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Old 10-08-2012, 20:24   #76
tsmo1066
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Diseases that you get will kill you, or, if you survive it, makes you stronger (and you pass that on to your children).
That's really not true. Some diseases strengthen one's immune system, to be sure, but others, like Polio, often leave their victims weakened, crippled and permanently disfigured for life.

The old adage of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" doesn't always ring true when it comes to childhood diseases.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:27   #77
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The argument is more along the lines that the over-dosaging of children with vaccines creates more health problems than it prevents.

It is one thing to give a few for some major diseases, but when kids end up getting thirty or forty or fifty vaccines before their bodies are able to develop a mature immune system, you are creating more health problems than you are preventing.

Like we really need mandatory HPV vaccines without parental consent?

My oh my, how ever did man evolve and survive without vaccines? I'll tell you how. Herd immunity kept the strong alive and the weak perished. It's called nature. Get used to it.

Vaccines are great if they are voluntary. But mandatory vaccines are tyranny. And they kill.
Just about everything is in your statement is 100% wrong. Like you, I don't have a medical degree, but unlike you, I will have one in less than 2 years. I really wish people would quit spouting this sort of misinformation. It's useless at best and harmful at worst.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:29   #78
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Originally Posted by F14Scott View Post
1) It's not Arnold, it's Nietzsche.

2) Do you eat food made with preservatives? Packaged in plastic? Canned? Refrigerated? Cooked with any of that sciencey fire? Seems to me that if you find some road kill or a mushroom, you should eat it. Then, if you die, that's what god/nature/Darwin intended. Classifying, cooking, and preserving food all smack of artificially avoiding the natural and good process of either dying off because you can't eat poison or passing on your superior, creator-endowed, genetically-capable digestive system to your progeny.
Do I prefer eating foods with preservatives? No. Do I have a choice? Realistically, no.

As for forefathers who were hunter/gathers, they recognized what foods were editable. They then passed that knowledge on to their progeny, who were smart enough to understand that. Those who didn't grasp that knowledge (and their progeny) aren't here anymore.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:29   #79
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Originally Posted by F14Scott View Post
The US is the leader in nuclear aircraft carriers per capita.

We are also the world leader in NFL players injured on Sundays.

YOU do the math.

hint: correlation does not necessarily indicate causation.
So you mean a lot people washing their car doesn't create a sunny day?

I almost NEVER see anyone washing their car when it is raining -

So no one washing their car creates rain?


Last edited by Z71bill; 10-08-2012 at 20:31..
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:33   #80
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Do I prefer eating foods with preservatives? No. Do I have a choice? Realistically, no.

As for forefathers who were hunter/gathers, they recognized what foods were editable. They then passed that knowledge on to their progeny, who were smart enough to understand that. Those who didn't grasp that knowledge (and their progeny) aren't here anymore.
Are you willing to redefine old age as 45 and middle aged as 20? If we're going back to hunting/gathering tribes, then those numbers are about right.

Oh, and the difficulty level of your retort is: no mythical people. If you're arguing nature, how 'bout leaving the storybooks out of the discussion?
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:34   #81
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So you mean a lot people washing their car doesn't create a sunny day?

I almost NEVER see anyone washing their car when it is raining -

So no one washing their car creates rain?

Washing a car creates a sunny day?!? Come on! That's just an old wive's tale!

Everyone knows that putting on swimsuits and suntan lotion is what causes sunny days!

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Old 10-08-2012, 20:35   #82
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
That's really not true. Some diseases strengthen one's immune system, to be sure, but others, like Polio, often leave their victims weakened, crippled and permanently disfigured for life.

The old adage of "what doesn't kill you makes you stronger" doesn't always ring true when it comes to childhood diseases.
I come from a background where polio vaccination was not universal, so I know some who are affected by that disease. And I also know they go on to produce healthy children. But that's part of nature. They survived and they moved on to reproduce. Darwin's theory at work.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:42   #83
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I come from a background where polio vaccination was not universal, so I know some who are affected by that disease. And I also know they go on to produce healthy children. But that's part of nature. They survived and they moved on to reproduce. Darwin's theory at work.
They may move on (when they don't die from it), but it certainly doesn't make them, or their children, any stronger.
Polio also often causes premature muscular degeneration in adults years, or even decades, after infection.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/chi...ren/polio.html
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:47   #84
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I come from a background where polio vaccination was not universal, so I know some who are affected by that disease. And I also know they go on to produce healthy children. But that's part of nature. They survived and they moved on to reproduce. Darwin's theory at work.
Have you even read On The Origin Of Species? HH
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:51   #85
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
They may move on (when they don't die from it), but it certainly doesn't make them, or their children, any stronger.
Polio also often causes premature muscular degeneration in adults years, or even decades, after infection.

