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Old 10-08-2012, 04:43   #76
larson1122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
Yeah, all the people with the same reaction have BTF problems and those that are telling you what you're doing wrong don't.

Gee, I think is see a pattern.
The "pattern" is that some guns have the problem, and some don't. Period. To state that wearing gloves causes erratic ejection is utterly ridiculous.
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:50   #77
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Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
OK, so much for that theory. Not the weak ammo.

Here's another thing I noticed. At precisely two minutes and fifty seconds into the video, you show the G17 in profile close up. The assembly tensioning the extractor is in backwards. The spring loaded bearing (SLB) is plainly visible just behind the extractor with a coil of the spring showing also. Did you, just by any chance, have the pistol in this condition when you were shooting the video? The spring coil that is showing could easily bind on the front of the channel it's in, as that end is quite sharp (sharp enough to chew up the front of the extractor depressor plunger after just a few hundred rounds).

Here's a screen shot I took from your video showing what I am talking about.

General Glocking
Wow! dhgeyer, you get, 'The Catch Of The Day Award'!

I wish I had your eyesight!

Nevertheless, that backwards EDP rod doesn't explain the rub marks on the actual head of Raleigh Glocker's EDP rod. That a backwards rod will adversely affect extraction/ejection is a given. The only question is, 'By how much?'

I've read reports from shooters who had their EDP rods in backwards. In an otherwise properly functioning Glock it didn't seem to make much difference; the Glock still worked. So the question becomes, 'What effect does this mistake have on an improperly functioning Glock pistol?' I'm going to suggest that this would only further weaken already weak ejection; BUT, at no time in the past have I ever heard of this causing a BTF problem. BTF problems with Glock pistols are a relatively recent problem.



NOTE: Raleigh Glocker, if you want to, 'get in bed' with Glock, Smyrna that's entirely your business; but, personally, I'm more careful about whom I sleep with.

Last edited by Arc Angel; 10-08-2012 at 06:52..
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:58   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.
A. So since he has stated and demonstrated that initially it was ejecting fine, does this mean you think he's intentionally allowing it to happen just to prove some sort of point?

B. Maybe they're comfortable for him - not relevant, doesn't affect you at all, red-herring.

C. I quite enjoy his videos, he goes into detail about the nature of the part involved and whatnot, then does several shooting strings - each one being relevant to the video in that it is testing different ammo. Testing variables to eliminate causes is part of the scientific method to try to determine the source of the issue, hence it is valid in that context.

Seems more like you're just either in a bad mood, or have something against him personally for some reason, especially with point B.

Bottom line - if you don't like his style, don't watch. If this video is too long for you, watch his other ones that fit your preferences.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:10   #79
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
Wow! dhgeyer, you get, 'The Catch Of The Day Award'!

I wish I had your eyesight!

Nevertheless, that backwards EDP rod doesn't explain the rub marks on the actual head of Raleigh Glocker's EDP rod. That a backwards rod will adversely affect extraction/ejection is a given. The only question is, 'By how much?'

I've read reports from shooters who had their EDP rods in backwards. In an otherwise properly functioning Glock it didn't seem to make much difference; the Glock still worked. So the question becomes, 'What effect does this mistake have on an improperly functioning Glock pistol?' I'm going to suggest that this would only further weaken already weak ejection; BUT, at no time in the past have I ever heard of this causing a BTF problem. BTF problems with Glock pistols are a relatively recent problem.



NOTE: Raleigh Glocker, if you want to, 'get in bed' with Glock, Smyrna that's entirely your business; but, personally, I'm more careful about whom I sleep with.
That was an amazing catch- one other viewer also caught it and posted on m4carbine.net about it.

Like I mentioned, the G17 was never fired this way, and I just inserted stills into the Gen 4 G23 companion video I'm working on showing the G17's SLB in the correct orientation that day at the range.

I'm still at a loss here about "getting in bed" with Glock. All I am doing is seeing how they handle it so that I can share that on my YouTube channel for those who aren't apt to try to fix things themselves.

To me, this is just a tool that is easily replaced with countless others out there, including other Gen 4 G17s. Glock can't hurt me by being involved with this. If they screw it up, no big deal. I will just take over and do all the same things I'd be doing to it now without their input. That's what I would report in my follow up video, and others will be better for it. If they get it right, I can report on that.

