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Old 10-04-2012, 20:15   #51
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Old 10-04-2012, 20:21   #52
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Originally Posted by INJoker View Post
Rabbi,

I provided the data for comparison purposes only...

What I'm getting at is the fact that I almost universally hear that teachers are "overpaid" and whenever they want a wage increase, it's deemed extortion by GT-at-large.

I was simply trying to illustrate that, all things being equal, teachers have a low starting salary, modest mid-career salary and modest end-of-career salary relative to other occupations which require the same level of education or experience.
I can understand you feel that way, you may even be right but you did not illustrated that.

Brain surgeons have a profesional degree(doctorate). People who have research degrees, such as a PhD (considered superior to professsional degrees in acedemia)

Brain surgeons make a metric crap ton more money than guy with PhD in English.

You cant compare teacher with masters in education to guy taking a management job in private industry with his MBA. They dont do the same thing, in the same place with the same skill sets.

Masters of Education does not equal MBA.
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Last edited by Rabbi; 10-04-2012 at 22:57..
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Old 10-04-2012, 20:36   #53
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I can understand you feel that way, you may even be right but you did not illustrated that.

Brain surgeons have a profesional degree(doctrate). People who have research degrees, such as a PhD (considered superior to professsional degrees in acedemia)

Brain surgeons make a metric crap ton more money than guy with PhD in English.

You cant compare teacher with masters in education to guy taking a management job in private industry with his MBA. They dont do the same thing, in the same place with the same skill sets.

Masters of Education does not equal MBA.
I concede your point that the "level" of the degree does not in and of itself carry an inherent value for equal comparison.

The point of the data I provided is to illustrate that a 20-year-old kid with a 2-year Associate's Degree in Nursing will make more in his/her first year of full-time employment than the average Indiana public school teacher will after his/her 20th year of service with a Bachelor's degree - the minimum degree level required to teach in Indiana.

A Women's Studies degree is not equal to an Education degree, which does not equal a Business degree or Engineering degree, etc.
But from the continuing education perspective, that isn't as relevant as you would like for it to be.

For instance, why would a middle manager in corporate America pursue a Master's in Education? Why would a teacher pursue an M.B.A.? They wouldn't. It would not make sense in the progression of their respective careers.

So in the context of professional development, a Master's in Education is the next logical step up for the average teacher just as an M.B.A. would be for the average accountant or marketer.
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Last edited by INJoker; 10-04-2012 at 20:38..
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Old 10-04-2012, 20:42   #54
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Originally Posted by INJoker View Post

For instance, why would a middle manager in corporate America pursue a Master's in Education? Why would a teacher pursue an M.B.A.?

They wouldn't. It would not make sense in the progression of their respective careers.

So in the context of professional development, a Master's in Education is the next logical step up for the average teacher just as an M.B.A. would be for the average accountant or marketer.
It is the next logical step(M.edu)...and that step doesnt pay as well as getting an MBA (or an RN...or whatever)

If you are a cop and work for an agency that requires a "Masters" to be promoted to Captain....it doesnt matter if you get a MSME or a Masters in Education. Of course, that doesnt change the potential value of each of those choices.



You are still looking at this in terms of apples and oranges. You cant (and you wont get anyone to take you seriously, except for folks who already agree with you) compare whate teachers make to what ....(whatever) makes.

If you want to be a nurse, the market pays for that based on what a nurse must go though and then does.
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Old 10-04-2012, 21:45   #55
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Originally Posted by INJoker View Post
Rabbi,

I provided the data for comparison purposes only...

What I'm getting at is the fact that I almost universally hear that teachers are "overpaid" and whenever they want a wage increase, it's deemed extortion by GT-at-large.

I was simply trying to illustrate that, all things being equal, teachers have a low starting salary, modest mid-career salary and modest end-of-career salary relative to other occupations which require the same level of education or experience.
Why should we pay them more?

That is a serious question. Teachers want a pay increase. Why should we, as taxpayers, give it to them? What will we get in return for it?

Will results improve if we pay the teachers more?

