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Old 10-05-2012, 12:18   #151
NOLA_glock
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Snipped for concision.
One of the biggest factors in this argument, for some people, is that there is just no clear-cut definition for life -- neither under the broad umbrella of biological studies, nor colloquially.

In any freshman bio101 class, on the very first day, the professor will make it clear that "life" cannot be defined absolutely, though they will give a handful of characteristics for what is accepted as things that living entities must do or be:

Respond to external stimuli.

Organized into cells.

Reproduce (sexually or asexually).

Grow.

Maintain homeostasis.

There will be others, but I understand some of them to be redundant (e.g. I would consider "adaptation" to be an extrapolation on "responding to external stimuli")

Living things must conform to most or all of the characteristics described. That in itself gives rise to a rather convoluted process of filing some things into the "living" and "nonliving" bins -- not to mention the difficulty in determining what constitutes something that, for example, "responds to external stimuli".

Nonetheless, I contend that we would all agree that a from a zygote onwards would be considered "living", by the biological "definition", as imperfect as it may be. I find this topic as bearing no importance on the argument other than in order for one to be a person, one must first be alive.

The real issue is that of the point in development at which something should be considered a person protected by all of the laws we afford to people. This is where all bets are off, scientifically, as "person-ness" isn't really the kind of thing that can be quantified scientifically in the first place. I'd suspect that if we were to try to construct a rigorous definition of "person", it would be just as convoluted as that of life. That (again, just my opinion) seems to be one of the biggest issues of contention, and is why people tend to have very staunch feelings on the matter, not to mention why some people will talk of babies being murdered while others will speak about blastulae or fetuses being aborted. The problem with biological milestones separating "not yet a person" from "person" is that they are all necessarily arbitrary. Are you a person from conception? Implantation? From birth? Somewhere in between? This is where the real argument lies, though I don't see there being an absolute answer on the matter right now.

I know where I stand on this issue, but I also realize that based on the way I understand the argument, it is nothing more than an arbitrary line I have drawn.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:29   #152
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How many people that believe in zero abortion believe in "pulling the plug" on a person who is a "vegetable"? Wouldn't society be obligated to protect those who can't protect themselves?

Hasn't it been established in this thread that high level cognitive brain activity isn't a condition for human life?


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Old 10-05-2012, 12:50   #153
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How many people that believe in zero abortion believe in "pulling the plug" on a person who is a "vegetable"? Wouldn't society be obligated to protect those who can't protect themselves?

Hasn't it been established in this thread that high level cognitive brain activity isn't a condition for human life?


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I'm about said all I'm gonna say on all of this but I'll answer this one.

"Pulling the plug" is in no way the same thing. When you "pull the plug" you end the artificial (mechanical) means to keep someone alive who cannot survive without them.

Abortion is different in that you are actually terminating the life.

It gets complicated again in medical emergencies, since if the fetus cannot survive outside the body at that time it is a lot like pulling the plug (since if the mother dies, the fetus dies).

Abortion in the case of rape is much more complicated, especially if a child is the one impregnated as I would tend to believe that a child is less likely to report the abuse or rape than an adult. IMO that is a situation where you have to decide which bucket of @@@@ to eat.

The best analogy I can come up with is this:

Pulling the plug would be like not helping someone change a flat tire. You didn't cause it but you aren't helping them either. Actually, it would be more like not helping them change a tire on a car about to blow it's engine. Abortion is puncturing the tire itself, regardless of the condition of the engine. It's not a perfect example but all I can come up with right now.
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Old 10-05-2012, 12:52   #154
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A fetus can't survive without the mother.


If the mother doesn't want the child, how is that any different than pulling the plug?
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Old 10-05-2012, 13:43   #155
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Exactly the same rule applies. What you consider "non-scientific" is as much governed by your beliefs as which "scientific" approach you consider valid. To you "viability outside the womb" standard is "non scientific" only because it conflicts with your belief system.
That's not true. Of the four common standards for determining where life begins that are used in the Abortion debate, three of them have hard, quantifiable and measurable scientific cornerstones that have nothing whatsoever to do with religion.

The Genetics standard - Creation of a unique, human genome.

The Embryonic standard - Occurance of Gastrulation.

The Neurological standard - Presence of measurable brainwave activity.

