GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-08-2012, 08:56   #61
PEC-Memphis
Scottish Member
 
PEC-Memphis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Doh ?
Posts: 3,936
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcc12 View Post
I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
During college I worked at a doc's office (pulmonary). I did a chest x-ray of a fairly large guy (probably 6'-4"; 280#) who was getting a Tn-DVR exam (disability). I developed the CXR (back then we used tanks to develop the film), between developer and fixer, I'd usually make a quick check of the film with a darkroom light. I thought a film had been splattered with fixer. After fully processing the film, and looking at it on the light-box, it was apparent that he had been shot (twice) with birdshot - the lateral films showed that one set of shot was in the front and the other was in the back - both with little penetration.

I asked that pt about it - he said it was from a shotgun - from two separate incidents.

I asked why the ER didn't remove the shot, he said something to the effect of - he didn't go to the ER (either time) because it wasn't "in his best interest at the time".
__________________
To all members of our Armed Forces - past, present and future - thank you for your service to our country.

Last edited by PEC-Memphis; 10-08-2012 at 08:58..
PEC-Memphis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 09:31   #62
RichardB
Silver Membership
Senior Member
 
RichardB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: NC
Posts: 1,402
Shotgun World has had extensive similar discussions.

For Jello lovers only.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtopic.php?t=109958

I'm sure that Mr Google will find many more like discussions with penetration numbers and more photos of jello, hog and beef flesh and bones, and maybe people.
__________________
Richard

“Food for thought is no substitute for the real thing”

Last edited by RichardB; 10-08-2012 at 09:32..
RichardB is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 10:35   #63
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
I use only 12 guage 00 buck, though I have some slugs as well, though that is going to have some penentration issues. My thought is if you can't hit with 00 buck there are some serious issues. Birdshot is for birds for a reason. You are more likely to make an agressive person even angrier with birdshot.
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-08-2012, 20:51   #64
Glock19Fan
Cool Guy
 
Glock19Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 2,058
With the military being very specific about what type of projectiles they use, I think their choice of buckshot speaks volumes about what is the best for defense.

With that said, the only shotgun I have is a NEF single shot 20 gauge with #3 buckshot. Energy wise its very similar to 12 guage 00 buckshot loads, but with more (smaller) pellets. I have a stock sleeve with 2 more of the same load, and 3 slugs.

The shotgun is not my primary defensive weapon though.
__________________
Never mistake Kindness for Weakness
Glock19Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 08:16   #65
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Oh, heck with it. I'll stick to my 12ga Slug & 3 OO buckshot pellet loads.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 08:23   #66
valvestem
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Maine
Posts: 60
Why not just use rock salt and shoot the BG in the butt? LOL
valvestem is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 08:34   #67
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by valvestem View Post
Why not just use rock salt and shoot the BG in the butt? LOL
The jury wouldn't view it to kindly.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 08:47   #68
ROGER4314
Senior Member
 
ROGER4314's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: East Houston
Posts: 212
I started reloading with shotgun shells in the 1960's and had access to trash dumps in Kansas where I shot several times per week. I've shot about every product, material and item on the planet with 12 gauge rounds and know what they'll do.

I have supreme confidence in 00 Buck loads and have loaded and fired cases of them. Birdshot, while absolutely fatal at very close range loses effectiveness so rapidly with distance, that it's a mistake to consider it for SD use. I've been shot several times with birdshot at 60-70 yards, it failed to penetrate my winter clothing and just plain made me mad!

I use 00 buck and slugs. That's the end of the tale for me.

Flash
__________________
You gotta die of something.....It may as well be something that you like!

Loving the Harley idle....potato, potato, potato.
ROGER4314 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 10:21   #69
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by ROGER4314 View Post
I started reloading with shotgun shells in the 1960's and had access to trash dumps in Kansas where I shot several times per week. I've shot about every product, material and item on the planet with 12 gauge rounds and know what they'll do.

I have supreme confidence in 00 Buck loads and have loaded and fired cases of them. Birdshot, while absolutely fatal at very close range loses effectiveness so rapidly with distance, that it's a mistake to consider it for SD use. I've been shot several times with birdshot at 60-70 yards, it failed to penetrate my winter clothing and just plain made me mad!

I use 00 buck and slugs. That's the end of the tale for me.

Flash
Same here, I use a combo load - slug and 3 OO buck pellets.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 12:06   #70
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 21,651
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcc12 View Post
I'm not saying that one should use birdshot over buck or vice versa. What I am saying is I have seen several people who were shot by accident with birdshot form >20ft who were hurt very bad. Of the 3 I have seen who were shot from <15ft in a defense situation with birdshot all three died in the trauma bay. Just saying
More than likely that was w/ some choke, it matters. Avg shot spread for riot chokes, 1"/yard or 6"-7" @ 20ft. Unless the shot is heavy & the hit on an unobsturcted area, like the throat/face, it's not likely to hit anything vital. A denim jacket would slow the shot enough, add a layer of muscle/fat, the BG is just gonna be pissed off. Geeze, I have had wet pheasent not drop from a solid hit w/ #6 @ 60ft from a mod choke. Doesn' give me confidence in birdhsot of any flavor for serious SD.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 10-09-2012 at 13:58..
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 12:11   #71
scccdoc
Senior Member
 
scccdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,390
Are birds breaking into your house? DOC
scccdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2012, 18:12   #72
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by scccdoc View Post
Are birds breaking into your house? DOC
heh heh heh heh!
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 12:36   #73
weagle
Senior Member
 
weagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Atlanta Ga
Posts: 615
Blog Entries: 2
Bird Shot at home defense distances is a game stopper. No handgun would even come close with the exception of a CNS hit.

