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Old 10-06-2012, 18:52   #41
The_Gun_Guru
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
I don't see where that would be very difficult, as either a choice or a skill.

Not sure exactly what you think the child has to lose, but her chances of surviving are better if she gets shot than if he gets away with her. How often do you see stranger-kidnapped children rescued hours or days later, compared to not?
The only problem with that is what if you shoot your child in a vital area such as an artery? If you live in BFE, then you just killed your child, and that would be worse than a stranger killing her!

Taking the shot is an absolute last resort......PERIOD!!!!!!


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Last edited by The_Gun_Guru; 10-06-2012 at 18:56..
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Old 10-06-2012, 18:57   #42
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I thought a lot about this scenario and decided I would chase him down and administer punishment he hadn't even dreamed of. Then I would answer for it
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Old 10-06-2012, 19:43   #43
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I'm with the "club him over the head with the shotgun" camp.
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Old 10-06-2012, 20:09   #44
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Originally Posted by The_Gun_Guru View Post
The only problem with that is what if you shoot your child in a vital area such as an artery? If you live in BFE, then you just killed your child, and that would be worse than a stranger killing her!

Taking the shot is an absolute last resort......PERIOD!!!!!!


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I disagree. A relatively quick death from a bullet wound beats days of rape and torture to a slow death. I know what I would pick for my child. No it's not a comfortable shot but not every choice is a fun one.

Last edited by boomhower; 10-06-2012 at 20:10..
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Old 10-06-2012, 20:30   #45
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Why do the AR guys think a shotgun is too much gun and takes years of pratice to use in a self defense situation but thay can whoop out their AR and shoot the BG right between the eyes.
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Old 10-06-2012, 20:45   #46
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I would probably take the shot, probably without giving the perp the advantage of a warning first, also.

A shotgun may not be the BEST tool for this exact scenario, but it is often the best tool for the unknown scenario, so is likely going to be a common gun to need to do the job.

Dragging/carrying a child changes the "exposed" mass. We still aim for the center of the exposed mass. A shotgun is still quite effective for shooting where the feet are in contact with the ground. Even skipping some pellets and debris off the ground is going to have an extreme psychological effect regardless of the damage it may or may not do.

I'm in the camp that will take the shot. If I was the child, I'd damn sure prefer it, too.
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Old 10-06-2012, 21:51   #47
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Shooting the kidnapper while he is holding the child is probably about as dangerous as letting the kidnapper leave intact with the child. Sadly the survival rate of the child goes downhill substantially either way. The shotgun may not be the ideal choice.
Do NOT let the child go!!!!!!!

IF he does not comply and runs then you have a few options.

Perp will not go far with shot to the feet. Buckshot or bird shot. Aim low=very low. Even if not hit he will probably drop the child at the shot.

If you have patterened the shotgun and know where it hits and what the shot dispersion is then a very high shot (i.e. top of the head) is also possible if he is stationary and in the process of trying to kill the child. I patterned an old Mossberg 12 ga many years ago with a long barrel and a fixed mod choke. It was my only long gun at the time and was kept for home defense. At 25yards measured it would place all 9 pellets from my OO buck shot within a 5 inch circle. I was suprised at how tight and consistant the pattern was. it was also right on for the sights as well.

That shotgun was put to use once (with #6 shot) when someone was trying to gain entry to attack my wife a few minutes before I arrived home from work. Perp was not shot or found (not for lack of trying to track the bastard, police were 30min away back then) but he never returned or showed up at the hospital with birdshot wounds. Hope he wet himself when he stumbled through the cornfields!

Lived way out in the country back then when people took care of things locally.

Last edited by Wurger; 10-06-2012 at 21:55..
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Old 10-06-2012, 21:53   #48
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Originally Posted by mac702 View Post
i would probably take the shot, probably without giving the perp the advantage of a warning first, also.

A shotgun may not be the best tool for this exact scenario, but it is often the best tool for the unknown scenario, so is likely going to be a common gun to need to do the job.