http://www.merckmanuals.com/home/chi...ren/polio.html
"Stronger" is not necessarily physically stronger. Survivors of polio may be mentally "stronger" because they know they overcame something serious. And their children can take pride in knowing their parent was strong enough to overcome some serious illness by living out a full and normal life, which in turn could instill in them (the children) a sense of pride or achievement or proudness in the family heritage.
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And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:52   #86
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Have you even read On The Origin Of Species? HH
Yes. Twice. And there was no mention of polio vaccinations.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:53   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
"Stronger" is not necessarily physically stronger. Survivors of polio may be mentally "stronger" because they know they overcame something serious. And their children can take pride in knowing their parent was strong enough to overcome some serious illness by living out a full and normal life, which in turn could instill in them (the children) a sense of pride or achievement or proudness in the family heritage.
So, in your warped world, that is fine, but becoming a surgeon or scientist who actually fixes such things is "unatural?"
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:54   #88
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What doesn't kill you makes you weaker, not stronger. That's just feel good nonsense. You survive polio, small pox, spanish flu, whatever... you are weaker for it. Now, the overall strength of the surviving population might come up slightly in the aftermath of a pandemic, but not because any individuals were made stronger. Rather, because the weak were simple killed off and no longer count towards the population mean.

With that said, I think it would be somewhat Darwinian to allow people to opt out of vaccinations for their children. Their offspring carrying their genetically inferior intelligence would be more likely to die before reproducing and the offspring of the more intelligent would be more likely to survive and pass on their genes. If you're to stupid to recognize the advantages of vaccination then your progeny should not carry forward.

Yep, works for me.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:55   #89
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
I have no medical credentials. I only have life experience.

So what are your credentials that says vaccinations are best for mankind? And that no other opinions need apply?
Don't be an idiot.

Again:
Smallpox
Polio
etc.
Beating back these horrific diseases proves vaccinations are best for mankind.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:56   #90
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
"Stronger" is not necessarily physically stronger. Survivors of polio may be mentally "stronger" because they know they overcame something serious. And their children can take pride in knowing their parent was strong enough to overcome some serious illness by living out a full and normal life, which in turn could instill in them (the children) a sense of pride or achievement or proudness in the family heritage.
By that logic, car safety devices should be done away with since people who survive violent wrecks may become "mentally stronger" and instill pride in their children by living a "normal" life in spite of their crippling injuries.
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:56   #91
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A lot less people, which wouldn't have been a bad thing.

http://medicalpictures.net/wp-conten...x-pictures.jpg
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:00   #92
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Don't be an idiot.
No, let the idiots opt out and continue dieing at higher than necessary rates. That should give the darwinian advantage to the more intelligent that recognize the advantages to vaccination.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:08   #93
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So, in your warped world, that is fine, but becoming a surgeon or scientist who actually fixes such things is "unatural?"

"becoming a surgeon or scientist?" You mean choosing to be a medical researcher, a scientist or a MD for the purpose of researching a cure for these conditions?

There's nothing unnatural or wrong with having the knowledge to cure/prevent these things. In fact, knowledge is good. But there's also nothing wrong with people refusing to undergo these vaccinations.

(Or are you saying universal mandatory vaccination?)
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:10   #94
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Originally Posted by Glocksanity View Post
I feel like I am talking to cavemen in this thread.

Maybe I should have said:

Cops and Vaccines are good for you! Trust all of them all the time. They are there to help you!!!

Ha ha ha.
Sometimes it's ok to admit that you don't know what you are talking about, or at least stop talking. Because talking out of your butt doesn't make it favorable for you.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:13   #95
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First you say

"I'm against medication of any kind unless one's very, very sick. And yes, I do believe MDs today over-prescribe everything.

Unfortunately, not every child is meant to survive to adulthood. Darwin's theory of Survival of the Fittest should not be interfered with."

Then you say

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
"becoming a surgeon or scientist?" You mean choosing to be a medical researcher, a scientist or a MD for the purpose of researching a cure for these conditions?