Only the "viability outside of the womb" standard has no quantifiable scientific criteria behind it. If you feel differently, here's a challenge for you: Please define, in a quantifiable and scientifically supportable fashion, exactly what "viability outside of the womb" means, and do so in a way that would exclude two year-old infants who, like a late-term fetus, can neither feed nor sustain themselves outside of the womb absent constant adult intervention and support.
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Old 10-05-2012, 14:07   #156
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Originally Posted by NOLA_glock View Post
One of the biggest factors in this argument, for some people, is that there is just no clear-cut definition for life -- neither under the broad umbrella of biological studies, nor colloquially.

In any freshman bio101 class, on the very first day, the professor will make it clear that "life" cannot be defined absolutely, though they will give a handful of characteristics for what is accepted as things that living entities must do or be:

Respond to external stimuli.

Organized into cells.

Reproduce (sexually or asexually).

Grow.

Maintain homeostasis.

There will be others, but I understand some of them to be redundant (e.g. I would consider "adaptation" to be an extrapolation on "responding to external stimuli")

Living things must conform to most or all of the characteristics described. That in itself gives rise to a rather convoluted process of filing some things into the "living" and "nonliving" bins -- not to mention the difficulty in determining what constitutes something that, for example, "responds to external stimuli".

Nonetheless, I contend that we would all agree that a from a zygote onwards would be considered "living", by the biological "definition", as imperfect as it may be. I find this topic as bearing no importance on the argument other than in order for one to be a person, one must first be alive.

The real issue is that of the point in development at which something should be considered a person protected by all of the laws we afford to people. This is where all bets are off, scientifically, as "person-ness" isn't really the kind of thing that can be quantified scientifically in the first place. I'd suspect that if we were to try to construct a rigorous definition of "person", it would be just as convoluted as that of life. That (again, just my opinion) seems to be one of the biggest issues of contention, and is why people tend to have very staunch feelings on the matter, not to mention why some people will talk of babies being murdered while others will speak about blastulae or fetuses being aborted. The problem with biological milestones separating "not yet a person" from "person" is that they are all necessarily arbitrary. Are you a person from conception? Implantation? From birth? Somewhere in between? This is where the real argument lies, though I don't see there being an absolute answer on the matter right now.

I know where I stand on this issue, but I also realize that based on the way I understand the argument, it is nothing more than an arbitrary line I have drawn.
I agree with everything you say and don't mean to give the impression that if you believe in science, you should oppose abortion (or anything similar).

I do believe, however, that there is a middle ground between granting a developing fetus "all" of the rights of a person vs granting it "none" of them and treating it like a simple lump of tissue, to be discarded at will.

We don't give minor children "all" of the rights of a person (at least an adult person), but we do grant them basic protections and acknowledge that they are, in fact, living entities worthy of preserving. I believe that the same basic recognition should be granted, at a minimum, to late-term (third trimester) unborn babies.
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Old 10-05-2012, 14:15   #157
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Old 10-05-2012, 14:19   #158
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There has been a great deal of lucid logic with supporting data provide here. Access to this kind of information is immensly helpful and would help anyone in making their own decisions about abortion, and this is where the issue should end. HH
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Old 10-05-2012, 15:09   #159
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Well,I'm standing here in front of the mirror. Panties,bra and silk stockings,I do look stunning but I just ain't feeling it!

This year,coin toss , heads tails thing !
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Old 10-05-2012, 15:16   #160
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Well,I'm standing here in front of the mirror. Panties,bra and silk stockings,I do look stunning but I just ain't feeling it!

This year,coin toss , heads tails thing !


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Old 10-05-2012, 17:26   #161
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Let me find a camera....
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Old 10-05-2012, 18:19   #162
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I'm not sure what your idea of abortion is or medical practice in general; but it isn't like baking cookies.

The people that have the know how and the equipment to carry out abortions are currently doing so. The people that are not currently offering abortions either don't have the equipment or they don't have the know how. That is never going to change.

