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Old 10-07-2012, 07:50   #21
Sgt127
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Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.
If what you say is true, its a pretty damaging argument against Glock. If, during a gunfight, I have to remember to "stand up straight, keep my butt tucked in, not wear gloves and keep a two handed, locked wrist grip on my Glock", its not really a gun I want to defend myself with.

The OP's technique looked fine to me, the gun should run without a problem, I've seen MUCH worse.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:57   #22
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Pretty good video! Very rare that you caught a failure in action.

(IMHO) If you cannot shoot with gloves, there is a real problem ... good luck in the winter or real engagement. Also, if you cannot shoot a "Combat" pistol in "ANY" position there is a serious issue with the gun (hold on Mr. Enemy I need to stand up and get in a proper position. )

Glock definately has changed the manufacturing procedure somewhere, but one would think that a test engineer (@ Glock) would have been all over it. Maybe Glock has joined the same apathetic engineering line that is molded by the bottom line as many companies have in the last decade.

Scary, for Glock.
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Old 10-07-2012, 07:58   #23
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If a Glock will not function properly because a shooter is wearing gloves or not standing up straight then maybe we know why the US military bought the M9.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:03   #24
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Originally Posted by FFR Spyder GT View Post
+1!




Yeah, but you're doing it wrong that's why you're getting BTF.

Ditch the gloves, stand up straight ( I've never understood the "Look at my butt, ain't it cute?" stance ) learn how to grip your Glock and the BTF problem will go away.

Thanks for posting the video because it clears shows what you are doing wrong.

Pretty simple.
So, as long as you:
1. Don't wear gloves.
2. Stand up straight.
3. Grip a Glock with the "Glock Perfection" grip...

...you won't get BTF.

Regardless of what you think about 1-3 above, 24 years of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF until now (with one noted exception). 900 rounds of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF with this very gun. It also somehow doesn't happen when I shoot my Gen 2 G20, Gen 4 G23, USP40, P9C, 1911, Colt Anaconda... (OK, so it's hard to get BTF with the last one unless you try)

Something changed that day, and if it was me, then jeez, what will happen if I'm ever staring down someone else's barrel again and have to take off my gloves (if I'm wearing any), stand up straight, and get that perfect grip to avoid getting hot brass in the eye. Do you really expect that all of the LEOs out there armed with Glocks will be able to produce this grip that you're talking about in a time of need?

I will post more video of me shooting that day without BTF with that very gun on my Facebook page for those who are interested and link here once its done.

ETA: Wow! It looks like a few of us had the same reaction and were posting at the same time.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:04   #25
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RG, at around 10:00 you have good video showing the true problem. Eratic ejection

The reason grip doesn't matter is because there is not some linear relationship of fast side equals right side, and slower slide equals straight up, and slow slide equal left ejection.

Instead, I believe it was English here on GT who pointed out the randomness of it. Something (unclear to any of us) is allowing the exracted brass to be loose and bouncing around on its way out. There has even been super slow motion video showing this. Most of the time bounce goes out to the right, but sometimes it bounces and goes out to your face. This almost like drooping an empty shell on the ground and seeing how it bounces. Most of the time it will lay down, but sometimes it will bounce in a way that stands the shell up when done.

The problem is, in theory, a bounce during ejection will by chance cause a stovepipe or other jam. But perhaps due to the overall design of the Glock, this does not seem to happen. Doesn't seem to be reported. I had 1 stovepipe in my first 20 rounds of my g4 17. Then no problems but some brass to the face in the first 200 rounds. Then very few, almost none, brass to the face in the next couple thousand rounds and current.

I have scrape marks on my brass near the open end, about the width of a pencil tip. Not dented much, but some. I have brass marks on the top right front of the ejection port (looking as you would point the gun forward), just inside the port (not on the outside of the slide).

So bouncing goes on with my gun's ejection. I would rate my ejection, and overall performance of the gun, as an A. Guess it'd be an A+ if no scrapes on the shell and no brass marks on the port.

My guess is something wore on your gun to make the ejection even more bouncy and eratic. If Win white box shells were made of abrassive material like a type of sandpaper, and you shot a couple boxes of them, and then your ejection got worse, and brass to the face started, that would make sense. I've never shot white box in mine.

