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Old 10-06-2012, 10:22   #76
ilgunguygt
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Originally Posted by INJoker View Post

The point of the data I provided is to illustrate that a 20-year-old kid with a 2-year Associate's Degree in Nursing will make more in his/her first year of full-time employment than the average Indiana public school teacher will after his/her 20th year of service with a Bachelor's degree - the minimum degree level required to teach in Indiana.

.
Yeah, but this is about the chicago teachers. They were already overpaid!!!

Like I said earlier in this thread, those teachers already made more than TWICE what the teachers make in the rest of the state. While making TWICE as much money they have LESS THAN HALF as many students per teacher.

While you may feel sorry for them, no one else here in IL does. There was ZERO sympathy for them here in downstate IL, even with the union teachers we have. In fact, there was a lot of anger when some of them found out that after 5 years they were making 30K a year and those teachers were making about 75K with the same experience, and wanted a 17% raise, all the while having a 10:1 student to teacher ratio.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:46   #77
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See, here is the problem. You honestly believe that there is equivalence.

Again, A masters of education is the running joke of the graduate degree world. That is not my joke. It just is. It is generally considered among the easiest to obtain graduate degrees.

An MBA is not.

I am not sure why you are planting your flag on this hill but oh well.
Speaking of jokes in universities, my brother in law told me about a feud between physics and engineering. Aparently he said the engineers do not think physics is a real science. Naturally the physics geeks think otherwise.

It took me by surprise but then he explained the engineer's reasoning and it kind of made sense.

Everywhere you go there are people measuring their Johnsons and comparing notes.
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I wonder if your assessment of "The Wizard of Oz" would sound something like "A teenaged orphan runs away with three psychotic AD/HD patients and a little dog. She kills the first two women she meets." --Sinecure 07/03/2006
Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:49   #78
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Speaking of jokes in universities, my brother in law told me about a feud between physics and engineering. Aparently he said the engineers do not think physics is a real science. Naturally the physics geeks think otherwise.

It took me by surprise but then he explained the engineer's reasoning and it kind of made sense.

Everywhere you go there are people measuring their Johnsons and comparing notes.
Outside of being jovial, there is no real engineer that thinks physics is not a "real science"

Either you didnt understand the conversation or didnt get the sarcasm. It is that simple.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:06   #79
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
Speaking of jokes in universities, my brother in law told me about a feud between physics and engineering. Aparently he said the engineers do not think physics is a real science. Naturally the physics geeks think otherwise.

It took me by surprise but then he explained the engineer's reasoning and it kind of made sense.

Everywhere you go there are people measuring their Johnsons and comparing notes.
Physics is a real science. Engineering is applied science.


Fundamentally, all science is physics. At any university is is among the most challenging of fields.
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Old 10-06-2012, 14:49   #80
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Imagine if the narrative of the Chicago Public School teachers' strike had been "Give us the 17% raise we asked for, and we'll double the number of kids graduating high school reading at their grade level" or "we'll cut the dropout rate by 50%."

Imagine a real negotiation, instead of a bunch of people demanding more just because "they deserve it."
Not possible. You cannot teach those unable or unwilling to learn no matter how much money you spend.

First, teachers need to dress in a professional way for professional pay.

Second, we need to turn the tables; make a public education a privilege not an obligation.

Test out the kids early on and send those with low aptitude to trade school.

Anyone with a bad attitude gets banned from school completely to prevent disruptions in the classroom.

The age of reason is 7 not 18.
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Old 10-06-2012, 15:30   #81
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Outside of being jovial, there is no real engineer that thinks physics is not a "real science"

Either you didnt understand the conversation or didnt get the sarcasm. It is that simple.
I at first thought it was a joke and my brother in law said that they were in fact serious about it. I did not grill him on it because I did not really care that much other than, "Gee, that's interesting."

Apparently the gripe that engineers have with physics people is the lack of a product so to speak. Much of it is theoretical and intangible.

For instance. The big bang theory. It is a theory. Whereas an engineer can say look at what I built.

