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Old 09-30-2012, 12:48   #1
Gpruitt54
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.40S&W 165gn FMJ load data WTF!

I have Rainier .40S&W 165gn plated bullets. They load and shoot very well. My .40S&W 165gn FMJ bullets arrived from www.evergladesammo.com. I'm finding it difficult to locate trusted load data for 165gn bullets. It's also hard to locate FMJ load data. My newly purchased Hornady manual does not cover 165gn .40S&W bullets at all. Its as if 165gn bullets do not exist.

Why is this? 155gn and 180gn load data is all over the place, but not 165gn and not FMJ. Why is this? Are these relitively new variations or what?

My Lee manual covers 165rn FMJ as well as plated, but the powder loads are (as discovered in other threads) light. I don't know how to take data from a similar bullet and calculate a load for my bullet. I am not ready to try something like that.
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Old 09-30-2012, 12:59   #2
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IT's why smart relaoders have multiple data ref. The 180gr wt was what the 40 was designed around. Then the came out w/ a 155gr, Hornady used to first intro the middle wt, but it was a 170gr. So 165gr is now the middle wt std. The Hodgdon site has 165gr data as does Alliant, but it only shows max. In a pinch, it's always safe to use heavy bullet data for lighter bullets & work up. Keep in mind, plated ARE NOT FMJ, & should be loaded between a lead bullet & jacketed bullet. Since there are precious few 165gr lead bullets, most are 170gr+, again, use the heavier 180gr data & work up.
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Last edited by fredj338; 09-30-2012 at 13:01..
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Old 09-30-2012, 14:40   #3
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The Speer #14 manual has load data for 165 gn TMJ FN and GDHP. It turns out that the bullet you bought actually is a FMJ FN! Pretty close!

The Sierra manual has load data for 165 gn JHP.

The Accurate manual I linked to earlier has data for the Sierra 165 gr JHP including a load for #2.

There's a reason I have nearly a dozen loading manuals including some very old Speer books! You just can't have too much data.

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Last edited by F106 Fan; 09-30-2012 at 14:42.. Reason: TMJ vs FMJ
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Old 09-30-2012, 15:47   #4
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I posted data in another thread earlier this week. All stuff that I worked up myself. Look and you will find it. It does not contain any AA data as I don't like or use any AA pistol powders. Actually I had issues with AA#5 and haven't been willing to give them any of my money since then.

Do yourself a favor before you buy any more bullets and ask what people recommend. You are making more work for yourself by buying the cheapest weight available. Most guns have a favorite weight and profile bullet.

When you start reloading it is best to start with 124 gr 9mm and 180gr 40sw.
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:04   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
IT's why smart relaoders have multiple data ref. The 180gr wt was what the 40 was designed around. Then the came out w/ a 155gr, Hornady used to first intro the middle wt, but it was a 170gr. So 165gr is now the middle wt std. The Hodgdon site has 165gr data as does Alliant, but it only shows max. In a pinch, it's always safe to use heavy bullet data for lighter bullets & work up. Keep in mind, plated ARE NOT FMJ, & should be loaded between a lead bullet & jacketed bullet. Since there are precious few 165gr lead bullets, most are 170gr+, again, use the heavier 180gr data & work up.
I am taking note of all these bits of information. I'd heard that 180gn .40S&W FMJ pullets were very inaccurate. Cannot confirm this, I read it some place.
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:12   #6
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:15   #7
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I've come across this same topic myself recently when my order of 1000 165gr JHP Montana Gold's arrived. I'm going to give Longshot a go, and see how it does. From what I have noticed so far, the 40 appears to like the case full of a slow powder. I've had really good results with the 155gr XTP and BlueDot, so fingers crossed with the 165gr and Longshot. If you find a powder that puts up good numbers, and is pretty accurate please share. Hopefully I can post my findings with the Longshot and the 165's by the end of the week, and the load will work out well.
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:16   #8
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I am trying to remember what you had for powders.

here is one of mine.
Rainier 165 fmj WIN 231 4.8gr OAL 1.25

here is the book
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
Winchester 231 .400" 1.125" 4.8 946 28,100 PSI 5.3 1001 32,500 PSI


