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Old 10-06-2012, 10:04   #76
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Originally Posted by DanaT View Post
And lets make the 46% that pay no federal income tax pay up at a 28% rate also.

No-one one should be exempted from paying taxes.
Are you kidding about exemption from paying tax? Then welcome to the right side! Start with the corporations and the wealth who have parked trillions of dollars overseas and in the little islands south of the U.S. to avoid paying their taxes! Start with them... then you'll have so basis to talk about taxing. Until then, you and your type whining about the 47% are just blowing in the wind.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:08   #77
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Are you kidding about exemption from paying tax? Then welcome to the right side! Start with the corporations and the wealth who have parked trillions of dollars overseas and in the little islands south of the U.S. to avoid paying their taxes! Start with them... then you'll have so basis to talk about taxing. Until then, you and your type whining about the 47% are just blowing in the wind.
I will let you in on a little secret...well not so much of a secret....my banking is done through a Swiss bank...

so yeah. I want that 46% to pay their taxes.

The money that is not in the USA was NOT EARNED IN THE USA. It is not the peoples money. If I have $20 in my pocket I dont have to spend it. I can "park" my money if I want.

Its my money.

I cant even believe I am responding to such a fool. I wish you worked for me. I would fire you on principal.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:20   #78
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[QUOTE=DanaT;19490692]Contracts are broken and modified all the time without bankruptcy. And your point?

Let me give you common examples. Repossession of cars. Foreclosure on property. Evictions due to non-payment of rent. Airline tickets (i.e. you had a contract to get you from point a to point b in a certain class of service on a certain day at a certain time..yet that contract is often broken). There is a legal process that must be followed. So with regard to pensioners, the city/country/state can not simply do as it pleases. This ain’t eastern airlines.

Many many contracts are broken or modified without bankruptcy. In fact, most times parties prefer this because there are more losers in bankruptcy. Losers? SO what? If the pensioners are to lose... let everyone loose everything. No reason the pensioners should have to soak it up on behalf of anyone else.

I have yet to see a case where someone who didnt enter into the contract has to pay bills for the contract in bankruptcy. All you need is a judge... a creative judge. Why... one just managed to shove nationalized healthcare up the nose of America by declaring a mandate a tax. Imagine that? And... he was appointed by a republican. Gee! Looks like when it comes to the law, all you need is the right kind of judge and you can make the law say anything you want it to say. Who’d of thought it?

In general if state X doesn’t have the money to pay their pension obligations ONLY state X should be required to make it right. There was no representation with the contract from the other 49 states. If the other 49 states were not involved in making the contract, no way on gods green earth should the be liable for payment. To tweak a line from William Munny, “Should hasn’t got anything to do with it.”

This is like me making a deal on a shiny nee ferrari and then not being able to pay for it. The deal was bewteen the ferrari dealer, the bank, and myself. But, when when I file bankruptcy, the bank wants their money so they get the court to say CACop and BruceV are responsible for the money owed on the ferrari but I get to keep the ferrari. Why don’t you trot yourself down to the local dealership... and float the loan... and buy the car. Then... dump on paying. Let your wife try to tell them that they can’t take your house... etc. because the house also belongs to her and she didn’t buy the car... or whatever it was you wanted. You’ll probably sleep on the couch on the sidewalk while the house goes away at auction, and your wife will probably divorce you, but what’s that to the bank and the dealership. They’ll get whatever they can out of you, regardless of how it impacts anyone else.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:23   #79
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Brucev and liberal progressives like him, they just love TAX
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:26   #80
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Are you kidding about exemption from paying tax? Then welcome to the right side! Start with the corporations and the wealth who have parked trillions of dollars overseas and in the little islands south of the U.S. to avoid paying their taxes! Start with them... then you'll have so basis to talk about taxing. Until then, you and your type whining about the 47% are just blowing in the wind.
You know corporations don't pay taxes right? Consumers do.

Why should us consumers pay taxes for business transacted in a foreign country?
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:27   #81
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[QUOTE=DanaT;19490740]I will let you in on a little secret...well not so much of a secret....my banking is done through a Swiss bank... Could not care less where you do your banking. Your a U.S. citizen. You should be taxed just like you lived in the domestic U.S. I say tax you up the wazo... and if you don't like it, you can simply give up your U.S. citizenship and go somewhere else. It's no loss to the U.S.

so yeah. I want that 46% to pay their taxes. Your wants won't hurt you!