As to where he heard it and why I suppose I could ask him but I do not care. My guess is that in these tight budget times each discipline on campus is looking to get their slice of the ever shrinking budget. The engineering deparment may have wanted to boot the physics department out of the science department. Or they wanted to get my brother in law to drop physics classes in favor of theirs.

I believe my brother in law because he has been duking it out with the swells of college campuses for 15 years or so on three big campuses. When I was an undergrad I knew there were big egos to be fed on campus but it was not until my brother in law told me what goes on behind the curtain that I realized the level of pettiness and drama.

I also beleive it because everybody thinks or wants their Johnson to be bigger than the next guy's. If not the biggest then theirs is the best. Most people, including very smart people, have not matured beyond 8th or 9th grade. Take a look around here. I have seen people here argue the following degrees are the hardest: law, medicine, physics, engineering, CS, IT, education, and accounting. They all can't be right, yet they insist they are.
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Old 10-06-2012, 15:39   #82
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Originally Posted by CAcop View Post
I at first thought it was a joke and my brother in law said that they were in fact serious about it. I did not grill him on it because I did not really care that much other than, "Gee, that's interesting."

Apparently the gripe that engineers have with physics people is the lack of a product so to speak. Much of it is theoretical and intangible.

For instance. The big bang theory. It is a theory. Whereas an engineer can say look at what I built.

As to where he heard it and why I suppose I could ask him but I do not care. My guess is that in these tight budget times each discipline on campus is looking to get their slice of the ever shrinking budget. The engineering deparment may have wanted to boot the physics department out of the science department. Or they wanted to get my brother in law to drop physics classes in favor of theirs.

I believe my brother in law because he has been duking it out with the swells of college campuses for 15 years or so on three big campuses. When I was an undergrad I knew there were big egos to be fed on campus but it was not until my brother in law told me what goes on behind the curtain that I realized the level of pettiness and drama.

I also beleive it because everybody thinks or wants their Johnson to be bigger than the next guy's. If not the biggest then theirs is the best. Most people, including very smart people, have not matured beyond 8th or 9th grade. Take a look around here. I have seen people here argue the following degrees are the hardest: law, medicine, physics, engineering, CS, IT, education, and accounting. They all can't be right, yet they insist they are.
No, there is no way to be kind about this. You dont know what you are talking about or again, you didnt understand the conversation.

There is nothing you can say, there is no argument that can overcome that at this point. What you just posted is nonsense. You dont know what the word "science" means.

To put it into context, what you have done here in this thread, is similar to reading a book in a language you dont understand, at all, then insisting on what the book was about to someone who actually knows that language.
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Old 10-06-2012, 16:04   #83
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The way to negotiate with public school teachers is by switching some subjects to internet teaching.

All professions have been turned upside down by the internet, why not public school teachers?

1 Indian in Bangalore could teach our entire student body Calculus 1. It is all about efficiency.

Public schools are ripe for an internet takeover.
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Old 10-06-2012, 17:04   #84
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No, there is no way to be kind about this. You dont know what you are talking about or again, you didnt understand the conversation.

There is nothing you can say, there is no argument that can overcome that at this point. What you just posted is nonsense. You dont know what the word "science" means.

To put it into context, what you have done here in this thread, is similar to reading a book in a language you dont understand, at all, then insisting on what the book was about to someone who actually knows that language.
Ok, whatever you say. I was pretty blunt with my brother in law about how I always thought of physics being a science. He explained to me the position of the engineers. I didn't really care since I am not an engineer or a physist therefore I do not have a dog in this fight. My brother in law I suspect didn't really care either since he has to help the chancellor keep the school running and not get involved in pissing contests except to tell people to knock it off.

Maybe my brother in law did not get that it was a joke and passed it onto me. He is one of those guys running numbers all day and forgets that there is more to life than numbers.