While shells are not sandpaper, maybe some sort of wear has happened, and the bounce has gotten worse. Or maybe something happened to the recoil spring and slide speed changed. Grip changes slide speed, but usually not much. Maybe a big change (weakening through use, or other kind of change), in the recoil spring has changed slide speed more than grip. A light attached changes slide speed.

So either wear in the ejection parts, or a change in the slide speed, have created a bigger bounce in your ejection, and introduced even more randomness than there was before.

I get the sense the cost of the gun isn't much to you. So, leave Glock out of it. Play with the variables yourself. I challenge you in the name of backyard shooting science to see if you can fix the problem.

These are some variables to change one at a time (and then unchange to go on to the next variable). All the while shooting Lawman 124gr
-- clening the parts real good (let get dirty again to undo the change)
-- take the light off
-- new recoil spring
-- new extractor
-- new ejector.

Have faith in science, and that you can fix it. The gun is probably not possesed. The slide is probably ok, itself. The frame is probably ok. But other parts have worn and you can find out which one.


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Old 10-07-2012, 08:14   #26
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Any way you could get video from above the gun? I would love for someone on GT to nail this issue.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:17   #27
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The light was only on for WWB and only for one video clip. It was not on at any other time, though this is my wife's bedside gun and does need to run with the TLR2 in place.

I did have slomo of the ejection in the vid, and now that you mention it, the brass kinda comes out sideways. The same footage of my Gen 4 G23 that day shows the brass flipping end over end like you'd expect. I'll be sure to compare the two in my G23 vid that I hope to finish today (if the rain stops).

While I might be able to fix this with aftermarket parts, I do want to solve this with Glock factory parts. As you've gathered, it's not the cost- it's the principle of it. Also, in some small way, this might also serve as another data point for Glock in trying to fix this for everyone.

I don't buy the conspiracy that they don't care. They might be tired of dealing with it, and not everyone there might be empowered the way they want to do something, but I do think Glock wants this to end.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:21   #28
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Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker View Post
So, as long as you:
1. Don't wear gloves.
2. Stand up straight.
3. Grip a Glock with the "Glock Perfection" grip...

...you won't get BTF.

Regardless of what you think about 1-3 above, 24 years of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF until now (with one noted exception). 900 rounds of doing it wrong has not resulted in BTF with this very gun. It also somehow doesn't happen when I shoot my Gen 2 G20, Gen 4 G23, USP40, P9C, 1911, Colt Anaconda... (OK, so it's hard to get BTF with the last one unless you try)

Something changed that day, and if it was me, then jeez, what will happen if I'm ever staring down someone else's barrel again and have to take off my gloves (if I'm wearing any), stand up straight, and get that perfect grip to avoid getting hot brass in the eye. Do you really expect that all of the LEOs out there armed with Glocks will be able to produce this grip that you're talking about in a time of need?

I will post more video of me shooting that day without BTF with that very gun on my Facebook page for those who are interested and link here once its done.

ETA: Wow! It looks like a few of us had the same reaction and were posting at the same time.
It's not the way you are shooting some times it's just the gun.

I have and love shooting my Glocks,they function with any load I feed them with Perfection.
One thing all my Glocks have in common is they were all Produced prior to 12/2006,back when perfection was spelled with a capital P.
While I love my Glocks i'm not a fanboy,every company that has ever been or ever will be has had manufacturing problems .
The ones that address their problems and learn from them prosper,the ones that don't well they eventually fade away.
Glock should start taking this seriously if they don't they will loose whatever reputation they once had.
It's sad to watch a once great gun manufacturer ,that had the reputation for functioning no matter what go down hill.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:34   #29
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Correct RSA for the G17 and G19:

G17: 0-2-4 SPO # 8284
G19: 0-4-3 Part # 8703

He has the correct RSA for the G17/34.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:38   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker View Post

I don't buy the conspiracy that they don't care. They might be tired of dealing with it, and not everyone there might be empowered the way they want to do something, but I do think Glock wants this to end.
This is your thread so I am not here to argue with you. I do want to point out that I never said or implied there was any "conspiracy." If you want my opinion (which maybe you don't), if the upper management at Glock really wanted this issue fixed it would have been done by now. This has been going on too long. Glock no doubt has invested a lot of money in the Gen 4, and they may not be willing to scrap the new program in order to get back to the basics of the old Glock. Why wouldn't they just manufacture their guns they way they did in the Gen 2 or early gen 3 days? If you think about it....dollars and cents (or sense).