The money that is not in the USA was NOT EARNED IN THE USA. It is not the peoples money. If I have $20 in my pocket I dont have to spend it. I can "park" my money if I want. Could not care less where the money was made. You are a U.S. citizen. That's what matters. Don't like it. Go blow. Happily those who vote will ultimately decide this matter. And there are not enough off-shore money parkers to outvote those who will elect the representatives who will bring the sort of change America can use.

Its my money. So what? So is land, houses, etc. And if you don't pay the property tax, etc., you loose it to the tax man. Tough. So if you want to keep it, you pay up. Your whining about your money is no different. You don't get to earn it without paying tax. Working people do it all the time. Exactly the same principle applies even when the money is earned by whoever wherever.

I cant even believe I am responding to such a fool. I wish you worked for me. I would fire you on principal. You could try. You could try to hire me. But I doubt you have the coin for that sort of thing. And... as to firing on principle, you'd first have to have some shred of principle. In that you are severely lacking in the extreme.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:36   #82
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[quote=Brucev;19490787]
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I say tax you up the wazo... and if you don't like it, you can simply give up your U.S. citizenship and go somewhere else. [/I]
This is where you PROVE yes i said PROVE your stupidity.

Smucks like YOU need me to bring money to start businesses to employ smucks like you because you are incapable of doing anything for yourself.

I will tell you what. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.

I am moving money into the country to adding jobs. I can instantly add 10 jobs if I have another $3M.

Why don't you kick in the $3M and we 10 people will be employed with good paying jobs. I can have the corporate lawyer and accountants get all the paperwork taken care of by Wednesday.

Please prepare your bank transfer. Give me a PM, and we can get details taken care of to verify that you have the funds available for transfer.

YOU can then be a job creator and not a schmuk. But I really expect that you are part of the population that cant come up with $3000 in days and expect someone else to take care of them.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:39   #83
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But I doubt you have the coin for that sort of thing.


$10 an hour employees are 1 penny a dozen.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:40   #84
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Still waiting for CACOP to tell me which 3 accounts are mine. He seems to have suddenly disappeared.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:41   #85
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And Bruce...feel free to come take my money.

I am 11 minutes outside of Basel.

Have fun.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:43   #86
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$10 an hour employees are 1 penny a dozen.
Bruce had posted before that he runs a non profit. I suspect a church.

Imagine that? Running a tax exempt enterprise while wanting to Tax others "up the wazoo"
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:04   #87
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Contracts are broken and modified all the time without bankruptcy.

Let me give you common examples. Repossession of cars.Written into the contract. Backed up by case law. Foreclosure on property.Written into the contract. Backed up by case law. Evictions due to non-payment of rent.Written into the contract. Backed up by case law. Airline tickets (i.e. you had a contract to get you from point a to point b in a certain class of service on a certain day at a certain time..yet that contract is often broken).Read the fine print on those tickets. There is no guarantee. In fact it is generally written explicitly there is no guarantees.

Many many contracts are broken or modified without bankruptcy. In fact, most times parties prefer this because there are more losers in bankruptcy.I would actually prefer bankruptcy in my department because a lot of the deadwood waiting to retire would go and the books would be opened up. We would get to see all the deals done going back serveal years.

I have yet to see a case where someone who didnt enter into the contract has to pay bills for the contract in bankruptcy.

In general if state X doesn't have the money to pay their pension obligations ONLY state X should be required to make it right. There was no representation with the contract from the other 49 states. If the other 49 states were not involved in making the contract, no way on gods green earth should the be liable for payment.No disagreement with you there. CalPERS is doing fine by the way. It is cities and counties spending money on silly things. See San Berdo, Stockton, and OC.

This is like me making a deal on a shiny nee ferrari and then not being able to pay for it. The deal was bewteen the ferrari dealer, the bank, and myself. What does the contract say when you buy a car? But, when when I file bankruptcy, the bank wants their money so they get the court to say CACop and BruceV are responsible for the money owed on the ferrari but I get to keep the ferrari.
My contract with the city said up until last year that I would pay 9% of my pay to CalPERS and the city would pick up any other contributions. For much of the 90s and 2000s the city paid between 0 and 9 percent. Most of the time it was 4-5%. My city could have been smart like Morgan Hill where they banked the amount less than 9%. They chose not to. Now they negotiated a contract where I pay 20%.

No where in the current contract or the other ones was a provision for them to stop paying. CalPERS would not allow it. CalPERS is essentially a bank giving a loan to cities and counties and the state to purchase retirements. They are not going to have it written into the contract where the employer or the employee can stop paying on the pension.

In the 1940s some sicites and counties tried to not pay pensions. The courts ruled it was amatter of contract law. They must pay. The only way out was bankruptcy. Since bankruptcy means opening up the books the cities and counties paid without bankruptcy.