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Old 10-04-2012, 22:36   #56
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The teachers I know aren't upset about being measured against a high standard. In fact, many of them welcome that. They're upset because the criteria they're being measured against do not reflect reality.
On the contrary: things like test scores are the most objective reality there is. There is no more "real" reality than a set of numbers like the results of a standardized test.

The correct question to ask is, are those scores measuring the right thing? I think that's what you were trying to get at. But to suggest that test scores "do not reflect reality" is ridiculous.

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Asking teachers to overcome all imaginable family, social and lifestyle factors to guarantee equal progress and/or equal outcomes for all students is the underlying goal of most teacher evaluation programs I've seen. Doing this assumes that all children are born equally intelligent to equally intelligent, educated parents. It assumes that these children are all proficient in English and that their families facilitate and encourage educational progress in the home. It assumes their parents read to all of them at night and help them with their homework. This approach assumes that these children all have identical levels of intrinsic motivation, self control and aptitude.
Not at all. Not even a little. No one is asking teachers to guarantee equal progress or equal outcomes.

This is the beauty of large numbers: no one expects teachers to make every student equal. The expectation is that the teacher helps every student improve, such than, on average, the group shows improvement.

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GT loves to harp on and on about personal responsibility almost as much as GT loves to ***** about teachers, yet nobody on GT will blame the people most directly linked to the success of their children in ANY educational program: the parents.
If the teachers do not affect the outcome, then the teachers shouldn't have a job.

But you're wrong. Teachers do have a measurable impact. Good teachers help students improve--a lot.

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I also never see quantitative analysis of data showing the correlations between parents income level, education level and involvement in their child's education to the child's chances for academic success.
I've done them. In fact, I do them for a living--my firm does quite a bit of pro bono work for school districts. Education is one of our social impact focuses.

Of course students who come from wealthy families with well-educated parents tend to do better in school. So what?

Teachers are NOT being asked to guarantee, as you continue to imply, that students in poor neighborhoods with broken families who go hungry at night perform at the same level as kids in suburban schools with soccer mommies.

Teachers are being asked to help those kids. Those kids need help and they're not getting it.

Teachers are being asked to show that their students are improving. The teacher evaluation system that the CTU was so up in arms about? It was going to measure each teacher's performance by testing their students at the beginning of the year, then again at the end of the year, and seeing if test scores improved. That's all. Did this teacher's 30 students do better after a year of teaching than before?

If you genuinely, honestly think that a teacher shouldn't be held accountable to that bare minimum standard, then what are the teachers doing? Why do they have jobs in the first place?
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Old 10-04-2012, 22:44   #57
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Do you know what the average salary is for someone with an M.B.A. in Indiana? Conservative numbers put a starting M.B.A. salary at about $66,000 - or MORE than a 20-year teacher with a Master's in Education.
That sounds pretty low--we start MBAs at about $160-170k all in, plus a 5-figure signing bonus.

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When I hear people talk about how great and easy teaching jobs are, I just want to slap them. Hard.
I have been a teacher.

Teaching is not hard.

Teaching well is very hard, and a lot of work.

You know what else is hard? Roofing. I did that one summer and I thought I was going to die.

Salaries are not set by how "hard" a job is. Salaries are set by the amount of value that an employee creates. I get paid very well and I sit behind a desk for a living now, I really don't work very "hard" at all. My job is to think creatively and solve problems.

It's not "hard" in the way that hauling shingles up a ladder was, but it's "hard" in the sense that not many people can do it. There's a lot of pressure. There's a lot of stress. We create a lot of value, and so we get paid a lot of money.

That is fundamentally how people get paid. Salespeople who make sales are valuable to their companies, so they get paid. Orthopedic surgeons who do more knee replacement surgeries are more valuable than ones who do fewer, and they get paid more. Executives who manage companies well are more valuable than ones who do it poorly; the ones who do well get paid more and the ones who do badly get fired.

You argue that teachers can't change the outcomes for students, so where is the value that they create? Why should they get paid at all?

The above is rhetorical, of course. Teachers create immense value, it's just more difficult to measure than the value that a salesman brings to an organization. That's fine, not everything in life is simple.