Like I said, I am not here to argue with you. As a matter of fact, I thought your video was informative and enjoyable. And if you really want to know what I think, I think you should send your video to Glock.
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:58   #31
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I definitely had Glock parts in mind, but with you doing the fixing, not them.

If you can't get the parts yourself, maybe a GT Glock armorer would hook you up.

I could be wrong, but in my mind it seems one stupid part has worn or somehow changed. As long as you took any science lab course in HS and spent at least part of the time paying attention and not staring at the cheerleader next to you, you can figure this out!

A multi-million dollar company might not be able to fix the problem, but you can. The Wright brothers, with the help of an employee who could make engines, built a plane to fly, so you can do this
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Old 10-07-2012, 08:59   #32
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Raleigh Glocker,

Excellent video!

One Question:

Have you tired the .40 extractor?

One Observation:

Steel extractors shouldn't wear significently in 1000 rounds. But I have seen springs die in a heartbeat. Was all your shooting in the video done with the same magazine? This looks to me like a magazine or RSA issue. There are lots of different springs involved in extraction.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:01   #33
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4949shooter, I didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. I wasn't at all, and I understand that it seems like a mystery that this whole thing hasn't already been worked out. The cost of scrapping the Gen 4 altogether might be a lot more than we realize, just like the extent to which most Gen 4 users actually end up shooting enough to have a problem might be lower than we realize.

I will certainly be mentioning the video when I speak with Glock. Everyone I've spoken with there (for other non-CS things) has been very helpful, and I don't expect anything different this time.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:05   #34
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Raleigh Glocker,

Excellent video!

One Question:

Have you tired the .40 extractor?

One Observation:

Steel extractors shouldn't wear significently in 1000 rounds. But I have seen springs die in a heartbeat. Was all your shooting in the video done with the same magazine? This looks to me like a magazine or RSA issue. There are lots of different springs involved in extraction.
Two different mags, both gave BTF.

I have not tried the 40 extractor- it definitely looks beefier than the 9mm extractor. Plus, though it is also MIM, it does not have the dip (October 2010 vintage).

The truth is that I love my G23 and I don't want to eff it up by putting its parts in the G17. It is my EDC, and I don't want it to go down by my own doing.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:07   #35
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Originally Posted by ithaca_deerslayer View Post
I definitely had Glock parts in mind, but with you doing the fixing, not them.

If you can't get the parts yourself, maybe a GT Glock armorer would hook you up.

I could be wrong, but in my mind it seems one stupid part has worn or somehow changed. As long as you took any science lab course in HS and spent at least part of the time paying attention and not staring at the cheerleader next to you, you can figure this out!

A multi-million dollar company might not be able to fix the problem, but you can. The Wright brothers, with the help of an employee who could make engines, built a plane to fly, so you can do this
Yep. I truly expected to see something amiss with the extractor, but I didn't. I will be taking hi-res photos of that and other parts later, comparing those to the ones in my Gen 4 G23. Maybe it will be apparent at that point.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:07   #36
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Anybody who has worked in an organization of any size is familiar with the concept of institutional inertia. Also groupthink. Twenty people in a room discussing something controversial and 5 of them are thinking, "This is BS, this isn't right, why won't anyone speak up?" But no one does.

Someone sat in a conference room at CocaCola and thought, "Man, this New Coke thing sounds really shaky, if the marketing guys are wrong, we are so screwed."

Glock almost certainly has the data to determine the cause of this problem. The question is, are they willing to examine it with an open mind and tell some project manager that some critical improvement on a part isn't working?
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:24   #37
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A. You're breaking your wrists when you are getting BTF. Plain as day to see.