This is not a representation of my personal motivation to understand the world around me or me trying to get cozy with Glock. I think you're reading way too much into this. Heck, if that were my plan, this video was certainly a weird way of doing it.

I do appreciate your participation in this thread.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:21   #80
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How did you "send the video in"? You actually made a DVD or what?
When I called I asked for their manager's email address. The CS rep was very professional and provided it to me; emailed the link and shipped the gun back. Had a new gun in 8 days.
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:37   #81
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I would be curious to know what steps Glock is taking to correct these issues, if any. Who knows? Glock inc. might be selling so many pistols that they don't care about the (possibly few) numbers that exhibit BTF.

My guess is that most gun owners don't shoot thousands of rounds through their guns like we do. . .
I was at a Glock Armorers class last week. Glock's response to the erratic ejection issue is:

(pick one or more)
It's not a wide spread problem that is hyped by the internet;
Check the ejector and RSA for the correct part;
If you have the correct ejector and RSA, send the pistol in for repair;
It could be caused by weak ammo;
It could be cause by limp wristing.

The instructor said it was not an extractor issue!

With all of these possibilities Glock has yet to explain why older Gen3 9mm Glocks run perfectly while newer Gen3 and Gen4 9mms are having issues.

I love my Gen4 9mms and hope the Apex extractor solves the erratic ejection issues.

Mike
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Old 10-08-2012, 08:44   #82
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
Wow! dhgeyer, you get, 'The Catch Of The Day Award'!

I wish I had your eyesight!

Nevertheless, that backwards EDP rod doesn't explain the rub marks on the actual head of Raleigh Glocker's EDP rod. That a backwards rod will adversely affect extraction/ejection is a given. The only question is, 'By how much?'
My eyesight isn't all that great. I've just been taking my slide apart and putting it back together again so much lately (trying out homemade and aftermarket extractor parts) that it jumped out at me.

RG has stated that the gun was never fired in that condition, so it's really a moot point.

The rub marks on the EDP has been noticed and discussed in other threads. I don't know if there is a consensus on this (what causes it and what it does), but I have my opinion. It happened to mine also. I noticed it after JBS pointed it out in another thread. My gun had about 500 rounds on it at that point. I can't say when it would have become visible had I been watching for it. I attribute this wear to a sharp edge on the front of the extractor assembly channel in the slide and the hardness of the slide. In my gun the original EDP is a loose enough fit in the channel that I would rule out binding.

JBS said that he has seen guns in his shop that had wear in this location that would almost surely impede steady tension on the extractor. I think that might be one small piece of the puzzle of why extraction/ejection can go bad on these guns after X number of rounds.

Last edited by dhgeyer; 10-08-2012 at 09:34..
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:16   #83
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Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker View Post
....... This is not a representation of my personal motivation to understand the world around me or me trying to get cozy with Glock. I think you're reading way too much into this. Heck, if that were my plan, this video was certainly a weird way of doing it.

I do appreciate your participation in this thread.
Well, thank you!

As you can, probably, tell my personal experience with Glock, Smyrna hasn't been good; in fact, I've been flat-out lied to and on more than one occasion. To my mind it makes no sense to spend between $40 and $60 dollars to send a pistol to Glock, Smyrna only to get, 'the bum's rush' and some lame-ass excuse as to why your Glock isn't working.

Most of my life I carried very expensive 1911 pattern pistols. Then I decided it didn't make a whole lot of sense to carry Austin Behlert, 'heirloom quality' 1911's (and Browning P-35's) around with me all day long. So, I took the, 'cheap plastic pistol plunge'.

Absolutely trouble-free and 100% reliable my Glocks have not been. The first two I bought were actually erratic life-threatening performers and had serious OOB problems. The factory did nothing but repeatedly lie to me about, 'Why' these pistols didn't work.

My eyesight remained in jeopardy the entire time I used them; AND, if the Portland Police Bureau and the Georgia State Patrol hadn't owned similar pistols and filed a joint lawsuit against Glock, GmbH/Inc. I would, in all probability, still be having problems with these pistols today.

(While I was using these defective Glocks a U.S. Secret Service Agent in NYC lost his eyesight when his G-21 exploded in his face! I consider myself very lucky to have been able to avoid the same unfortunate mishap and become another one of Glock, 'GmbH/Inc.'s hush-hush out of court settlements.)

Personally, I don't need to spend good money, lose a pistol for up to 3 months, and then get it back with some new parts (That I could have easily changed, myself, at my workbench) and a terse note that says something inane like, 'Pistol is within specification'.