Like I said above in red I would be okay with the city going bankrupt because the courts have the wisdom to see bull****, unlike you.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:14   #88
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Cities don't have any money but what they take from the citizens.

Employees make contracts with cities.

Citizens don't can't or won't pay any more.

Employees don't have contracts with the citizens.

The same power that government has which allows it to compel citizens to pay taxes can be used against employees too, allowing them to not pay if they can't.

As a tax payer when push comes to shove I think there are better uses for my money than paying unrealistic pensions.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:18   #89
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Still waiting for CACOP to tell me which 3 accounts are mine. He seems to have suddenly disappeared.
I did not say they were yours. I suspected they were yours. I do not care who or what you are. You have no affect on my life.

All I pointed out was that another poster in a PM mentioned that he thought you had another screen name. He gave it as DanaT. I did not beleive him at first but a few weeks ago I saw a thread where you, DanaT, and I beleive it was October Rust seemed awfully close to one another in terms of arguments.

Of course since I did not and still do not care what you do in your free time I never really looked it over. This thread and the other one going on here made me think about it again.

I was giving advice to a fellow poster who took your comments to heart in a negative fashion. I wanted to remind him that things are not always what they appear online. Anyone could be anything online. He should never really care about what some anonymous person thinks.

I come here to debate because I get bored from time to time when I am not working. I used to go to the gym or more likely go on long hikes in sunny CA. Now I watch my little kid, glad that I can make a good enough living to support her and my wife. When I have time I stop in and debate you and others for fun.

Enjoy your day. I know I will.
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Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:28   #90
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[quote=DanaT;19490802]
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This is where you PROVE yes i said PROVE your stupidity.

Smucks like YOU need me to bring money to start businesses to employ smucks like you because you are incapable of doing anything for yourself.

I will tell you what. PUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS.

I am moving money into the country to adding jobs. I can instantly add 10 jobs if I have another $3M.

Why don't you kick in the $3M and we 10 people will be employed with good paying jobs. I can have the corporate lawyer and accountants get all the paperwork taken care of by Wednesday.

Please prepare your bank transfer. Give me a PM, and we can get details taken care of to verify that you have the funds available for transfer.

YOU can then be a job creator and not a schmuk. But I really expect that you are part of the population that cant come up with $3000 in days and expect someone else to take care of them.
Prove? Why should I care... or anyone else. You whine and complain about having to pay taxes... and dodge taxes and still complain and blame anyone who you think doesn't pay enough. Others look at you and say... tax you... up the wazo... b/c they do not consider that you are taxed enough. There is no difference. But... you, you do not number so many votes as those who want you taxed... up the wazo. Guess how that's going to go?
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:32   #91
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Like I said above in red I would be okay with the city going bankrupt because the courts have the wisdom to see bull****, unlike you.
Dont be so sure. A company I worked for a while ago filed bankruptcy and the sale of assets was completed on Monday (this week). When I worked there 5 years ago, we saw the financial problems. The only surprises is it took them 5 years to fail and then the owners came out of the bankruptcy so well.

I will show you an example of the "wisdom of the court" in this court filing (I have taken out names)

27. XXXX is the Chief Executive Officer, Manager, and Founder of the Debtor, and is intimately involved in all strategic decisions and the day-to-day operations of the business. Mr. XXXXX has historically been paid a “Guaranteed Payment” from the Debtor in exchange for his services. Most currently, the amount of the “Guaranteed Payment” to Mr. XXXX has been $23,334 per month. This Guaranteed Payment is a gross amount without tax withholdings, and Mr. XXXXX is required to pay self-employment taxes. This is similar to the way that most lawyers who are members or partners in modern law firms are paid.

28. Before the Petition Date, SA XXX obtained a joint and several judgment against the Debtor, Mr. XXXX and others for over $5 million in litigation styled XXX vs. XXX, L.L.C. et al., Case No. XXXX(the “XXXLitigation”), pending in the District Court for Denver County, Colorado (the “Colorado State Court”). Collection of the judgment against the Debtor was stayed by the Colorado State Court after the Debtor posted a bond, but collection of the judgment has not been stayed against Mr. XXXXX.

29. XXXX, however, has aggressively sought to collect the judgment from Mr. XXXX and has obtained a charging order in the XXXX Litigation against Mr. XXXX membership interest in the Debtor. The Colorado State Court has interpreted the applicable statutes and rules such that the Guaranteed Payment received from Mr. XXXX in exchange for his services is a “distribution” and not “salary”, and therefore that the entire Guaranteed Paymentis subject to garnishment.