B. lose the operator gloves as they are over the top for the pistol range

C. make shorter vids that are to the point.
What!

Listen, I've got more than 50 years of pistol shooting experience; the last ten of which I've been certified as a pistol training instructor. All I've got to do is stand at a 3/4 angle behind a shooter and watch him shoot for about 30 seconds. Thereafter, I know what that shooter can or can't do with a pistol; what he's doing right; and what he's doing wrong. (I’m even able to tell how well-coordinated a shooter is, and - depending upon the gunman’s personal attitude and personality - how tough, or easy it's going to be to bring him around!)

You are NOT limp-wristing (or, 'breaking') your wrist when you fire; and, yes, I'll agree that you've been shooting pistol for awhile, now. You're NOT new to the game. In fact, you have a tendency to slightly arc your pistol’s muzzle upward until you get warmed up; (So do I!) but then you straighten out; and I'm able to actually see the force of recoil passing through your elbows and terminating across your shoulders. (Not something you’ll see in an amateur pistol shooter.)

The accusation that you are breaking your wrist has been made by an, 'Internet gun expert' who would do better if he kept his opinions (or, at least, this particular opinion) to himself; but, hey, this is the Internet; people like him actually DO have, ‘a license’; and we, both, know that's never going to happen, anyway.

As for the gloves? They're your choice. From the look of your targets the gloves certainly aren't hurting your accuracy. Gloves, or a wrap-around rubber grip like I use on my Glocks can actually help certain people, under certain circumstances, to control a pistol better and shoot straighter. Personally, I don't care whether a shooter wears them, or not. In fact for most of my life I've worn half-finger gloves while shooting; and several observers have described my ability to use a rifle as either unreal or, 'frigg 'in surrealistic'. (Whatever that means?)

Your video is fine; and I thank you for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by packinaglock View Post
Good review, this is happening to quite a few people at the 800-1000 round mark. I'm starting to think Gaston pissed off a Gypsy a couple years back and she cursed him.
You’re funny!

Well, ........ I went through more than 3,000 rounds of Wal-Mart's, 'finest ammo' before this problem showed up! By the time I had over $1,300.00 invested in my G-19(RTF2), and was, 'committed' to the gun. Unlike Gaston Glock I have personal scruples against passing off a defective product on someone else; so, now that I know the gun has a problem, it's up to me to either get the problem solved or, 'eat' the pistol. (Maybe with some nice warm Wiener Schnitzel?)

My Glock, also, has a #2, ‘dipped’ extractor. Originally, this extractor was slightly oversized, (And NOW I know, 'Why'!) and required high quality SD ammo in order to function. I polished the flats in order to make it work more smoothly; and up to and just past the 3,000 round mark, everything was fine; but then, ……

I’ve now spent a couple of hundred dollars trying to figure this mechanical anomaly out. (Yes, I’ve been reading Randy Lee’s posts over on that other gun forum, too. I agree with much, but not all, of what Mr. Lee has to offer.) The extractor claw geometry is involved; so is even the slightest wear that occurs to the extractor, itself.

The focal point of this problem seems to be how tightly the cartridge head is held against the breech-face. Once the head starts slipping downward, voila, you’ve got a BTF problem! There are, also, secondary issues: Spring fatigue seems to occur in the SLB spring; and this weakens extraction/ejection, too. As another poster has pointed out: Anything that impedes the movement of the EDP rod is, also, going to weaken (or slow down) ejection. This is, ‘Why’ I believe both a Wolff Gunsprings, ‘extractor spring’ as well as the White Sound, ‘HRED’ plunger rod tend to improve faulty ejection; however, the principal problem continues to revolve around the sloppy geometry of the extractor, itself.

In your video all the, now, classic symptoms are present: High arcing, shortly thrown brass; right and left ejection, last round, ‘dribbles’; and genuinely dangerous ejected brass-to-the-face. I have my own strong suspicions as to, ‘Why’ these things are happening; but, I don’t feel like, ‘writing a book’ this morning.

Quickly, the extractor’s overall dimensions are too loose; the claw geometry is wrong; the sintered metal MIM compound is too soft, too imprecisely formed, and doesn’t wear anywhere near as well as it should; (How am I doing!) and certain Glock breech-faces are - ever so slightly - set back and allow extracted brass to slip downward more than others. (Yes, unfortunately, we’re discussing mechanical tolerances that are very small - Perhaps even measured in thousandths of an inch.)