40 S&W
Cartridge Load Data Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Bullet Weight (Gr.) Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
165 GR. SIE JHP Longshot .400" 1.125" 7.3 1139 29,600 PSI 7.8 1185 33,400 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP SR 4756 .400" 1.125" 7.2 1075 26,200 PSI 7.9 1168 33,000 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP HS-6 .400" 1.125" 7.3 1013 28,700 PSI 8.0 1098 32,700 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP AutoComp .400" 1.125" 6.5 1037 25,600 PSI 7.1 1124 31,500 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP Universal .400" 1.125" 5.1 976 26,800 PSI 5.6 1061 32,900 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP WSF .400" 1.125" 6.3 1055 28,100 PSI 6.7 1115 32,700 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP 231 .400" 1.125" 4.8 946 28,100 PSI 5.3 1001 32,500 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP HP-38 .400" 1.125" 4.8 946 28,100 PSI 5.3 1001 32,500 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP SR 7625 .400" 1.125" 5.9 1020 27,400 PSI 6.5 1097 32,100 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP PB .400" 1.125" 4.7 932 26,400 PSI 5.2 1007 32,200 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP WST .400" 1.125" 4.5 916 26,400 PSI 5.1 995 33,300 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP Titegroup .400" 1.125" 4.6 961 27,000 PSI 5.1 1047 33,600 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP 700-X .400" 1.125" 5.0 997 28,000 PSI 5.5 1066 32,900 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP Clays .400" 1.125" 3.5 851 29,900 PSI 3.9 897 33,300 PSI
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:30   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
I am taking note of all these bits of information. I'd heard that 180gn .40S&W FMJ pullets were very inaccurate. Cannot confirm this, I read it some place.
Who was doing the shooting? One of the top 10 NRA Bullseye shooters or just some guy who couldn't hit a bull in the butt at 10 yards?

Precision Delta has sample packs. Why not buy one or two and see how they work?

Richard
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:33   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
The Speer #14 manual has load data for 165 gn TMJ FN and GDHP. It turns out that the bullet you bought actually is a FMJ FN! Pretty close!

The Sierra manual has load data for 165 gn JHP.

The Accurate manual I linked to earlier has data for the Sierra 165 gr JHP including a load for #2.

There's a reason I have nearly a dozen loading manuals including some very old Speer books! You just can't have too much data.

Richard
I have only 3 manuals. Three..., I never thought I would need more than 2. Now I am considering buying a 4th manual. Oh well!

Before I started reloading, I always bought 165gn FMJ or plated FN .40S&W rounds. When I started buying my reloading gear and consumables for reloading, I naturally bought 165gn FMJ FN bullets (what is a TMJ bullet?). It made since to reload the round I use to buy. Also, I am reloading target loads (only). I buy my defense (JHP) loads (for now). So, I don't need max loads or heavy bullets. 165gn bullets go through paper targets quite well.

Sure, after I find load data for 165gn bullets, and reload my bullets, I may have to consider 180gn bullets, but I would prefer to stick with 165gn bullets.
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Old 10-01-2012, 19:54   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shotgunred View Post
I am trying to remember what you had for powders.

here is one of mine.
Rainier 165 fmj WIN 231 4.8gr OAL 1.25

here is the book
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp
Winchester 231 .400" 1.125" 4.8 946 28,100 PSI 5.3 1001 32,500 PSI


40 S&W
Cartridge Load Data Starting Loads
Maximum Loads
Bullet Weight (Gr.) Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
165 GR. SIE JHP Longshot .400" 1.125" 7.3 1139 29,600 PSI 7.8 1185 33,400 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP SR 4756 .400" 1.125" 7.2 1075 26,200 PSI 7.9 1168 33,000 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP HS-6 .400" 1.125" 7.3 1013 28,700 PSI 8.0 1098 32,700 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP AutoComp .400" 1.125" 6.5 1037 25,600 PSI 7.1 1124 31,500 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP Universal .400" 1.125" 5.1 976 26,800 PSI 5.6 1061 32,900 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP WSF .400" 1.125" 6.3 1055 28,100 PSI 6.7 1115 32,700 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP 231 .400" 1.125" 4.8 946 28,100 PSI 5.3 1001 32,500 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP HP-38 .400" 1.125" 4.8 946 28,100 PSI 5.3 1001 32,500 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP SR 7625 .400" 1.125" 5.9 1020 27,400 PSI 6.5 1097 32,100 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP PB .400" 1.125" 4.7 932 26,400 PSI 5.2 1007 32,200 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP WST .400" 1.125" 4.5 916 26,400 PSI 5.1 995 33,300 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP Titegroup .400" 1.125" 4.6 961 27,000 PSI 5.1 1047 33,600 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP 700-X .400" 1.125" 5.0 997 28,000 PSI 5.5 1066 32,900 PSI
165 GR. SIE JHP Clays .400" 1.125" 3.5 851 29,900 PSI 3.9 897 33,300 PSI
I saw this link and was shocked to see that all the 165gn bullets listed there are for JHP. My bullets are FMJ FN. I did now know the load data could be interhcanged between FN and JHP bullets.