Dragging/carrying a child changes the "exposed" mass. We still aim for the center of the exposed mass. A shotgun is still quite effective for shooting where the feet are in contact with the ground. Even skipping some pellets and debris off the ground is going to have an extreme psychological effect regardless of the damage it may or may not do.

I'm in the camp that will take the shot. If i was the child, i'd damn sure prefer it, too.
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Old 10-06-2012, 21:59   #49
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I may or may not have shot him but after I got my child back I would have beaten him half to death if I didn't shoot him.
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Old 10-06-2012, 22:06   #50
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Originally Posted by The_Gun_Guru View Post
The only problem with that is what if you shoot your child in a vital area such as an artery? If you live in BFE, then you just killed your child, and that would be worse than a stranger killing her!

Taking the shot is an absolute last resort......PERIOD!!!!!!


TGG
So letting the perp rape, torture and kill your child would make you feel better than taking the chance of stopping her attacker with a low probability of injuring/killing her in the attempt?

That is the kind of thing I can see someone jumping off a bridge for in the aftermath, if he had just let them go because he didn't have the ideal shot.

Last edited by Wurger; 10-06-2012 at 22:12..
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Old 10-06-2012, 23:05   #51
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I'm a shooter. A well placed round at the base of the neck or back of the head will resolve the problem without injuring the child, beyond a few cuts and scrapes due to being dropped. My weapon of choice is a handgun or rifle. I'm pretty good with my ccw. If it turned into a physical fight, that guy will likely lose. I've got more weight than most people (310 lbs right now). I run 6 miles per day 3 times a week, and I lift 3 times a week for 1-2 hours each day.
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Old 10-07-2012, 00:36   #52
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Taking the shot is always the last resort. But, like Clint Smith says, two in the gun *NOW* is better than a full load *MAYBE* (later). Of course this was in response to performing a tactical reload, but the moral of the story is the best tool for the job is the one at hand. If all you have at hand is a rubber chicken, it may be the best tool you have to dispatch the fool.

I do like the idea of aiming low to take out the legs with a shotgun.

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Old 10-07-2012, 08:12   #53
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I would catch up with the guy and hit him with the barrel or stock from behind over the head.
Multiple times until he drops and lets go of the child.
I would avoid shooting him specially if he ran away (without the child now)!
It would not be self defense at this time and hard to defend in court!
Really? Is that the law in the state you live in, or do you just think it is?

In most states, like here in KY, this is a perfectly clear deadly force situation and would be easier to justify in court than having the guy break into your house and point a gun at you (aside from the fact that you wouldn't have to go to court here, because arresting or prosecuting you would be illegal). I'd be very surprised if there is a state that doesn't allow deadly force to prevent kidnapping.

I'm pretty sure no state limits deadly force to just "self defense."
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:12   #54
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you don't have to be physically fit to run after someone carrying a child.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:16   #55
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So...I was talking with a like minded friend on Facebook. I've been meeting like an unbelievable amount of VERY pro gun people on FB lately, so much so that I haven't even been in gun forums much. But anyway, me and these folks were sitting around talking about how much we just don't give a damn what the anti gunners say about us having guns to protect ourselves with, or what laws they get passed. There are bad people in this world, and if it is between us and them, or them and a member of our family, they're going on a one way trip....to wherever land.

And I told the lady about a close call I had in the city I live in (not the only one), and said I live in a major city and that's just how it is in the big city, things happen, you have to watch your back, and be prepared because life around here is anything but predictable. Then I said but it doesn't matter..because bad things can happen literally any time, any place, regardless of location, population size, or gun laws.

So she told me that a few years ago, one of her girlfriends who lives down the street (in a VERY small town, and rural area), was in the bathroom of her house or something, and her little girl was in the living room. Well out of nowhere some piece of garbage in human form busts through her backdoor, grabs her small daughter, and takes off running out of the house with her. Well....momma had a shotgun.

She ran out after the fool and told him if he didn't put her girl down he was going bye bye. Needless to say, the guy was convinced. He put her down.