But to refuse to acknowledge that teachers can have a positive, measurable effect on outcomes--that's just stupid. Teachers want more, they should offer more.
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Old 10-04-2012, 22:50   #58
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I concede your point that the "level" of the degree does not in and of itself carry an inherent value for equal comparison.
I know people with PhDs who are stay at home moms. I know people with PhDs who drive trucks (seriously, a buddy of mine was tired of being a scientist and got a CDL and now he drives trucks for a living, and seems pretty happy). I know people with PhDs who are professors, and I know people with PhDs who are partners in consulting firms that make a couple of million dollars (or more than a couple, some of them) annually.

A degree is a minimum certification, nothing more. As someone who has several, I know better than most--at the end of the day, they're just letters after your name. They don't entitle you to anything at all, and in fact the idea that a teacher with a master's degree should automatically get paid more than a teacher with just a BA is part of what's wrong with teacher pay.

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The point of the data I provided is to illustrate that a 20-year-old kid with a 2-year Associate's Degree in Nursing will make more in his/her first year of full-time employment than the average Indiana public school teacher will after his/her 20th year of service with a Bachelor's degree
So, go be a nurse.

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So in the context of professional development, a Master's in Education is the next logical step up for the average teacher just as an M.B.A. would be for the average accountant or marketer.
But does the Master's in Education make the teacher a better teacher?

If so, shouldn't we be able to measure that impact?

Shouldn't a teacher with "just" a BA whose students improve more than someone with a Masters whose students don't improve get paid more? Why should the Master's degree holder get paid more just because they got a sheepskin to hang on their wall? Doesn't performance matter more than checking a box?
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Old 10-04-2012, 22:55   #59
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I was simply trying to illustrate that, all things being equal, teachers have a low starting salary, modest mid-career salary and modest end-of-career salary relative to other occupations which require the same level of education or experience.
Other occupations don't give you "tenure" after a few years. And let's be honest, the "same" level of education isn't really the same. A BA in English is not the same as a BS in math. There's always a critical shortage of teachers in STEM fields, precisely because someone with a BS in chemistry can probably go do something else that pays more but someone with a BA in Art History probably can't.

Everything that's wrong with the educational system can be traced back to this idea of treating everyone--students and teachers both--as being "the same."

Let the great students excel, and the struggling students fail a bit. Let the great teachers get paid more and the lousy teachers get fired. Teacher effectiveness CAN be measured--not perfectly, but it can be done.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:22   #60
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It is the next logical step(M.edu)...and that step doesnt pay as well as getting an MBA (or an RN...or whatever)

If you are a cop and work for an agency that requires a "Masters" to be promoted to Captain....it doesnt matter if you get a MSME or a Masters in Education. Of course, that doesnt change the potential value of each of those choices.

You are still looking at this in terms of apples and oranges. You cant (and you wont get anyone to take you seriously, except for folks who already agree with you) compare whate teachers make to what ....(whatever) makes.

If you want to be a nurse, the market pays for that based on what a nurse must go though and then does.
There are political factors outside of "the market" that affect teacher compensation. As I mentioned, there are salary caps in place for teachers in the district in which I live... An extraordinary teacher with stellar results in the classroom simply cannot be compensated at a rate above what is determined by the district/union agreement.

What I'm really hearing from you is, as it appears to me, a reflection of the sentiment that teachers and the service they provide are not valuable.

You mentioned in an earlier post that:

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A quick last thought and probably the most poignant...What does someone with an MBA do?...manage, and often ending up at the executive level. What does someone with a Masters of Education do?...the same thing, still teaching, now with incentive pay.
Please tell me how middle management in a private corporation is inherently more valuable than teaching?

Please tell me what fundamental skills one needs to obtain an M.B.A.?

Please tell me where one obtains those fundamental skills?
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:26   #61
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Why should we pay them more?

That is a serious question. Teachers want a pay increase. Why should we, as taxpayers, give it to them? What will we get in return for it?

Will results improve if we pay the teachers more?
Going back to my initial assertion:

The teachers that I know do not want more money. They feel they are fairly compensated, despite being compensated at a relatively low rate compared to the private sector.