It seems that in the manuals, JHP and FMJ FN bullets list different powder weights, so I thought you could not interchange the charge between them. Can I enterchange them?

But what do I know. I am still learning how to do this. Thanks for the information.
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:04   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
Who was doing the shooting? One of the top 10 NRA Bullseye shooters or just some guy who couldn't hit a bull in the butt at 10 yards?

Precision Delta has sample packs. Why not buy one or two and see how they work?

Richard
Yeah, that is a gret idea. I'll do that.
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:05   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
I saw this link and was shocked to see that all the 165gn bullets listed there are for JHP. My bullets are FMJ FN. I did now know the load data could be interhcanged between FN and JHP bullets.

It seems that in the manuals, JHP and FMJ FN bullets list different powder weights, so I thought you could not interchange the charge between them. Can I enterchange them?

But what do I know. I am still learning how to do this. Thanks for the information.
Not really... It isn't just the bullet weight but also the length (as it relates to OAL and case volume) and also the bearing surface (profile) along the barrel.

That's why the recommendation is to start at the minimum charge and slowly work up toward, but probably never reaching, max. Just make a few of each charge in increments of 0.1 gr.

A TMJ has a copper cover over the base of the bullet. These are often used at ranges that don't allow exposed lead. Plated is another choice for that application.

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Old 10-01-2012, 20:28   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
I am taking note of all these bits of information. I'd heard that 180gn .40S&W FMJ pullets were very inaccurate. Cannot confirm this, I read it some place.
Hogwash. Its still the leading bullet wight for reloading as far as I know. Why would everyone keep using it?
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:33   #15
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Here is what I have:
Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Note P.F. COL
Sie JHP 165 231/HP38 4.8 946 Start 156 1.125
JHP 165 231/HP38 4.8 0 1.130
Rainier CuP-FNHP 165 231/HP38 4.8 0 1.145
TMJ 165 231/HP38 4.8 0 1.145
Spr TMJ 165 231/HP38 5.2 937 Start 155
Sie JHP 165 231/HP38 5.3 1001 Max 165 1.125
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 231/HP38 5.8 955 Start 158
Rainier P-SWC 165 231/HP38 5.8 958 Start 158
Spr TMJ 165 231/HP38 5.8 1050 Max 173
GD-HP 165 231/HP38 6.2 1095 181
Rainier P-SWC 165 231/HP38 6.3 1030 Max 170
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 231/HP38 6.3 1031 Max 170
TC-FMJ 165 3N37 7.3 1125 Start 186 1.126
TC-FMJ 165 3N37 7.5 1166 Max 192 1.126
TC-FMJ 165 3N38 9.6 1211 Start 200 1.126
TC-FMJ 165 3N38 9.8 1252 Max 207 1.126
Sie JHP 165 700X 5.0 997 Start 165 1.125
Sie JHP 165 700X 5.5 1066 Max 176 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 800X 7.2 891 Start 147
Spr TMJ 165 800X 8.0 1004 Max 166
Sie JHP 165 AA2 5.6 916 Start 151 1.125
Sie JHP 165 AA2 6.2 1041 Max 172 1.125
Sie JHP 165 AA5 6.5 911 Start 150 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 AA5 6.9 934 Start 154
Speer-TMJ 165 AA5 7.0 Start 0
Sie JHP 165 AA5 7.2 1035 Max 171 1.125
RainierCuP-FNHP 165 AA5 7.3 0
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 AA5 7.6 916 Start 151
Spr TMJ 165 AA5 7.6 1025 Max 169
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 AA5 8.5 1067 Max 176
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 AA5 8.5 HOT 0 1.120
Speer-TMJ 165 AA5 9.0 1160 Max 191
RainierCuP-FNHP 165 AA7 7.3 0
Sie JHP 165 AA7 8.4 923 Start 152 1.125
Sie JHP 165 AA7 9.3 1049 Max 173 1.125
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 AA7 9.6 951 Start 157
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 AA7 10.5 1041 Max 172
Sie JHP 165 Auto Comp 6.5 1037 Start 171 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Auto Comp 7.1 1124 Max 185 1.125
Sie 165 AutoComp 6.5 1037 Start 171
Sie JHP 165 AutoComp 7.1 1124 Max 185
Spr TMJ 165 Blue Dot 8.3 922 Start 152
Spr TMJ 165 Blue Dot 9.2 1018 Max 168
Spr TMJ 165 Bullseye 4.8 733 Start 121
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 Bullseye 5.3 949 Start 157
Rainier P-SWC 165 Bullseye 5.3 950 Start 157
Spr TMJ 165 Bullseye 5.4 825 Max 136
Rainier P-SWC 165 Bullseye 5.8 1020 Max 168
Speer GDHP 165 Bullseye 5.8 1022 Max 169 1.120
Zero JHP 165 Clays 3.2 770 127 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Clays 3.5 851 Start 140 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Clays 3.9 897 Max 148 1.125