Personally, I would NOT send your troublesome pistol back to Smyrna. I mean, exactly what do you expect that fine pack of duplicitous, ‘gun monkeys’ to do with your funky Glock? All you're going to get is a couple of new parts, that might work for awhile, and a brief note that says something like, 'Pistol is within specification'.



My suggestion would be to do THIS, instead:

(1) Make sure you have a #30274 or #28926 ejector in your Glock.

(2) If your problem Glock is a 9mm then use an; ‘HRED’ EDP Rod (Mine is highly polished.) or, regardless of whether you're using a 9mm or 40 caliber, get yourself some excellent Wolff Gunsprings’, ‘Extractor springs’.

3. Polish your factory-stock EDP rod so that it moves very smoothly inside the channel. (If your channel is rough you’re going to have to find a way to smooth out the interior diameter - It’s a nuisance; but it can be done.) Finally,

4. Do, indeed, order a new Apex Tactical extractor for your Glock. I’m still waiting on my Apex extractor; but after employing these other changes I’ve finally got my own funky Glock BTF problem 97 or 98% under control; and I’m getting comparatively low arcing, minimally adequate 3 to 4 foot, all right-side ejection, too. (I have never had a last round dribble problem with my G-19(RTF2); but I do concur that some Glocks NEED a round in the magazine in order to eject well).

Quote:
Originally Posted by faawrenchbndr View Post
Gabe,

A while back a few had luck with using a 40 S&W extractor.
How did that work out?
This is true; however, all a 40 caliber extractor did for me was to pinch the case heads too tightly against the breech-face. This expedient solution DOES hold the extracted case head more tightly against the breech; but it, also, causes other problems of its own.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:26   #38
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Anybody who has worked in an organization of any size is familiar with the concept of institutional inertia. Also groupthink. Twenty people in a room discussing something controversial and 5 of them are thinking, "This is BS, this isn't right, why won't anyone speak up?" But no one does.

Someone sat in a conference room at CocaCola and thought, "Man, this New Coke thing sounds really shaky, if the marketing guys are wrong, we are so screwed."

Glock almost certainly has the data to determine the cause of this problem. The question is, are they willing to examine it with an open mind and tell some project manager that some critical improvement on a part isn't working?
No doubt, just last week I was talking to my boss about a problem I brought up a year ago. Re-sent him emails from a year ago, and he added his perspective to it, and sent it up to another VP.

Somewheres higher up, people in charge make decisions about what is important to them regarding the organizational goals as they perceive them.

I have no trouble speaking up to my boss, but I don't go outside the chain of command (unless there was some criminal issue, then I would NOT Penn State it).

So some Glock engineer probably figured out the brass to the face problem a year ago, and told his boss. Right now the solution is probably sitting on some VP's desk. That VP may or may not understand it, may or may not care, may or may not tell anyone else about the fix, or maybe that VP discussed it in a room of other VP's and collectively they didn't act or they decided other priorities are more important.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:53   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raleigh Glocker View Post
4949shooter, I didn't mean to sound like I was singling you out. I wasn't at all, and I understand that it seems like a mystery that this whole thing hasn't already been worked out. The cost of scrapping the Gen 4 altogether might be a lot more than we realize, just like the extent to which most Gen 4 users actually end up shooting enough to have a problem might be lower than we realize.

I will certainly be mentioning the video when I speak with Glock. Everyone I've spoken with there (for other non-CS things) has been very helpful, and I don't expect anything different this time.
No worries my friend.

I hope you can get this issue resolved. I am sure many of us will be watching this thread to see how Glock handles the problem.
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Old 10-07-2012, 10:21   #40
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About sending it to Glock...

What I really should have said is that I was planning to call Glock and see what they'd be willing to send me. I don't need them to do the work.

That said, I want to see this fixed with Glock parts that Glock armorers say to use first. This is because that's what most Gen 4 users are going to do if they have problems. If I let them do their best and it still doesn't work, I'll go the aftermarket/home gunsmith way.

One important thing to note- this G17 has never failed in any way no matter what I put through it or how I held it. Heck, it even cycled and locked back fully submerged with two different types of ammo (done for a different video on my channel).

Yes, BTF is a problem that needs to be addressed, but this is still an extremely reliable design.
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