Rabbi if you want to be a dick about it go ahead. I really could care less what you think of me. No wonder your first wife left you.
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Old 10-06-2012, 17:37   #85
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Ok, whatever you say. I was pretty blunt with my brother in law about how I always thought of physics being a science. He explained to me the position of the engineers. I didn't really care since I am not an engineer or a physist therefore I do not have a dog in this fight. My brother in law I suspect didn't really care either since he has to help the chancellor keep the school running and not get involved in pissing contests except to tell people to knock it off.

Maybe my brother in law did not get that it was a joke and passed it onto me. He is one of those guys running numbers all day and forgets that there is more to life than numbers.

Rabbi if you want to be a dick about it go ahead. I really could care less what you think of me. No wonder your first wife left you.
1. In spite of your feelings, you are still wrong, and so is anyone who told you what you are passing on. If you would like to be right, I tried it nice, and you still didnt get it. You asserted your wrongness again.

2. My first wife did not "leave me." It was a very mutual split. I have been honest about mistakes I made, dont confuse that with "left me." However, I must have really hurt your feelings for you to lash out like that. How old are you? Do you feel like I stuffed you in a school locker or gave you a swirley?


Youre a cop. I assume you have worked patrol. Did you (of course, it is common) see someone, with your own eyes, do something that you have a lot of training to know is against the law?...then when you confront them about it, they lie to you or tell you someone said it was OK, start dropping names...or worse, start talking BS about what the law is?

You are being that guy about this subject.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon

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Old 10-06-2012, 18:48   #86
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1. In spite of your feelings, you are still wrong, and so is anyone who told you what you are passing on. If you would like to be right, I tried it nice, and you still didnt get it. You asserted your wrongness again.

2. My first wife did not "leave me." It was a very mutual split. I have been honest about mistakes I made, dont confuse that with "left me." However, I must have really hurt your feelings for you to lash out like that. How old are you? Do you feel like I stuffed you in a school locker or gave you a swirley?


Youre a cop. I assume you have worked patrol. Did you (of course, it is common) see someone, with your own eyes, do something that you have a lot of training to know is against the law?...then when you confront them about it, they lie to you or tell you someone said it was OK, start dropping names...or worse, start talking BS about what the law is?

You are being that guy about this subject.
Just passing on a story my brother in law told me. He is in a position to know. I trust him because I know him personally. I do not know you.
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Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 10-06-2012, 18:55   #87
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Just passing on a story my brother in law told me. He is in a position to know. I trust him because I know him personally. I do not know you.
He is wrong and you dont know any better (or again, you did not understand the conversation)

Outside of an anomaly, there are no real engineers who would not consider physics a science. To even think that is a possibilty is like asserting 1+1=puppy.

That is what you are asserting. It is that egregious. In frank terms it is bold stupidity. From the sounds of your story, you have taken the wizzing match between the physics department and the engineering department at a college, that has been filtered through the eyes of an administrator to mean something it doesnt. You are wrong. There is no middle ground.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 10-06-2012, 21:31   #88
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He is wrong and you dont know any better (or again, you did not understand the conversation)

Outside of an anomaly, there are no real engineers who would not consider physics a science. To even think that is a possibilty is like asserting 1+1=puppy.

That is what you are asserting. It is that egregious. In frank terms it is bold stupidity. From the sounds of your story, you have taken the wizzing match between the physics department and the engineering department at a college, that has been filtered through the eyes of an administrator to mean something it doesnt. You are wrong. There is no middle ground.
Had I known I was going to have to write a report a couple of weeks after the fact I would have taken notes. Here is the conversation as I remember it.

I was essentially making small talk with my brother in law asking how his relatively new job has been going. I asked him because his old job was essentially the same thing but over time they added on a second department under him. Admissions and Registrar is a bit much.

He said things were going well he was just having to deal with some egos.

I responded with, "Pretty much the same as before. Are budget cuts the problem?" I asked him this because at his last two universities that was a huge part of his problems.

He said budgeting wasn't a problem at this school. (I had heard that before from my sister about this school but I wanted to hear it from him.) He said it was just egos.