The teachers that I know only want to be fairly evaluated.

Going back to my "Doctor" analogy, please explain to me how it is rational to pin a child's cognitive abilities, aptitude, level of interest, motivation, English proficiency and behavior entirely on a third-grade teacher who only sees him 7 hours per day, 180 days per year?

You really think the impact that teacher has is going to outweigh the influence of the child's drop-out parents who work in a factory?

There is a reason that the children of educated individuals achieve much higher scores on standardized tests: they are expected to do so by their parents.
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Old 10-05-2012, 05:33   #62
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If you genuinely, honestly think that a teacher shouldn't be held accountable to that bare minimum standard, then what are the teachers doing? Why do they have jobs in the first place?
I never said they shouldn't be held accountable, nor did I say they have no influence. I said they want to be held accountable in the right areas and that parents have the most direct impact on a child's chance of success. As your own research indicates, a student's home life has far greater impact on that child's academic ability than which teacher he/she had a particular year.

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Everything that's wrong with the educational system can be traced back to this idea of treating everyone--students and teachers both--as being "the same."

Let the great students excel, and the struggling students fail a bit. Let the great teachers get paid more and the lousy teachers get fired. Teacher effectiveness CAN be measured--not perfectly, but it can be done.
I agree with this quote.

Everything else in your other three posts has already been addressed between Rabbi and myself.
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Old 10-05-2012, 06:12   #63
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Going back to my initial assertion:

The teachers that I know do not want more money. They feel they are fairly compensated, despite being compensated at a relatively low rate compared to the private sector.

The teachers that I know only want to be fairly evaluated.

Going back to my "Doctor" analogy, please explain to me how it is rational to pin a child's cognitive abilities, aptitude, level of interest, motivation, English proficiency and behavior entirely on a third-grade teacher who only sees him 7 hours per day, 180 days per year?

You really think the impact that teacher has is going to outweigh the influence of the child's drop-out parents who work in a factory?

There is a reason that the children of educated individuals achieve much higher scores on standardized tests: they are expected to do so by their parents.
Do you know anyone who thinks they are fairly evaluated?

I'm in sales. My success is largely measured by a simple set of numbers. Those numbers represent only a fraction of what I do every day for my employer. I have a supervisor who lives 800 miles away who will see me 4x yearly. What do you think the chances are that I'll be evaluated fairly?

I'm asked to work evenings, occasional weekends. I'm asked to do things that aren't directly in my job description. No additional compensation though, yes, I make a considerable amount more than a teacher.

My point being that everyone has their burdens. IMO, teachers do an inordinate amount of complaining about theirs.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:30   #64
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Please tell me how middle management in a private corporation is inherently more valuable than teaching?

Please tell me what fundamental skills one needs to obtain an M.B.A.?

Please tell me where one obtains those fundamental skills?
The market compensates it at a higher rate. The market deems it more valuable.

As for trying to tie the learning of those skills starting with teachers....nah, I am not falling for that. That is a poor argument. Using your logic, the teacher is more valuable than the skill...which is not true. The skill is more valuable than the teacher. Using your logic, the elementary teacher should make more than the high school teacher, and the high school teacher should make more than the college Prof....because without the first, a person would not be able to go on to the next....but it works the exact opposite way.

You simply dont understand value. For a biting remark, the MBA would, the teacher, probably not.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:34   #65
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Please tell me how middle management in a private corporation is inherently more valuable than teaching?

Please tell me what fundamental skills one needs to obtain an M.B.A.?
The middle manager in a private corporation generates the wealth to fund the schools.

That's how.

As for fundamental skills, education is widely regarded as one of the least challenging college curriculums, not that it matters here.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:33   #66
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Do you know anyone who thinks they are fairly evaluated?

I'm in sales. My success is largely measured by a simple set of numbers. Those numbers represent only a fraction of what I do every day for my employer. I have a supervisor who lives 800 miles away who will see me 4x yearly. What do you think the chances are that I'll be evaluated fairly?

I'm asked to work evenings, occasional weekends. I'm asked to do things that aren't directly in my job description. No additional compensation though, yes, I make a considerable amount more than a teacher.