30. As a result of the Debtor’s severe illiquidity, the Debtor has not paid Mr. XXXX any Guaranteed Payments since May 1, 2012. Accordingly, Mr. XXX is owed $64,932.39 by
the Debtor as of the Petition Date on account of these foregone Guaranteed Payments.

31. Mr. XXXXcan no longer devote his time to the Debtor for no compensation. Therefore, the Debtor seeks authority to, as of the Petition Date, begin paying Mr. XXXX in the
same manner as all other employees, i.e. a normal salary payment every 14 days with various taxes withheld. Neurelec would presumably be able to garnish this salary to the fullest extent permissible by Colorado law, or approximately 25-30%.


dana comment here - This is a pay increase because the company now picks up 7% of the payroll tax that he would have previously been paying as self employment tax

32. In the absence of this relief, it is doubtful that Mr. XXXX could continue todevote any time to the proposed sale of assets and the Debtor’s efforts to restructure its obligations and repay its creditors.


What was the wisdom of the court in this ????

5. In exchange for the performance of his normal and customary duties for the Debtor, the Debtor shall be authorized to compensate XXXX in the same manner, timing
and method as all other employees of the Debtor, with Mr. Bedoya to receive a salary of $23,334 per month for his services, with all state, federal and local withholding taxes to be deducted in accordance with applicable law.



So the wisdom of the court is ANOTHER court finds you liable in a civil case (it was an industrial espionage / illegal trade practices case) and now assets of said company owner are being seized by the winning plaintiff. What does a WISE court decide in bankruptcy? Give him a pay increase and help him hide income that another courts have already ruled are owed to someone else.

So, please tell me how the courts see through BS. BTW. I have only scratched the surface of what happened.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:33   #92
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Cities don't have any money but what they take from the citizens.

Employees make contracts with cities.

Citizens don't can't or won't pay any more.

Employees don't have contracts with the citizens.

The same power that government has which allows it to compel citizens to pay taxes can be used against employees too, allowing them to not pay if they can't.

As a tax payer when push comes to shove I think there are better uses for my money than paying unrealistic pensions.
Go ahead stamp your feet. I am sure they will hear you in I'LL or CA.

You live in LA you have some of the worst schools and law enforcement agencies in the country. You also have some of the lowest paying jobs in those areas. You get what you pay for. You also get what you deserve.

CA and IL want more. Let them have it. And before you say your tax dollars pay for it they don't. Your state receives more money than it gives. And spare me "without the gulf you would have nothing." Martinez, Bakersfield, and Santa Barbara.
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Freakin' awsome!! Kickin it old school. Hot sheet on the dash. The report was probably only two sentences. Long live Rencko and Bobbie Hill!--WhiskeyT
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:41   #93
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All I pointed out was that another poster in a PM mentioned that he thought you had another screen name. He gave it as DanaT. I did not beleive him at first but a few weeks ago I saw a thread where you, DanaT, and I beleive it was October Rust seemed awfully close to one another in terms of arguments.
Thats funny.

How many screen names do you have. I have seen you seen you, TBO, Ohiocopper, etc, etc have awefully close arguments.

But since stupidity (or dont we call that tinfoil hat conspiracy kooks???) is running rampant....here is my IP Address. You can see where I am at.

The Okie Corral
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:45   #94
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Cities don't have any money but what they take from the citizens.

Employees make contracts with cities.

Citizens don't can't or won't pay any more.

Employees don't have contracts with the citizens.

The same power that government has which allows it to compel citizens to pay taxes can be used against employees too, allowing them to not pay if they can't.

As a tax payer when push comes to shove I think there are better uses for my money than paying unrealistic pensions.
As I have said before, I believe this is a matter of contract law and agree with CACop on this. What is owed from the past was compensation that was agreed to. The govt agencies need to find a way to fullfil past obligations because right or wrong, the employees fulfilled theirs.

That said, that doesnt mean past contracts / services provided are bind on future contracts / services that will be provided by employees. Maybe some of coming up with the money to fund the pensions means cutting back current employees.

I believe people need to pay their debts before buying new toys. Same with these pensions. To me they are a debt. They need to be settled. That may mean cuts in other places.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:48   #95
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[quote=Brucev;19490787]
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I will let you in on a little secret...well not so much of a secret....my banking is done through a Swiss bank... Could not care less where you do your banking. Your a U.S. citizen. You should be taxed just like you lived in the domestic U.S. I say tax you up the wazo... and if you don't like it, you can simply give up your U.S. citizenship and go somewhere else. It's no loss to the U.S.

so yeah. I want that 46% to pay their taxes. Your wants won't hurt you!