FederalHydra-Shoksubsonic 165 Factory 970 160
GoldDotFactory 165 Factory 1012 167
J-Factory 165 Factory 1026 169
CorbonJHP 165 Factory 1109 183
J-Factory 165 Factory 1164 192
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 Factory 1179 195
Speer GD-HP 165 HS6 7.0 Start
Sie JHP 165 HS6 7.3 1013 Start 167 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 HS6 7.6 833 Start 137
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 HS6 8.0 1012 Start 167
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 HS6 8.0 1012 167
Sie JHP 165 HS6 8.0 1098 Max 181 1.125
Speer GD-HP 165 HS6 8.3 1110 Max
Spr TMJ 165 HS6 8.5 979 Max 162
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 HS6 8.5 1060 Max 175
Speer GD-HP 165 HS7 7.3 Start
Speer GD-HP 165 HS7 8.5 1190 Max
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 HS7 9.0 1008 Start 166
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 HS7 9.8 1085 Max 179
Sie JHP 165 Longshot 7.3 1139 Start 188 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Longshot 7.8 1185 Max 196 1.125
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 Longshot 8.0 1091 180
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 Longshot 8.3 1100 182
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 Longshot 8.5 1149 190
Zero JHP 165 N320 4.0 763 126 1.130
Zero JHP 165 N320 4.2 854 141 1.130
Berry's 165 N320 4.6 916 151 1.135
TC-FMJ 165 N320 4.9 994 Start 164 1.126
Zero JHP 165 N320 5.0 984 162 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 N340 5.5 873 Start 144
Spr TMJ 165 N340 6.1 997 Max 165
TC-FMJ 165 N340 6.6 1137 Max 188 1.126
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 N350 6.7 989 Start 163
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 N350 7.5 1106 Max 182
Sie JHP 165 PB 4.7 932 Start 154 1.125
Sie JHP 165 PB 5.2 1007 Max 166 1.125
RainierCuP-FNHP 165 Power Pistol 6.0 960 158 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 Power Pistol 6.3 855 Start 141
Penn TCBB 165 Power Pistol 6.5 Accurate 0
RainierCuP-FNHP 165 Power Pistol 6.8 1021 168 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 Power Pistol 7.0 953 Max 157
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 Power Pistol 7.0 978 Start 161
FMJ 165 Power Pistol 7.2 1090 180 1.124
JHP 165 Power Pistol 7.5 1130 186 1.124
SpeerGDHP 165 Power Pistol 7.8 1081 Max 178 1.120
RNFP FMJ/Plated 165 Promo 4.7 0 1.125
SieJHP 165 Silhouette 6.2 960 Start 1.130
SieJHP 165 Silhouette 6.9 1067 Max 1.130
J-all 168 Solo 1000 4.2 888 Start 149
J-all 168 Solo 1000 4.6 1000 Max 168
MG JHP 165 Solo 1000 4.9 1000 165 1.145
Sie JHP 165 SR4756 7.2 1075 Start 177 1.125
Sie JHP 165 SR4756 7.9 1168 Max 193 1.125
Sie JHP 165 SR7625 5.9 1020 Start 168 1.125
Sie JHP 165 SR7625 6.5 1097 Max 181 1.125
PD FMJ 165 TiteGroup 4.3 876 Minor 145 1.135
Rainier CuP-FNHP 165 TiteGroup 4.6 888 147 1.125
Sie JHP 165 TiteGroup 4.6 961 Start 159 1.125
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 TiteGroup 5.0 957 Start 158
Sie JHP 165 TiteGroup 5.1 1047 Max 173 1.125
Rainier CuP-FNHP 165 TiteGroup 5.4 1018 168 1.125
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 TiteGroup 5.4 1035 Max 171
Sie JHP 165 True Blue 6.9 1014 Start 167 1.135
Sie JHP 165 True Blue 7.7 1127 Max 186 1.135
Rainier CuP-FNHP 165 True Blue 7.8 1070 177 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 Unique 5.4 952 Start 157
Spr TMJ 165 Unique 6.0 1034 Max 171
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 Unique 6.2 882 Start 146
Sierra-JHP 165 Unique 6.5 Start 0
Spr GDHP 165 Unique 7.2 1064 Max 176 1.120
Sie JHP 165 Universal 5.1 976 Start 161 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Universal 5.6 1061 Max 175 1.125
MG FMJ 165 Universal 5.7 976 161 1.135
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 Universal 5.7 999 Start 165
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 Universal 6.2 1074 Max 177
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 WSF 6.2 1007 Start 166
Sie JHP 165 WSF 6.3 1055 Start 174 1.125
Sie JHP 165 WSF 6.7 1115 Max 184 1.125
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 WSF 6.8 1082 Max 179
TMJ 165 WSL 5.9 1025 169 1.128
Sie JHP 165 WST 4.5 916 Start 151 1.125
Sie JHP 165 WST 5.1 995 Max 164 1.125
Rainier CuP-HP 160 WST 5.2 1017 163 1.150
Sie JHP 165 Zip 5.1 925 Start 153 1.124
Sie JHP 165 Zip 5.7 1028 Max 170 1.124
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:35   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
...(what is a TMJ bullet?)...
It's a Total Metal Jacket, like Montana Gold's CMJ (Complete Metal Jacket) and are completely encapsulated in a jacket - though MG's looks more like a plating at the bottom. They allegedly shoot cleaner and with less smoke and lead particulates flying about as no lead is exposed through ignition. Of course, the primers have lead also I think, so...