My point being that everyone has their burdens. IMO, teachers do an inordinate amount of complaining about theirs.
I'm in sales as well, in some of the most cost-competitive markets on earth.

Before I did this, I was in sales in one of the most competitive industries in North America.

We have the luxury of having an objective standard of measurement - our numbers. We have the luxury of being left to our own devices as to how we achieve those numbers.

Teachers do not.

Teachers cannot 80/20 their customers and "fire" the bad ones. Teachers cannot spend the majority of their time developing their "best" accounts - in fact, they have to spend most of their time trying to bring their laggards up to speed. Teachers have to follow very tightly scripted lesson plan templates in the classroom and meet very specific learning objectives - can you imagine if you had to use a script on every single sales call? Would you be as effective? Teachers cannot work harder or put in more hours to generate better results. They are on a limited schedule...

I could go on and on and on... Yes, everyone has their cross to bear and everyone has things they can complain about in their job - including evaluations.

But the simple fact of the matter is that evaluating teachers is much more subjective than evaluating a salesman.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:37   #67
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I'm in sales as well, in some of the most cost-competitive markets on earth.

Before I did this, I was in sales in one of the most competitive industries in North America.

We have the luxury of having an objective standard of measurement - our numbers. We have the luxury of being left to our own devices as to how we achieve those numbers.

Teachers do not.

Teachers cannot 80/20 their customers and "fire" the bad ones. Teachers cannot spend the majority of their time developing their "best" accounts - in fact, they have to spend most of their time trying to bring their laggards up to speed. Teachers have to follow very tightly scripted lesson plan templates in the classroom and meet very specific learning objectives - can you imagine if you had to use a script on every single sales call? Would you be as effective? Teachers cannot work harder or put in more hours to generate better results. They are on a limited schedule...

I could go on and on and on... Yes, everyone has their cross to bear and everyone has things they can complain about in their job - including evaluations.

But the simple fact of the matter is that evaluating teachers is much more subjective than evaluating a salesman.
Yet every time objective standards are imposed on teachers they object.

You know the saying.....if you can't measure it you can't improve it.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:46   #68
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Yet every time objective standards are imposed on teachers they object.

You know the saying.....if you can't measure it you can't improve it.
Funny you should mention that. What do you think of social promotion in the schools and its effect on other students?
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:49   #69
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The market compensates it at a higher rate. The market deems it more valuable.

As for trying to tie the learning of those skills starting with teachers....nah, I am not falling for that. That is a poor argument. Using your logic, the teacher is more valuable than the skill...which is not true. The skill is more valuable than the teacher. Using your logic, the elementary teacher should make more than the high school teacher, and the high school teacher should make more than the college Prof....because without the first, a person would not be able to go on to the next....but it works the exact opposite way.

You simply dont understand value. For a biting remark, the MBA would, the teacher, probably not.
We've already established that there are outside factors that affect teacher compensation. It's ludicrous to say that pure market forces are at work in public education. "The market" hasn't deemed anything. If education truly paid a fair wage, why would anyone ever leave? Why would 50% of teachers leave the classroom within 5 years?

If people do not need basic math, reading or other skills related to the learning process itself, why do we even have teachers then? To reverse your logic, you would expect people to be able to analyze macroeconomic trend data, develop financial forecasts and conduct market research without mastery of underlying, fundamental skills required to do so?

I don't believe that any "phase" of education is inherently more valuable than any other, but my experiences have taught me that being surrounded by a team with true mastery of basic concepts will get you much further than surrounding yourself with people who have lofty, visionary goals with no ability to execute on them.

Your "biting" remark doesn't offend me in the least because it is patently false. The amount of profit (read: not simply revenue) that I've generated for my employers over the past few years would not have been possible without a fundamental grasp of such concepts.

I'm not going to get into a willy-measuring contest on the internet over whether or not I understand value, because value is one of the most subjective topics we could possibly discuss.

For example, I value a proper primary and secondary education at a greater rate than you because I've seen it's ability to create further value down the chain. I fully credit my education and the wonderful teachers and mentors I've had for getting me to where I'm at right now. I learned more from my teachers and professors than I've learned from any manager I've worked for.