The money that is not in the USA was NOT EARNED IN THE USA. It is not the peoples money. If I have $20 in my pocket I dont have to spend it. I can "park" my money if I want. Could not care less where the money was made. You are a U.S. citizen. That's what matters. Don't like it. Go blow. Happily those who vote will ultimately decide this matter. And there are not enough off-shore money parkers to outvote those who will elect the representatives who will bring the sort of change America can use.

Its my money. So what? So is land, houses, etc. And if you don't pay the property tax, etc., you loose it to the tax man. Tough. So if you want to keep it, you pay up. Your whining about your money is no different. You don't get to earn it without paying tax. Working people do it all the time. Exactly the same principle applies even when the money is earned by whoever wherever.

I cant even believe I am responding to such a fool. I wish you worked for me. I would fire you on principal. You could try. You could try to hire me. But I doubt you have the coin for that sort of thing. And... as to firing on principle, you'd first have to have some shred of principle. In that you are severely lacking in the extreme.
What a maroon.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:49   #96
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Go ahead stamp your feet. I am sure they will hear you in I'LL or CA.

You live in LA you have some of the worst schools and law enforcement agencies in the country. You also have some of the lowest paying jobs in those areas. You get what you pay for. You also get what you deserve.

CA and IL want more. Let them have it. And before you say your tax dollars pay for it they don't. Your state receives more money than it gives. And spare me "without the gulf you would have nothing." Martinez, Bakersfield, and Santa Barbara.
It really bothers you to be a pie eater rather than a pie producer, doesn't it?

You think of your work as important, and I'm sure it is. But that doesn't change the fact that you rely on someone else for your piece of the pie.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:51   #97
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As I have said before, I believe this is a matter of contract law and agree with CACop on this. What is owed from the past was compensation that was agreed to. The govt agencies need to find a way to fullfil past obligations because right or wrong, the employees fulfilled theirs.

That said, that doesnt mean past contracts / services provided are bind on future contracts / services that will be provided by employees. Maybe some of coming up with the money to fund the pensions means cutting back current employees.

I believe people need to pay their debts before buying new toys. Same with these pensions. To me they are a debt. They need to be settled. That may mean cuts in other places.
I think current voters get to decide how their tax dollars are spent.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:52   #98
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I did not say they were yours. I suspected they were yours. I do not care who or what you are. You have no affect on my life.

All I pointed out was that another poster in a PM mentioned that he thought you had another screen name. He gave it as DanaT. I did not beleive him at first but a few weeks ago I saw a thread where you, DanaT, and I beleive it was October Rust seemed awfully close to one another in terms of arguments.

Of course since I did not and still do not care what you do in your free time I never really looked it over. This thread and the other one going on here made me think about it again.

I was giving advice to a fellow poster who took your comments to heart in a negative fashion. I wanted to remind him that things are not always what they appear online. Anyone could be anything online. He should never really care about what some anonymous person thinks.

I come here to debate because I get bored from time to time when I am not working. I used to go to the gym or more likely go on long hikes in sunny CA. Now I watch my little kid, glad that I can make a good enough living to support her and my wife. When I have time I stop in and debate you and others for fun.

Enjoy your day. I know I will.
Well, Dana T and I do both work for German companies......

You never know
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:04   #99
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All I pointed out was that another poster in a PM mentioned that he thought you had another screen name. He gave it as DanaT. I did not beleive him at first but a few weeks ago I saw a thread where you, DanaT, and I beleive it was October Rust seemed awfully close to one another in terms of arguments.
Actually, since you have caught me, I should probably come clean. We are not the same person. In fact, we aren't even people. We are advanced computer algorithms that are designed to respond to messages are posted and try to elicit responses from people.

We do this, because we are searching for enemies of the New World Order. We assemble lists of names, trace IP address, associate these with browsing history. We have access to back door access in Windows and IOs where we are able to access anything on your computer. We compile lists of "friends and enemies" of the New World Order. The main frame we "live" in is based in Davos Switzerland.

What is good, is that even though it has been admitted you wont believe it because that, by definition would make you a tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy theorist. So you will dismiss all of this and I have nothing to worry about.

PS. I am the lucky one of the two of us because I get to be with Number 6
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Last edited by DanaT; 10-06-2012 at 12:05..
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:06   #100
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I think current voters get to decide how their tax dollars are spent.
I agree with this...but after we settle debt...

Spending needs cut, but past payments need to be paid.
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