AFAIK TMJs and CMJs can have the same profile as non-TMJ/CMJ so should be interchangable with FMJ for a given bullet weight (and similar profile) - but some wise person can correct that if that's not precisely true.

Plated is a different animal.
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:38   #17
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Originally Posted by F106 Fan View Post
...A TMJ has a copper cover over the base of the bullet. These are often used at ranges that don't allow exposed lead. Plated is another choice for that application.

Richard
Thanks Richard, it takes me 20 minutes to turn a thread post around sometimes...
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:41   #18
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TMJs are PLATED.
The CMJ bullets have a brass disk placed for the base and the jacket crimps around it.
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:43   #19
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TMJs are PLATED.
The CMJ bullets have a brass disk placed for the base and the jacket crimps around it.
I don't think TMJs are plated as they are advertised as Total Metal JACKETS.
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Old 10-01-2012, 20:54   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noylj View Post
Here is what I have:
Bullet Weight Powder Weight Velocity Note P.F. COL
Sie JHP 165 231/HP38 4.8 946 Start 156 1.125
JHP 165 231/HP38 4.8 0 1.130
Rainier CuP-FNHP 165 231/HP38 4.8 0 1.145
TMJ 165 231/HP38 4.8 0 1.145
Spr TMJ 165 231/HP38 5.2 937 Start 155
Sie JHP 165 231/HP38 5.3 1001 Max 165 1.125
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 231/HP38 5.8 955 Start 158
Rainier P-SWC 165 231/HP38 5.8 958 Start 158
Spr TMJ 165 231/HP38 5.8 1050 Max 173
GD-HP 165 231/HP38 6.2 1095 181
Rainier P-SWC 165 231/HP38 6.3 1030 Max 170
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 231/HP38 6.3 1031 Max 170
TC-FMJ 165 3N37 7.3 1125 Start 186 1.126
TC-FMJ 165 3N37 7.5 1166 Max 192 1.126
TC-FMJ 165 3N38 9.6 1211 Start 200 1.126
TC-FMJ 165 3N38 9.8 1252 Max 207 1.126
Sie JHP 165 700X 5.0 997 Start 165 1.125
Sie JHP 165 700X 5.5 1066 Max 176 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 800X 7.2 891 Start 147
Spr TMJ 165 800X 8.0 1004 Max 166
Sie JHP 165 AA2 5.6 916 Start 151 1.125
Sie JHP 165 AA2 6.2 1041 Max 172 1.125
Sie JHP 165 AA5 6.5 911 Start 150 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 AA5 6.9 934 Start 154
Speer-TMJ 165 AA5 7.0 Start 0
Sie JHP 165 AA5 7.2 1035 Max 171 1.125
RainierCuP-FNHP 165 AA5 7.3 0
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 AA5 7.6 916 Start 151
Spr TMJ 165 AA5 7.6 1025 Max 169
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 AA5 8.5 1067 Max 176
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 AA5 8.5 HOT 0 1.120
Speer-TMJ 165 AA5 9.0 1160 Max 191
RainierCuP-FNHP 165 AA7 7.3 0
Sie JHP 165 AA7 8.4 923 Start 152 1.125
Sie JHP 165 AA7 9.3 1049 Max 173 1.125
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 AA7 9.6 951 Start 157
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 AA7 10.5 1041 Max 172
Sie JHP 165 Auto Comp 6.5 1037 Start 171 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Auto Comp 7.1 1124 Max 185 1.125
Sie 165 AutoComp 6.5 1037 Start 171
Sie JHP 165 AutoComp 7.1 1124 Max 185
Spr TMJ 165 Blue Dot 8.3 922 Start 152
Spr TMJ 165 Blue Dot 9.2 1018 Max 168
Spr TMJ 165 Bullseye 4.8 733 Start 121
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 Bullseye 5.3 949 Start 157
Rainier P-SWC 165 Bullseye 5.3 950 Start 157
Spr TMJ 165 Bullseye 5.4 825 Max 136
Rainier P-SWC 165 Bullseye 5.8 1020 Max 168
Speer GDHP 165 Bullseye 5.8 1022 Max 169 1.120
Zero JHP 165 Clays 3.2 770 127 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Clays 3.5 851 Start 140 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Clays 3.9 897 Max 148 1.125
FederalHydra-Shoksubsonic 165 Factory 970 160
GoldDotFactory 165 Factory 1012 167
J-Factory 165 Factory 1026 169
CorbonJHP 165 Factory 1109 183
J-Factory 165 Factory 1164 192
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 Factory 1179 195