More than once I've, also, had Smyrna tell me, 'Are you sure you're not limpwristing?' (This from people who weren't even born, yet, when I began pistol shooting!) I try to be philosophical about Glock pistols. They're cheap; they often work; and when they do work, they work well; BUT, Glock pistols don't always work; and they don't always work well.

To my mind the outstanding virtue of a Glock pistol is that with a few spare parts you can keep one up and running, 'forever'; and, with only a little technical knowledge and some other mechanical know-how, you can keep your Glock in good repair by working at home on your kitchen table.

Glocks are one of the cheapest pistols ever manufactured; that's a fact! They are NOT, however, trouble-free. Over the past two years, or so, Glock, GmbH has been on a severe cost-cutting spree. I've got two old Glocks from 2003 that I finally got to work right; and they are now 100% dependable, too.

Compared to what I see in dealers' showcases, today, the slide finish is better; the internal steel parts and plating are better; and even the frames appear to be better made than a lot of what I look at. (The springs you can forget about! First thing I do with any Glock is throw all the factory, 'contract springs' away and replace them with superior Wolff Gunsprings.)

Here's exactly, 'How' I've come to see things: If I had to depend on Glock, Smyrna to keep my pistols up and running, ALL of my EDC's would be either SIG, Kimber, or CZ. I don't want anybody telling me, 'It's the ammunition;' or, 'You're probably limp-wristing the pistol.'

I teach other people how to shoot; I'm way way past having anyone teach me; I've known and sat for hours on end at the workbenches of some of the most talented gunsmiths in America, too. I naturally resent it when some smug factory con artist tries to, 'pull the wool over my eyes' by offering lame excuses about why I can't get his cheap - and getting ever cheaper - plastic pistol to work properly.

Before this most recent Glock problem is all said and done, I'll get my BTF problem solved too. So far I've lost (or, depending upon your viewpoint, wasted) a couple of hundred dollars; it looks like I'm going to have to spend some more money, too; but, in the end, I'll have another cheap plastic Glock pistol for an EDC that doesn't endanger my eyesight every time I pull the trigger.

Is Glock, Smyrna going to have anything to do with a final solution to my BTF problems? Probably not, and certainly not anytime soon either. Historically, it would take direct involvement from the New York City Police Department, or The Portland Police Bureau in order to accomplish that!

Last edited by Arc Angel; 10-08-2012 at 09:44..
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:26   #84
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Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
....... The rub marks on the EDP has been noticed and discussed in other threads. I don't know if there is a consensus on this (what causes it and what it does), but I have my opinion. It happened to mine also. I noticed it after JSB pointed it out in another thread. My gun had about 500 rounds on it at that point. I can't say when it would have become visible had I been watching for it. I attribute this wear to a sharp edge on the front of the extractor assembly channel in the slide and the hardness of the slide. In my gun the original EDP is a loose enough fit in the channel that I would rule out binding.

JSB said that he has seen guns in his shop that had wear in this location that would almost surely impede steady tension on the extractor. I think that might be one small piece of the puzzle of why extraction/ejection can go bad on these guns after X number of rounds.
Well, there IS an alternative explanation!

I am positive that the EDP rod is NOT striking (or, 'nesting') up against the exact same place on the back of the extractor every time. I think, but I cannot prove, that the extractor's, 'pivot pin' and the hole in the slide it rides in are also involved. Furthermore I believe the excessive vertical, 'slop' between the slide cutout, and the extractor's top and bottom, 'flats' has something to do with all of this.
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:40   #85
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Thanks for sharing
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:54   #86
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Originally Posted by Arc Angel View Post
Well, there IS an alternative explanation!

I am positive that the EDP rod is NOT striking (or, 'nesting') up against the exact same place on the back of the extractor every time. I think, but I cannot prove, that the extractor's, 'pivot pin' and the hole in the slide it rides in are also involved. Furthermore I believe the excessive vertical, 'slop' between the slide cutout, and the extractor's top and bottom, 'flats' has something to do with all of this.
Good points AA. Quite possibly all of the above and more - lots of explanations out there and most of them plausible. Your experiences with Glock and your perspective is enlightening to say the least.