That's my bias. That's why I value teachers over MBAs.

I grew up in a blue-collar home with high school educated parents. I wasn't given anything but a strong work ethic and constant encouragement to study hard and make something of myself.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:51   #70
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The middle manager in a private corporation generates the wealth to fund the schools.

That's how.

As for fundamental skills, education is widely regarded as one of the least challenging college curriculums, not that it matters here.
Please tell me more about which course of study is more challenging between Business and Education.

Let's do it via PM, if you're willing.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:57   #71
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Yet every time objective standards are imposed on teachers they object.

You know the saying.....if you can't measure it you can't improve it.
Success in evaluating educators comes in hybrid form.

1. Define the right outcomes
2. Define the best practices that generate those outcomes
3. Evaluate based on the adherence to best practices

This is a bit backward from what you and I are used to in sales, because ultimately our number is what gets us paid. In teaching, it doesn't work like that for the reasons I mentioned above. In teaching, using statistically-proven best practices is much more likely to generate improvements than creating incentives purely focused on the end-state objective.

You cannot set arbitrary values to learning. Saying, "Every student must improve his/her Math scores by 10% this academic year," is unfair to the students and the teachers. Not all students have that bandwidth. You're setting them both up to fail.

Have you ever taken the time to read through your state standards for education in primary or secondary schools? They're published on your state's DoE website.

It may be worth your time.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:27   #72
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Originally Posted by INJoker View Post
Success in evaluating educators comes in hybrid form.

1. Define the right outcomes
2. Define the best practices that generate those outcomes
3. Evaluate based on the adherence to best practices

This is a bit backward from what you and I are used to in sales, because ultimately our number is what gets us paid. In teaching, it doesn't work like that for the reasons I mentioned above. In teaching, using statistically-proven best practices is much more likely to generate improvements than creating incentives purely focused on the end-state objective.

You cannot set arbitrary values to learning. Saying, "Every student must improve his/her Math scores by 10% this academic year," is unfair to the students and the teachers. Not all students have that bandwidth. You're setting them both up to fail.

Have you ever taken the time to read through your state standards for education in primary or secondary schools? They're published on your state's DoE website.

It may be worth your time.
That sounds like what they're doing now.

At some point a metric must apply though.

Overlay it to sales. Outcome is defined. Often best practices are defined. However still accountable to a measurable result.
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:41   #73
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Yet every time objective standards are imposed on teachers they object.

You know the saying.....if you can't measure it you can't improve it.
So... given your great concern for excellence in education, when will you be graduating and entering the class room to bring your outstanding job skills and expertise to the process of educating the future of America? Get qualified... get in the classroom and show everyone what you can do! Get with it! Be the man you say everyone in education should be! Man up and face the challenge! Keep everyone posted on your day to day success as you put into action all the knowledge and insight you claim to possess. Surely you are not simply standing around sipping coffee and complaining... are you?
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Old 10-06-2012, 09:50   #74
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Please tell me more about which course of study is more challenging between Business and Education.

Let's do it via PM, if you're willing.
See, here is the problem. You honestly believe that there is equivalence.

Again, A masters of education is the running joke of the graduate degree world. That is not my joke. It just is. It is generally considered among the easiest to obtain graduate degrees.

An MBA is not.

I am not sure why you are planting your flag on this hill but oh well.
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Old 10-06-2012, 10:03   #75
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So... given your great concern for excellence in education, when will you be graduating and entering the class room to bring your outstanding job skills and expertise to the process of educating the future of America? Get qualified... get in the classroom and show everyone what you can do! Get with it! Be the man you say everyone in education should be! Man up and face the challenge! Keep everyone posted on your day to day success as you put into action all the knowledge and insight you claim to possess. Surely you are not simply standing around sipping coffee and complaining... are you?
Silly post. I'm dissatisfied with the service I receive at wal mart too. Should I change careers and become an associate?

I put my kids in private schools. I'm quite pleased.

I also endowed a scholarship at the private high school I attended.

That's how I choose to address the problem.

Still not sure what your point is.
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