You can pay for:
A) an abortion
B) food stamps, school lunch, medical care, housing, ect for a period of 18 years+ years.

personally, from a purely political/economical standpoint... I'd choose option A.
Pro-life people live in a magical dream world where you can make abortion illegal, eliminate welfare and teach kids to keep it in their pants until they're married and everyone will just wake up a responsible upstanding citizen the next morning.
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Old 10-06-2012, 18:32   #163
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Nobody's happily skipping off to the abortion clinic. It's a horrible choice for one to make, but one they should be free to make for themselves.
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Old 10-07-2012, 15:07   #164
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That has nothing to do with abortion. There are provisions in the current health care legislation that affords low cost or free prenatal screening, breast cancer exams, pap smears, etc... Romney's healthcare plan is supposed to eliminate those provisions. That's the context of the ecard was about.
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Old 10-07-2012, 15:48   #165
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Nobody's happily skipping off to the abortion clinic. It's a horrible choice for one to make, but one they should be free to make for themselves.
and PAY for themselves?
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Old 10-07-2012, 15:59   #166
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Nobody's happily skipping off to the abortion clinic. It's a horrible choice for one to make, but one they should be free to make for themselves.
Define "they", and under what circumstances "they" should be able to make that decision.

Should a 14 year-old minor be allowed to get an invasive medical procedure (abortion) done without their parent's consent or knowledge?

What about a healthy woman in her eighth month? Should she be free to get a partial birth abortion of a healthy, late-term, unborn child with full brainwave activity?

As they say, "The devil is in the details."
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Old 10-07-2012, 17:51   #167
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I didnt have an opinion on this until an old girlfriend aborted my child. i didnt find out til weeks later that she had even been pregnant.

i sometimes find myself lost in thought about what that child wouldve been like. i dont "miss" him but, i do feel a wierd emptiness when i think about it. especially now that i have another child.
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Old 10-07-2012, 18:23   #168
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
should a 14 year-old minor be allowed to get an invasive medical procedure (abortion) done without their parent's consent or knowledge?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
what about a healthy woman in her eighth month? Should she be free to get a partial birth abortion of a healthy, late-term, unborn child with full brainwave activity?
Yes.

Last edited by KalashniKEV; 10-07-2012 at 18:24..
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Old 10-07-2012, 18:49   #169
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It would make it much easier to vote Republican if they would give women the freedom to do as they choose with their bodies.
Are republicans telling women what to do with their bodies?
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Old 10-07-2012, 18:50   #170
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Yes.



Yes.
What if the guy doesn't want the baby? Maybe he can choose to abort it too? Without the mother's consent of course.
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Old 10-07-2012, 18:52   #171
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That has nothing to do with abortion. There are provisions in the current health care legislation that affords low cost or free prenatal screening, breast cancer exams, pap smears, etc... Romney's healthcare plan is supposed to eliminate those provisions. That's the context of the ecard was about.
What about men? Do they get free exams for prostate cancer etc? And if so, why wouldn't there be a card to say "vote like your man parts depend on it?"
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Old 10-07-2012, 18:59   #172
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Yes.



Yes.
So even though a 14 year-old can't legally vote, serve in the armed forces, drive or get so much as a tattoo without parental consent, in your mind they should be able legally get an invasive medical procedure done to themselves, a procedure that involves risks to both their physical and emotional health, without even informing the parents who are legally responsible for them, their safety and their actions in every other aspect of their lives?

Where is the ethical or moral consistancy in that?
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Old 10-07-2012, 20:48   #173
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
So even though a 14 year-old can't legally vote, serve in the armed forces, drive or get so much as a tattoo without parental consent, in your mind they should be able legally get an invasive medical procedure done to themselves, a procedure that involves risks to both their physical and emotional health, without even informing the parents who are legally responsible for them, their safety and their actions in every other aspect of their lives?

Where is the ethical or moral consistancy in that?
Forget moral and ethical, what about legal. They cannot consent for any other surgery. They cannot be operated on without the consent of a parent or guardian, absent an emergent situation. A pregnancy is not an emergent situation.

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Old 10-07-2012, 20:53   #174
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Forget moral and ethical, what about legal. They cannot consent for any other surgery. They cannot be operated on without the consent of a parent or guardian, absent an emergent situation. A pregnancy is not an emergent situation.
And yet it is legal in some states for minors to do just that.

In the name of "choice", some areas of the country have actually gone so far as to eliminate the judgement, life experience and maturity of two responsible parents and replace it with the decision making of a frightened minor on an irrevocable decision that will impact them emotionally, and possibly physically, for the rest of their lives.

Go figure...
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Old 10-07-2012, 21:20   #175
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Forget moral and ethical, what about legal. They cannot consent for any other surgery. They cannot be operated on without the consent of a parent or guardian, absent an emergent situation. A pregnancy is not an emergent situation.
Then they will get an illegal abortion. Just like they always have.
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