I asked him for an example and then he got my attention with, "The engineering department doesn't think physics is a real science."

This got my attention because I had always thought of physics as being a science. I pretty much said, "What do you mean it isn't a science?"

He replied "Engineers don't think physics is a scinece because it is theoretical and engineering is tangible."

I said, "You mean like the Big Bang Theory vs. designing a bridge?"

He said, "Exactly."

We then moved onto lighter topics like his commute to and from work or something else completely forgetable. Had I known I was going to get grilled I would have asked him who told him this, when, why, etc. For all I know the head of the engineering department might hold a grudge against the head of the physics department.

That conversation seems pretty simple and straightforward to me. If you have a problem with it take it up with my brother in law, not me. He has 15 years as the registrar or admissions or both at three universities in CA. Smallest 25,000 and the largest 39,000. Prior to that he was the student trustee for the CSU system as an undergrad. Until you can match his credentials or tell me where he is wrong, FOAD.
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Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 10-06-2012, 22:00   #89
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My physics professor was a geophysicist. I have a handful of geologists in my family. One day I asked him what was the difference between a geologist and a geophysicist. He paused in the very deep, reflectful way he was known for and said, "They do it very well."

I suspect CACop's convo was along those lines.
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Old 10-06-2012, 22:47   #90
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I at first thought it was a joke and my brother in law said that they were in fact serious about it.
There does not exist a single engineer on the surface of the entire planet who honestly believes that physics is not a "real" science. Not one.

Engineering and physics are so similar that many of the courses are actually cross-listed.
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Old 10-07-2012, 00:00   #91
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Had I known I was going to have to write a report a couple of weeks after the fact I would have taken notes. Here is the conversation as I remember it.

I was essentially making small talk with my brother in law asking how his relatively new job has been going. I asked him because his old job was essentially the same thing but over time they added on a second department under him. Admissions and Registrar is a bit much.

He said things were going well he was just having to deal with some egos.

I responded with, "Pretty much the same as before. Are budget cuts the problem?" I asked him this because at his last two universities that was a huge part of his problems.

He said budgeting wasn't a problem at this school. (I had heard that before from my sister about this school but I wanted to hear it from him.) He said it was just egos.

I asked him for an example and then he got my attention with, "The engineering department doesn't think physics is a real science."

This got my attention because I had always thought of physics as being a science. I pretty much said, "What do you mean it isn't a science?"

He replied "Engineers don't think physics is a scinece because it is theoretical and engineering is tangible."

I said, "You mean like the Big Bang Theory vs. designing a bridge?"

He said, "Exactly."

We then moved onto lighter topics like his commute to and from work or something else completely forgetable. Had I known I was going to get grilled I would have asked him who told him this, when, why, etc. For all I know the head of the engineering department might hold a grudge against the head of the physics department.

That conversation seems pretty simple and straightforward to me. If you have a problem with it take it up with my brother in law, not me. He has 15 years as the registrar or admissions or both at three universities in CA. Smallest 25,000 and the largest 39,000. Prior to that he was the student trustee for the CSU system as an undergrad. Until you can match his credentials or tell me where he is wrong, FOAD.

Your brother in law is an idiot then...and HE didnt understand the situation.

...and you still dont.

I dont know how else to get the point across to you. With each post, you only assure everyone that you dont have the slightest clue. Again, you are speaking a language you dont understand and relating information from someone who did not speak that language either....To me, and I speak that language.

You are hanging your hat on what a non engineer or physicist said about engineers and physicists. You are a blithering idiot.

Oh, and BTW, my creds in physics and engineering are better than his. He has none. I have a collection.
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Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon

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Old 10-07-2012, 00:40   #92
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But teachers:

1. Work harder than you do.
2. Buy all the supplies for the school.
3. Teach criminals.
4. Teach kids whose parents are criminals.
5. Teach in a war zone.
6. Teach kids who don't want to learn.
7. Teach kids who have parents who don't care.
8. Work all through the summer.
9. Grade papers at night.
Fire the all. It's not like there would be any change in the quality of education either way.

