparent choice) where you can take as many tangents as you like, but you expect all of us to confine ourselves explicitly to vaccinations?
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CavDoc: "If you have to pretend that a person with a different opinion has an opinion other than his own in order to score points in an argument, you've forfeited any points that you pretended to have."
CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."

Last edited by Geko45; 10-09-2012 at 06:57..
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:12   #121
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Should we also eschew asthma medication, corrected vision, antibiotics, ... for our children (and ourselves) since those also circumvent environmental pressures for natural selection?

-ArtificialGrape
How strongly do you believe in the theory of natural selection?
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:14   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
No, Rabbi, you've mis-reading my posts. My posts are a reply to the thread's topic: vaccination or no vaccination for children.
No, nothing else matters until you deal with this, you said it.

Quote:
Unfortunately, not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory of Survival of the Fittest should not be interfered with.
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In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:16   #123
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Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
I said negligent homicide, and it wouldn't be the result of "bad parenting" in the same manner as your other examples (all of which were at least one level removed), but rather from denying their child on obvious life saving medical procedure (direct inaction).

But back to my last point, are we staying on the topic of vaccinations or are we taking side trips down every "what if" scenario you can think of? Or option three (your apparent choice) where you can take as many tangents as you like, but you expect all of us to confine ourselves explicitly to vaccinations?
My posts have always been about vaccinations. It's everyone else who jumped on about everything "what ifs."
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And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:19   #124
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No, nothing else matters until you deal with this, you said it.
Yes, vaccinations should not be mandatory because not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory should not be interfered with.

Does it sound cold and heartless? Yes. Do I believe it? Yes.
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Sounds like he has nothing left but be a monkey's uncle. It's not like he's got a monkey's manhood left.

And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.

Last edited by Patchman; 10-08-2012 at 22:20..
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:21   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
My posts have always been about vaccinations. It's everyone else who jumped on about everything "what ifs."
Where did I mention any "what ifs" before you introduced these tangent scenarios?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Geko45 View Post
Or maybe this, parents may opt out of vaccinations for their children, but if their child subsequently dies from a desease that was preventable through vaccination then then they are fair game for negligent homicide charges. Seems fair to me, if they are so certain they are choosing the correct course then they have nothing to worry about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
And if a child crossing the street gets hit by a drunk driver, the parents should be responsible because the parents didn't teach the child how to cross the street correctly?

Or if the child turns out to be a really bad person and kills some one, then the parents should charged with murder for bad parenting?

Your child drinks and gets into a DWI accident, killing someone, you should be charged with murder?
__________________
CavDoc: "If you have to pretend that a person with a different opinion has an opinion other than his own in order to score points in an argument, you've forfeited any points that you pretended to have."
CavDoc: "You consider yourself as non-religious, and I consider you a religious zealot."

JBnTX: "Freedom of religion doesn't mean you can worship any God, anyway you see fit or not even worship any God if you so choose. [...] Christianity should be the only religion protected under the constitution, and congress shall make no law restricting its practice."
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