I told her at first...ya know....if a shotgun is all you have, and a kidnapper (pedophile obviously, and would be child rapist/killer) has your child....do what you gotta do, but truthfully a shotgun might not be the best weapon for that scenario, because of the danger of stray pellets hitting the little girl if she had to shoot. I told her a revolver or semi might be best.

Then I stopped and was like...ya know, on 2nd thought...maybe a shotgun would be PERFECT for a scenario like that....if you shoot at their legs, made SURE you aim low. Then you'd DEFINITELY hit the fool, and not endanger the child.

So we pondered on that for a bit and I decided this would be the best place to get a general consensus on the best weapon for that type of nightmare scenario. Because I don't know about you guys, but I have at a pretty close reach a shotgun, a 9mm and maybe even a 357 magnum. But maybe not..who knows?

Anyway....I'd like to hear what most people say about this, because that is an interesting question, that obviously I pray nobody has to experience, but it might be helpful to just prepare for the worst, yet hope for the best.
Keep the shotgun, aim low and blow his foot off. Unless your some distance away the pellets will not expand into a wide pattern. Big plus is his reaction to the 12G being racked.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:20   #56
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I don't know how this woman managed to catch up with the guy, but if you're asking what I would do, I think a shotgun would do just fine. Either I wouldn't be able to catch up with him, in which case I wouldn't fire ANY weapon, or I'd run right up to him and shoot very low. I'd much rather risk hitting my child in the foot (not likely unless the child's as tall as the kidnapper) vs letting the guy escape with my child. I'm not prescribing this for anyone else, every situation's different, blah blah blah
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:12   #57
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Originally Posted by Bren View Post
Really? Is that the law in the state you live in, or do you just think it is?

In most states, like here in KY, this is a perfectly clear deadly force situation and would be easier to justify in court than having the guy break into your house and point a gun at you (aside from the fact that you wouldn't have to go to court here, because arresting or prosecuting you would be illegal). I'd be very surprised if there is a state that doesn't allow deadly force to prevent kidnapping.

I'm pretty sure no state limits deadly force to just "self defense."
Of course laws are different from state to state.
You can read at least Maine law here:
http://www.mainelegislature.org/legi...7-asec104.html
You need to read and scroll up to 108.A.2. where it comes to kidnapping.
The key points are:
1. Even if this started in a home, by the time anyone catches up with the kidnapper it would be most likely on public ground.
2. The Maine law at least requires a "reasonably" response.
What would be safer and more reasonably?
a) Shooting at the guy and endanger the child and other bystanders?
b) Using the shot gun to hit the kidnapper?
3. Once you hit (with the shotgun or you trip him) the kidnapper and he lets go of the child, the kidnapping is over.
Therefore you have no right to use deadly force.
4. At this point a non LE person has the right to citizen arrest.
However a non LE person can not use deadly force as a method of arrest in public.
If the guy runs after dropping the child, shooting him then could result in prosecution of the mother.

Now as a side note, this is the law.
There are many laws I personally don't like!
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:44   #58
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you don't have to be physically fit to run after someone carrying a child.
No, you just have to be faster, or able to out run them. Both of which require some sort of physical fitness.
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Old 10-07-2012, 14:49   #59
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Really? Is that the law in the state you live in, or do you just think it is?

In most states, like here in KY, this is a perfectly clear deadly force situation and would be easier to justify in court than having the guy break into your house and point a gun at you (aside from the fact that you wouldn't have to go to court here, because arresting or prosecuting you would be illegal). I'd be very surprised if there is a state that doesn't allow deadly force to prevent kidnapping.

I'm pretty sure no state limits deadly force to just "self defense."
What about civil immunity? In Utah and Virginia it is perfectly fine to shoot this guy as he is running away with your child, and you don't need to worry about criminal prosecution. However, in Virginia you can be sued civilly by him or his family. In Utah, because the guy was violating the law and it was legal to shoot the guy, you cannot be sued.
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Old 10-07-2012, 17:07   #60
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1) Breaching
2) Non-lethal applications
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