Based on my experience dispatching various animals at close range there was no reason to believe that bird shot would not have a similar effect on humans. That theory was supported by a buddy of mine who is the chief radiologist at the largest level 1 trauma center in the southeast US. The number of gunshot injuries they see each year is unreal. In over 30 years he has never seen a single individual that has survived a shotgun blast to the torso at room distances. I asked him if it matter what type of load was used and he said no. He said at room distances the shot acted as a single frangible projectile and the trauma and blood loss was "not survivable"

On the other hand, they patch folks up regularly with multiple shots to the torso from all flavors of handgun rounds. Some of these have been on the receiving end of local law enforcement shooting .40 and .45 ACP glocks fed with Remington bonded Golden sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Speer gold dots etc.

I keep #4 turkey loads in mine, but I have no reason to doubt the opinion of my friend especially since it mirrors what most of the EMT, trauma center type folks have related in this thread.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Certified Glock Armorer/GSSF Lifetime Member
Glock Professional Instructor
weagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 13:24   #74
fredj338
Senior Member
 
fredj338's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: so.cal.
Posts: 21,651
Blog Entries: 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by weagle View Post
Bird Shot at home defense distances is a game stopper. No handgun would even come close with the exception of a CNS hit.

Based on my experience dispatching various animals at close range there was no reason to believe that bird shot would not have a similar effect on humans. That theory was supported by a buddy of mine who is the chief radiologist at the largest level 1 trauma center in the southeast US. The number of gunshot injuries they see each year is unreal. In over 30 years he has never seen a single individual that has survived a shotgun blast to the torso at room distances. I asked him if it matter what type of load was used and he said no. He said at room distances the shot acted as a single frangible projectile and the trauma and blood loss was "not survivable"

On the other hand, they patch folks up regularly with multiple shots to the torso from all flavors of handgun rounds. Some of these have been on the receiving end of local law enforcement shooting .40 and .45 ACP glocks fed with Remington bonded Golden sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Speer gold dots etc.

I keep #4 turkey loads in mine, but I have no reason to doubt the opinion of my friend especially since it mirrors what most of the EMT, trauma center type folks have related in this thread.
You honestly can't say that w/o discussing choke, it matters. Open riot choke @ 21ft, if the guy is wearing heavy clothing & big enough, it is NOT a game stopper, not by a lot. Anyone that hunts bigger birds knows this. If you are going to load #4 birdshot why not #4 buck? It's certainly going to get thru any clothing worn & even from a riot choke, those heavier pellets will certainly pentrate heavy muscle & bone. The only reason to choose birdshot is becasue it's all you have.
__________________
"Given adequate penetration, a larger diameter bullet will have an edge in wounding effectiveness. It will damage a blood vessel the smaller projectile barely misses. The larger permanent cavity may lead to faster blood loss. Although such an edge clearly exists, its significance cannot be quantified".

Last edited by fredj338; 10-10-2012 at 13:25..
fredj338 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 13:49   #75
scccdoc
Senior Member
 
scccdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by weagle View Post
Bird Shot at home defense distances is a game stopper. No handgun would even come close with the exception of a CNS hit.

Based on my experience dispatching various animals at close range there was no reason to believe that bird shot would not have a similar effect on humans. That theory was supported by a buddy of mine who is the chief radiologist at the largest level 1 trauma center in the southeast US. The number of gunshot injuries they see each year is unreal. In over 30 years he has never seen a single individual that has survived a shotgun blast to the torso at room distances. I asked him if it matter what type of load was used and he said no. He said at room distances the shot acted as a single frangible projectile and the trauma and blood loss was "not survivable"

On the other hand, they patch folks up regularly with multiple shots to the torso from all flavors of handgun rounds. Some of these have been on the receiving end of local law enforcement shooting .40 and .45 ACP glocks fed with Remington bonded Golden sabers, Winchester Ranger T, Speer gold dots etc.

I keep #4 turkey loads in mine, but I have no reason to doubt the opinion of my friend especially since it mirrors what most of the EMT, trauma center type folks have related in this thread.
You make very sounds points if your ER friend is telling the truth and I believe he is. That is why my first line of defense is a shotgun(18" pump). However if I have to defend myself with a handgun, do I use a .22 or a.40? The .40 of course, imho. Therefore , if I am going to "eliminate a threat", do I use large shot or small shot in a shotgun? Large shot, no question. Many out here may confuse what bird shot is. There is a "skeet" load(low powder), "game" load(medium powder), and what we use to call "high brass"( for duck and pheasant) or heavy powder. If you use bird shot, get the "high brass"(excuse my ancient terminology, I only reload pistol cartridges).My SD cartridges are factory high grain rds, I would not prefer to shoot my low grain reloads for "eliminating a threat". I keep my pistol as close as my pump in my bedroom.