I'd be willing to bet that if we had some non-union teachers, things would be alot different and the kids would actually learn something.

Just sayin....
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Old 10-07-2012, 00:40   #93
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Union whiners gonna whine.

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Old 10-07-2012, 00:46   #94
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Boo Hoo! Boo Hoo!


I'm in a union. I want something for nothing. Boo Hoo! I want $30 an hour to do a $15 per hour job. Boo Hoo! I want fifty weeks of vacation per year, I want cumulative sick and personal days on top of it all, I want all my medical paid for, I want, I want, I want. I dont' care what it does to the people that are paying for it. Boo Hoo!

I don't care if it's not sustainable, but I want, I want, I want and I vote for whatever person that comes along with a D in front of their name just because I want and I don't want to actually work hard for my pay.

I don't care about doing my job properly. I don't care about your children, I don't care if I slack. Who's gonna hold me accountable? I'm in a union. You can't touch me. I can do whatever I want because the union protects slackers like me. Just try and get me fired. You won't win. If anyone tries, they will just be wasting their time because I have all the taxpayer money in the world to buy me a union funded attorney and drag it out in court.

Aren't unions wonderful!




NOPE!

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Old 10-07-2012, 11:44   #95
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How did this thread derail into taking jabs at ex-wives and insulting brothers?
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:21   #96
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How did this thread derail into taking jabs at ex-wives and insulting brothers?
I am not worried about people insulting me. The truth is, his statements are factually incorrect.

He may be telling the truth that his brother in law said those things...but it is still utter nonsense.

It is similar to someone saying the Pope is not Catholic. Yes, it is that insane a comment. If I was that wrong about something, and getting even louder about being that wrong, I would hope someone would stop me from making such a fool out of myself.

This is not a "grey" issue. This is not Rabbi forcing his opinion on people. This is a very binary issue. It is impossible for an engineer to not recognize physics as science. To say so would be similar to claiming the word "hat" is not a word. (as you say it and spell it out while providing a functional definition of the word "hat.")
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Last edited by Rabbi; 10-07-2012 at 12:26..
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:59   #97
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Originally Posted by Rabbi View Post
I am not worried about people insulting me. The truth is, his statements are factually incorrect.

He may be telling the truth that his brother in law said those things...but it is still utter nonsense.

It is similar to someone saying the Pope is not Catholic. Yes, it is that insane a comment. If I was that wrong about something, and getting even louder about being that wrong, I would hope someone would stop me from making such a fool out of myself.

This is not a "grey" issue. This is not Rabbi forcing his opinion on people. This is a very binary issue. It is impossible for an engineer to not recognize physics as science. To say so would be similar to claiming the word "hat" is not a word. (as you say it and spell it out while providing a functional definition of the word "hat.")
I find it interesting that you are wholeheartedly backing up your profession when some teachers were doing the same in this thread.

Perhaps some misconceptions in education as there are in engineering, eh?
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Last edited by DWavs; 10-07-2012 at 13:00..
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Old 10-07-2012, 18:08   #98
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Originally Posted by DWavs View Post
I find it interesting that you are wholeheartedly backing up your profession when some teachers were doing the same in this thread.

Perhaps some misconceptions in education as there are in engineering, eh?
No, you dont understand the issue either obviously.

This has nothing to do with feelings or emotion. This is an absolute issue. You cant make it into something else. You either understand it or you dont.
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In the world to come, each of us will be called to account for all the good things G-d put on earth which we refused to enjoy. ~ The Babylonian Talmud

Whenever you get mad as hell about it all, grab your rifle and head outside. If you are the only one there...it's not time yet

I cross my heart and hope not to die. Swallow evil, ride the sky. Lose myself in a crowded room. You fool, you fool, it will be here soon
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Old 10-08-2012, 06:31   #99
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Well, you quoted an entire tongue-in-cheek post and agreed with it... you not only "listened" to bull****, you swallowed it whole.




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