Speer GD-HP 165 HS6 7.0 Start
Sie JHP 165 HS6 7.3 1013 Start 167 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 HS6 7.6 833 Start 137
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 HS6 8.0 1012 Start 167
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 HS6 8.0 1012 167
Sie JHP 165 HS6 8.0 1098 Max 181 1.125
Speer GD-HP 165 HS6 8.3 1110 Max
Spr TMJ 165 HS6 8.5 979 Max 162
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 HS6 8.5 1060 Max 175
Speer GD-HP 165 HS7 7.3 Start
Speer GD-HP 165 HS7 8.5 1190 Max
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 HS7 9.0 1008 Start 166
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 HS7 9.8 1085 Max 179
Sie JHP 165 Longshot 7.3 1139 Start 188 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Longshot 7.8 1185 Max 196 1.125
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 Longshot 8.0 1091 180
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 Longshot 8.3 1100 182
Rem.GoldenSabre 165 Longshot 8.5 1149 190
Zero JHP 165 N320 4.0 763 126 1.130
Zero JHP 165 N320 4.2 854 141 1.130
Berry's 165 N320 4.6 916 151 1.135
TC-FMJ 165 N320 4.9 994 Start 164 1.126
Zero JHP 165 N320 5.0 984 162 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 N340 5.5 873 Start 144
Spr TMJ 165 N340 6.1 997 Max 165
TC-FMJ 165 N340 6.6 1137 Max 188 1.126
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 N350 6.7 989 Start 163
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 N350 7.5 1106 Max 182
Sie JHP 165 PB 4.7 932 Start 154 1.125
Sie JHP 165 PB 5.2 1007 Max 166 1.125
RainierCuP-FNHP 165 Power Pistol 6.0 960 158 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 Power Pistol 6.3 855 Start 141
Penn TCBB 165 Power Pistol 6.5 Accurate 0
RainierCuP-FNHP 165 Power Pistol 6.8 1021 168 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 Power Pistol 7.0 953 Max 157
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 Power Pistol 7.0 978 Start 161
FMJ 165 Power Pistol 7.2 1090 180 1.124
JHP 165 Power Pistol 7.5 1130 186 1.124
SpeerGDHP 165 Power Pistol 7.8 1081 Max 178 1.120
RNFP FMJ/Plated 165 Promo 4.7 0 1.125
SieJHP 165 Silhouette 6.2 960 Start 1.130
SieJHP 165 Silhouette 6.9 1067 Max 1.130
J-all 168 Solo 1000 4.2 888 Start 149
J-all 168 Solo 1000 4.6 1000 Max 168
MG JHP 165 Solo 1000 4.9 1000 165 1.145
Sie JHP 165 SR4756 7.2 1075 Start 177 1.125
Sie JHP 165 SR4756 7.9 1168 Max 193 1.125
Sie JHP 165 SR7625 5.9 1020 Start 168 1.125
Sie JHP 165 SR7625 6.5 1097 Max 181 1.125
PD FMJ 165 TiteGroup 4.3 876 Minor 145 1.135
Rainier CuP-FNHP 165 TiteGroup 4.6 888 147 1.125
Sie JHP 165 TiteGroup 4.6 961 Start 159 1.125
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 TiteGroup 5.0 957 Start 158
Sie JHP 165 TiteGroup 5.1 1047 Max 173 1.125
Rainier CuP-FNHP 165 TiteGroup 5.4 1018 168 1.125
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 TiteGroup 5.4 1035 Max 171
Sie JHP 165 True Blue 6.9 1014 Start 167 1.135
Sie JHP 165 True Blue 7.7 1127 Max 186 1.135
Rainier CuP-FNHP 165 True Blue 7.8 1070 177 1.125
Spr TMJ 165 Unique 5.4 952 Start 157
Spr TMJ 165 Unique 6.0 1034 Max 171
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 Unique 6.2 882 Start 146
Sierra-JHP 165 Unique 6.5 Start 0
Spr GDHP 165 Unique 7.2 1064 Max 176 1.120
Sie JHP 165 Universal 5.1 976 Start 161 1.125
Sie JHP 165 Universal 5.6 1061 Max 175 1.125
MG FMJ 165 Universal 5.7 976 161 1.135
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 Universal 5.7 999 Start 165
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 Universal 6.2 1074 Max 177
Spr TMJ-FN/GDHP 165 WSF 6.2 1007 Start 166
Sie JHP 165 WSF 6.3 1055 Start 174 1.125
Sie JHP 165 WSF 6.7 1115 Max 184 1.125
Spr GD TMJ/GDHP 165 WSF 6.8 1082 Max 179
TMJ 165 WSL 5.9 1025 169 1.128
Sie JHP 165 WST 4.5 916 Start 151 1.125
Sie JHP 165 WST 5.1 995 Max 164 1.125
Rainier CuP-HP 160 WST 5.2 1017 163 1.150
Sie JHP 165 Zip 5.1 925 Start 153 1.124
Sie JHP 165 Zip 5.7 1028 Max 170 1.124
These are your collected load data? The manuals say not to use loads that are not published. Where do these load data come from?