Shotguns are more accurate for most people and studies I've read, say it is the best "one shot stop". I use 00 buck, if it will bring down a 160 lb deer, I trust it for my needs. I've never seen a seasoned deer hunter deliberately load with "bird shot" to kill a deer. Debate this all you want, but for a little more money per round, WHY USE BIRD SHOT?
scccdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 13:59   #76
weagle
Senior Member
 
weagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Atlanta Ga
Posts: 615
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
You honestly can't say that w/o discussing choke, it matters. Open riot choke @ 21ft, if the guy is wearing heavy clothing & big enough, it is NOT a game stopper, not by a lot. Anyone that hunts bigger birds knows this. If you are going to load #4 birdshot why not #4 buck? It's certainly going to get thru any clothing worn & even from a riot choke, those heavier pellets will certainly pentrate heavy muscle & bone. The only reason to choose birdshot is becasue it's all you have.
Choke means nothing at 7 yds. I load turkey loads because they are higher quality shells (high brass, more reliable feeding/ extraction) than most target loads. Buck shot will penetrate walls/ floors etc more effectively than bird shot. A real issue in my house. Once bird shot loads have passed through sheet rock, doors, floors etc they may still be dangerous, but much less lethal than buckshot.

At 21 feet a skeet load will render a canadian goose into mangled sack of goo, so I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to larger birds.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Certified Glock Armorer/GSSF Lifetime Member
Glock Professional Instructor

Last edited by weagle; 10-10-2012 at 14:03..
weagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 14:11   #77
weagle
Senior Member
 
weagle's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: Atlanta Ga
Posts: 615
Blog Entries: 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by scccdoc View Post
Debate this all you want, but for a little more money per round, WHY USE BIRD SHOT?
In my case it's because my house is 3 floors and many scenarios could have me shooting up and down stairwell/floors as well as out through many windows toward very nearby homes.

At 7 yds bird shot is very deadly on humans. At 40 yds or after passing through a solid barrier, much less so.

I have plenty of buckshot at home, so cost does not come into play. If there was a civil unrest scenario and I was having to defend against attackers from outside my home you can bet I'd switch to a rifle, or slugs and or buckshot as the situation dictated.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.

Certified Glock Armorer/GSSF Lifetime Member
Glock Professional Instructor

Last edited by weagle; 10-10-2012 at 14:18..
weagle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 14:32   #78
scccdoc
Senior Member
 
scccdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by weagle View Post
Choke means nothing at 7 yds. I load turkey loads because they are higher quality shells (high brass, more reliable feeding/ extraction) than most target loads. Buck shot will penetrate walls/ floors etc more effectively than bird shot. A real issue in my house. Once bird shot loads have passed through sheet rock, doors, floors etc they may still be dangerous, but much less lethal than buckshot.

At 21 feet a skeet load will render a canadian goose into mangled sack of goo, so I have no idea what you are talking about with regard to larger birds.
To each his own. But I will shoot through sheet rock if he does not respond to my invitation to give me a clear shot................
scccdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 14:37   #79
scccdoc
Senior Member
 
scccdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 1,390
Quote:
Originally Posted by weagle View Post
In my case it's because my house is 3 floors and many scenarios could have me shooting up and down stairwell/floors as well as out through many windows toward very nearby homes.

At 7 yds bird shot is very deadly on humans. At 40 yds or after passing through a solid barrier, much less so.

I have plenty of buckshot at home, so cost does not come into play. If there was a civil unrest scenario and I was having to defend against attackers from outside my home you can bet I'd switch to a rifle, or slugs and or buckshot as the situation dictated.
As I said above,"to each his own". That post was written about 25 minutes ago but got hung up here before I could proof read and submit. Hope neither of us ever have to test out our theories.......... DOC
scccdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2012, 14:43   #80
pokersamurai
Member
 
pokersamurai's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 95
IMO anything birdshot can do, buckshot can do better.

Also, to me the whole over-penetration thing seems to be blown way out of proportion. First of all, if you just hit what you're aiming at then over-penetration does not matter. A miss with birdshot is going to be way more dangerous than #1 buckshot (my preferred HD load) that hits the bad guy. Even if #1 buck does penetrate all the way through the BG and through a sheet rock wall it's going to have lost so much energy that its going to be no more dangerous than birdshot that misses.

The way I look at it, a person shot with birdshot MAY CHOOSE to stop after getting hit. However, a person shot with buckshot will usually have no choice in the matter.
__________________
"It's not the bullet with my name on it that worries me. It's the one that says "To whom it may concern."
pokersamurai is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 19:49.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 1,488
409 Members
1,079 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,244
Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42