I have the G19 and a S&W M&P Full Size 9mm. Both guns same price range, both had "issues" as purchased. The Glock has the erratic ejection, the M&P had less than stellar accuracy out of the box. It's also a bit bulky for EDC. I have been able to absolutely cure the M&P by installing a KKM match barrel. Now it groups better than the Glock. I had to make a shorter front sight to get to shoot where it looks, but that effort is behind me.

I waffle every day which gun to take with me. The M&P is absolutely reliable (1100 rounds now), has consistent ejection, and is accurate and dead on with "bizzness" ammo. The Glock has never out and out jammed (700 rounds now), is certainly accurate enough, and is easier to conceal. The Glock also has a better trigger for fast shooting. The M&P trigger can be made wonderful by the throwing of more wampum at Apex. I have not done that.

I can't say that I'm really happy with either company. They both put out product that has issues in X number of cases and don't seem to be in any hurry to find a fix. The problems with the Smith are pretty well sorted out by Internet savvy users, and the cures are known, albeit a bit pricey. The Glock issues are not settled, and there's no known way to be sure of solving them.

But the G19 is such a sweet all around gun.

FRUSTRATING!
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Old 10-08-2012, 09:56   #87
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Originally Posted by dhgeyer View Post
The rub marks on the EDP has been noticed and discussed in other threads. I don't know if there is a consensus on this (what causes it and what it does), but I have my opinion. It happened to mine also. I noticed it after JBS pointed it out in another thread. My gun had about 500 rounds on it at that point. I can't say when it would have become visible had I been watching for it. I attribute this wear to a sharp edge on the front of the extractor assembly channel in the slide and the hardness of the slide. In my gun the original EDP is a loose enough fit in the channel that I would rule out binding.

JBS said that he has seen guns in his shop that had wear in this location that would almost surely impede steady tension on the extractor. I think that might be one small piece of the puzzle of why extraction/ejection can go bad on these guns after X number of rounds.
This is why I zoomed in on it for the photos on Facebook.

My Gen 4 G23 with 2k trouble-free rounds through it has no visible wear whatsoever on the bearing. Is this significant? I don't know...
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:10   #88
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Good points AA. Quite possibly all of the above and more - lots of explanations out there and most of them plausible. Your experiences with Glock and your perspective is enlightening to say the least.

I have the G19 and a S&W M&P Full Size 9mm. Both guns same price range, both had "issues" as purchased. The Glock has the erratic ejection, the M&P had less than stellar accuracy out of the box. It's also a bit bulky for EDC. I have been able to absolutely cure the M&P by installing a KKM match barrel. Now it groups better than the Glock. I had to make a shorter front sight to get to shoot where it looks, but that effort is behind me.

I waffle every day which gun to take with me. The M&P is absolutely reliable (1100 rounds now), has consistent ejection, and is accurate and dead on with "bizzness" ammo. The Glock has never out and out jammed (700 rounds now), is certainly accurate enough, and is easier to conceal. The Glock also has a better trigger for fast shooting. The M&P trigger can be made wonderful by the throwing of more wampum at Apex. I have not done that.

I can't say that I'm really happy with either company. They both put out product that has issues in X number of cases and don't seem to be in any hurry to find a fix. The problems with the Smith are pretty well sorted out by Internet savvy users, and the cures are known, albeit a bit pricey. The Glock issues are not settled, and there's no known way to be sure of solving them.

But the G19 is such a sweet all around gun.

FRUSTRATING!
I cannot help, but, to agree with everything you've stated.

(And, as unsatisfied with - and actually a little afraid of - my G-19(RTF2) as I'd be a fool NOT to be, I also like my compact Glock better than any other EDC, 'cheap plastic pistol'. What a truly damned shame that we, all, have to go through this!)

General Glocking

General Glocking

As you can see, 'Old habits die hard!' I am, presently, heavily invested in this, 'cheap plastic pistol'. If I'm ultimately unable to get this problem solved, ...... I'm going to take a, 'real financial bath'!
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:20   #89
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That's a sweet lookin' piece there AA!
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Old 10-08-2012, 10:55   #90
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I have been following this thread in a somewhat distracted way, but I have a question.

Is it conceivable that there is a bit of play that is introduced in the ejector because of heat? It would seem to me that if heat, either over time or during a range session, were to allow the ejector to move it may end up making contact incorrectly and thus, well, ejecting incorrectly.
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Old 10-08-2012, 12:23   #91
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Oh fer chrissakes!!!

Just because you don't understand something, doesn't make it wrong......you're just out of touch with modern shooting techniques. Gloves are fine, butt-out is fine.