Last edited by Gpruitt54; 10-02-2012 at 06:28..
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Old 10-02-2012, 01:37   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
I saw this link and was shocked to see that all the 165gn bullets listed there are for JHP. My bullets are FMJ FN. I did now know the load data could be interhcanged between FN and JHP bullets.

It seems that in the manuals, JHP and FMJ FN bullets list different powder weights, so I thought you could not interchange the charge between them. Can I enterchange them?

But what do I know. I am still learning how to do this. Thanks for the information.
The data is really NOT interchangeavle. Sure you use the same powder & may even use the same charge wt, BUT, OAL may vary. Always keep in mind, bullets are NOT plug & play. lead is not palted, plated is not jacketed, JHP are NOT FMJ, you have to work loads up diff. for each. If you never go much above starting level, then bullets become more plug & play.
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Old 10-02-2012, 06:25   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
The data is really NOT interchangeavle. Sure you use the same powder & may even use the same charge wt, BUT, OAL may vary. Always keep in mind, bullets are NOT plug & play. lead is not palted, plated is not jacketed, JHP are NOT FMJ, you have to work loads up diff. for each. If you never go much above starting level, then bullets become more plug & play.
Yes, there are differences that cannot be interchanged. I have a some basic questions.
  • I have some plated bullets. How would I adjust the variables between Lead and plated bullets in terns of powder loads and OAL?
  • I have FMJ FN and RN bullets. How would I adjust between FMJ and JHP bullets in terns of powder loads and OAL?
I've never seen anything in the manuals that address these questions. I never go for max loads. I am target shooting, so max loads are not necessary.
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:18   #23
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There is a strange shortage of 165gr data for some odd reason. I don't shoot a whole lot of 165's although I have no problem with them.