There's nothing unnatural or wrong with having the knowledge to cure/prevent these things. In fact, knowledge is good. But there's also nothing wrong with people refusing to undergo these vaccinations.

(Or are you saying universal mandatory vaccination?)
So is curing/preventing these things good, or interfering with survival of the fittest, as you've previously proposed?


Also, I would appreciate very much if you'd address the other posts I've made in response to some of your earlier claims. Thanks.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:13   #96
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What doesn't kill you makes you weaker, not stronger. That's just feel good nonsense. You survive polio, small pox, spanish flu, whatever... you are weaker for it. Now, the overall strength of the surviving population might come up slightly in the aftermath of a pandemic, but not because any individuals were made stronger. Rather, because the weak were simple killed off and no longer count towards the population mean.

With that said, I think it would be somewhat Darwinian to allow people to opt out of vaccinations for their children. Their offspring carrying their genetically inferior intelligence would be more likely to die before reproducing and the offspring of the more intelligent would be more likely to survive and pass on their genes. If you're to stupid to recognize the advantages of vaccination then your progeny should not carry forward.

Yep, works for me.
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Originally Posted by .264 magnum View Post
Don't be an idiot.

Again:
Smallpox
Polio
etc.
Beating back these horrific diseases proves vaccinations are best for mankind.

Good. So you gentlemen would have no issues with those who choose to opt out of universal mandatory vaccinations.
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And thank YOU for being perfect, all the time, every time. Go forth and reproduce. We need more of you.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:14   #97
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
Do I prefer eating foods with preservatives? No. Do I have a choice? Realistically, no.

As for forefathers who were hunter/gathers, they recognized what foods were editable. They then passed that knowledge on to their progeny, who were smart enough to understand that. Those who didn't grasp that knowledge (and their progeny) aren't here anymore.
You certainly do have a choice. Organically grown fruits and vegetables. Whole grains you grind yourself. Free range animals for meat. Sure, it would be expensive, but paying all that money for the health benefits would surely be worth it.

But, wait. Wouldn't driving to the store in a techno-car be artificially defeating your hunter-gatherer roots? I mean, if you don't walk to hunt or gather it, aren't you denying your offspring the potential pride of your hardship?

Sir, in so many different and interesting ways, your suppositions and rebuttals have been soundly and thoroughly picked apart, by some of the brightest guys on this board, no less. I don't know whether I want you to stop (to save yourself further embarrassment) or to continue ('cause this is fun). So, by all means, do either...
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:17   #98
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Good. So you gentlemen would have no issues with those who choose to opt out of universal mandatory vaccinations.
Actually, no. As long as no tax dollars are used to treat their subsequent polio and small pox infections and the parents are required to watch their child whither away and die due to their stupidity. Other than that, no, not at all...

Seems like a Swift solution to the problem to me.
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:19   #99
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"becoming a surgeon or scientist?" You mean choosing to be a medical researcher, a scientist or a MD for the purpose of researching a cure for these conditions?

There's nothing unnatural or wrong with having the knowledge to cure/prevent these things. In fact, knowledge is good. But there's also nothing wrong with people refusing to undergo these vaccinations.

(Or are you saying universal mandatory vaccination?)
The problem is, the majority of people who refuse vaccinations do so because of a lack of understanding. They are not making an educated decision. Sure there are some people who can't receive the flu shot because of an egg allergy, or live-attenuated vaccines because they are immunosuppressed for example, but those people are few. These threads here always smell of conspiracy theories, "research" that is not actually research, and worst of all, misinformation and fear-mongering. Keep this simple thing in mind: if you are refusing vaccinations, you are doing so based on nothing more than our own stupidity. But while you are certainly allowed to be stupid, trying to make your case to other gullible people puts their lives and the lives of others under their care potentially at risk.

Last edited by sputnik767; 10-08-2012 at 21:21..
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:20   #100
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I have a growing suspicion that Patchman is not the "follower of Darwin" he professes to be.

He previously mentioned "G-d", which is significant because those who won't even spell god tend to show an inordinate reverence for the Christian belief system, including intelligent design and the derision of anyone who claims evolution as an answer.

He then retorted to a comment about life spans by invoking Methuselah, which is clearly a reactive comment from a religious perspective.

These items, coupled with his rabid defense of his warped, misinterpreted, and almost absurd to the point of farcical description of Darwinism makes me think he is simply attempting (poorly, as it were) to lampoon the entire concept of evolution and Darwin's theories regarding survival of the fittest.
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