The OP is shooting just fine, something Fuds that probably don't own GEN4s can't figure out.

"Stand up straight sonny.....dad gum it!!"
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Old 10-08-2012, 15:53   #92
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I have been following this thread in a somewhat distracted way, but I have a question.

Is it conceivable that there is a bit of play that is introduced in the ejector because of heat? It would seem to me that if heat, either over time or during a range session, were to allow the ejector to move it may end up making contact incorrectly and thus, well, ejecting incorrectly.
I suppose that's possible, but I wouldn't put it very high on my list of "suspects". I don't shoot my gun fast enough to get it more than warm. I had severe problems with my first Gen 4 G19 - bad enough that I finally traded it in where I bought it for an M&P. I did tell the buyer that it was a problem gun. My second Gen 4 G19 is much better, but still not perfect. Neither gun ever got very hot.

I bet that if you did a poll, you would find that those who shoot mag dumps don't have any higher percentage of problems than those who don't, if you normalize for factors like total rounds through the gun, cleaning schedule, type of ammo, and etc.
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Old 10-08-2012, 16:28   #93
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.
I really want to see how good you are. I would love to see a video of you shooting your gen4. I know you have one!
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Old 10-08-2012, 16:39   #94
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I really want to see how good you are. I would love to see a video of you shooting your gen4. I know you have one!
Ditto.
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Old 10-08-2012, 16:41   #95
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
+1!




Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.
f@#$ing please, are you two really glock employees or are you just super fanboys?
ive asked you guys before, can you MAKE a glock eject to the left or foward? my gen 3 was a consistent 6:00 ejecting glock with the occasional left/foward left ejection. it was completely random with dozens of ammo types, cheap and quality. if it was ejecting erratically, it would usually stovepipe that day.
Again, how would you explain this gen 3 ejecting at 6:00 in a vice?
this is how it normally ejected-
I can say i know you both are 100% wrong cause ive owned a complete POS 03/12 gen 3 19 and 08/12 gen 4 that so far has functioned flawless with much better ejection(as seen here)-
same shooter, same ammo, different gun. please tell me its my grip- if i need to do more than this, i dont want a glock.(how would you explain a video i have of me literally barely holding the gun, letting it recoil to the point it goes almost vertical, but ejection doesnt change- stays to the right)
BTW- please lets see a vid of either of you shooting. show us the proper way please. Also, show me a video of either of you getting a glock to eject at 6:00 or left on command. Any ammo, any grip. ill be waiting.
Raleigh Glocker- excellent video that illustrates this problem. I was in the same boat at one point where i may not have believed it myself since my glock track record up until my late gen 3 was perfect.
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:19   #96
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I really want to see how good you are. I would love to see a video of you shooting your gen4. I know you have one!

I currently own THREE. Never had BTF. Not once. I shoot Weaver style.

Why would I post a video? I have no need for attention and everyone would claim photoshop as there would be no BTF coupled with my dashing looks.
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:55   #97
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Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
I currently own THREE. Never had BTF. Not once. I shoot Weaver style.

Why would I post a video? I have no need for attention and everyone would claim photoshop as there would be no BTF coupled with my dashing looks.
So you're not going to show us your skill in anything other than being an internet mall ninja? Roger, well done
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:45   #98
Made in Austria
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo View Post
I currently own THREE. Never had BTF. Not once. I shoot Weaver style.

Why would I post a video? I have no need for attention and everyone would claim photoshop as there would be no BTF coupled with my dashing looks.
Why not post a video!? Posting a video has nothing to do with looking for attention. We are just sharing our hobby and experience in form of a video. Maybe I can learn something watching you shoot weaver style. Come on, post one! Don't be a chicken Tiro!
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Old 10-08-2012, 20:55   #99
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Originally Posted by Made in Austria View Post
Why not post a video!? Posting a video has nothing to do with looking for attention. We are just sharing our hobby and experience in form of a video. Maybe I can learn something watching you shoot weaver style. Come on, post one! Don't be a chicken Tiro!
found him shooting a M&P 9c.....seems like there is a BTC "brass to camera" problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzSK0nf8svA
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Old 10-08-2012, 21:09   #100
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found him shooting a M&P 9c.....seems like there is a BTC "brass to camera" problem.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzSK0nf8svA

Mamma mia, that gun ejects terrible, even worse than some Glock's do.
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