From past experience, Power Pistol does very well, as 8gr averaged 1125 fps from a 3" Kahr CM40 (165gr FMJ), so that should be well over 1150 fps from 4" G23.

VV 3N38 is perfect for higher end .40 loads, but as usual, VV powder is more pricey and kind of hard to find, but does awesome at over 1250 fps. 8.2gr of Longshot averages 1140 from 3" Kahr CM40
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Last edited by SDGlock23; 10-02-2012 at 10:21..
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Old 10-02-2012, 10:47   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gpruitt54 View Post
Yes, there are differences that cannot be interchanged. I have a some basic questions.
  • I have some plated bullets. How would I adjust the variables between Lead and plated bullets in terns of powder loads and OAL?
Go to the manufacturer's web site and they will give some overall guidelines. There is a muzzle velocity limit and a recommendation to load somewhere between mid-range lead loads and mid-range jacketed load.

I find this insufficient and not very satisfying. I don't shoot plated bullets for the simple reason that the manufacturers don't even bother to create load data.

Quote:
  • I have FMJ FN and RN bullets. How would I adjust between FMJ and JHP bullets in terns of powder loads and OAL?
In terms of pistol:

One goal is to keep case volume the same. For that to work, a shorter bullet will have a lesser OAL. A longer bullet will have a longer OAL.

Another goal is for the bullet to run up the feed ramp.
Yet another is for the assembled round to fit in the magazine.

Within reason, a longer OAL is probably preferred. In general, the pressure will be lower. However, velocity still has to be sufficient to operate the mechanism and, in some cases, make a power level for competition.

Quote:
I've never seen anything in the manuals that address these questions. I never go for max loads. I am target shooting, so max loads are not necessary.
And that's why you work up loads from an average of published data. You work up the charge from MIN toward, and probably never reaching, MAX. When you get to a point where the gun is reliable, the charge is away from MAX and the accuracy is adequate, you have found the load.

Look at the load data in manuals. Specifically, look at the differences in the velocity ranges of certain powders. Try to use powders that have a velocity range well beyond what you are trying to achieve. That way there is some room for error when you drop a charge.

If Longshot powder is listed, it will probably be capable of the highest velocity for a given case/bullet. Of course you may incinerate your target with muzzle flash but, hey, it's still a hit!

Look for slower powders and, for a while, stay away from faster powders like Titegroup and Bullseye. Read the burn rate chart and think about what it means. For one thing, you want to be using slower powders - like Unique, Power Pistol or WSF.

http://www.hodgdon.com/burn-rate.html

Finally, ask around about loads. You should show that you have read data from manuals, nobody wants to simply hand out data. When you get Internet load data, make sure it fits within published specs.

Read a lot and reflect on what you are reading. See how it all ties together.

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Old 10-05-2012, 06:10   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredj338 View Post
The data is really NOT interchangeavle. Sure you use the same powder & may even use the same charge wt, BUT, OAL may vary. Always keep in mind, bullets are NOT plug & play. lead is not palted, plated is not jacketed, JHP are NOT FMJ, you have to work loads up diff. for each. If you never go much above starting level, then bullets become more plug & play.
Sure,

Here is what I am looking for.

If I see load data for a 165gn .40S&W. JHP bullet that uses powder I am using, and my bullets are 165gn .40S&W FMJ FN bullet, how do I make that load work for the FMJ FN bullet? Do I adjust only the OAL?

The manual load tables do not address case volumes, at all. So, this metric has not been a part of my measurements. How can anyone work up a load that includes metrics (case volume) that are not referenced in the published handgun load tables?

I am shooting target loads for hand gun, not competition loads and not hunting loads. If the manuals do not even list case volumes in the tables for hand gun loads, why are some people talking about it here in this thread? Is this an issue for rifle loads, and is that thinking being unnecessarily introduced in this conversation?

For a new reloader, these kinds of unsupported (not addressed in the hand gun load tables in published manuals) complications are utterly frustrating.

Last edited by Gpruitt54; 10-05-2012 at 06:31..
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