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Old 10-03-2012, 21:57   #21
Vic Hays
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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
(Emphasis mine)

(So that I don't tick anybody off, I intend the following as helpful correction, to align your view with a historically orthodox position. I believe you're a little wide of the mark here, and I offer the following as guidance, not criticism. Your passion and sincerity is worthy of Apollos, but I think you may have been misled somewhere in your walk.)

Yes, you are saved from your sin, but you are also saved in your sin. We can't go 5 minutes without sinning.

The personal outworking of that holiness, no matter how hard 1 try will be feeble, inadequate, and more blemished than we can imagine -- even more, if we think for a minute that we can attain some kind of holiness in ourselves if we only try hard enough.

Nice thread topic though.
To abandon all hope of reflecting the image of Jesus is philosophy directly from satan. What you are expounding is cheap grace. You expect a 100 percent discount.


Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Philippians 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Philippians 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Do you think that Sons of God is only a philosophical phrase?

Does God have no power in your life?
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

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Old 10-04-2012, 08:10   #22
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Those who choose to believe (walk with Jesus and live for Him) are saved by grace through faith.

Yes we are still in our fleshly bodies and still have the capacity to sin. As Paul says, "where sin abounds, grace much more abounds" but he also said that we shouldn't continue in sin so that grace can abound. God loves us yes, but too many seem to get mixed up in that they believe God is also accepting of sin. Perhaps they see that He loves us and they take it to mean that He is accepting them even though they are sinners, so sin must not be a big deal to Him. No.

It's obvious that God despises sin, and I will agree that if we sin that the Holy Spirit (I'm speaking of Spirit filled believers of Yahshua Ha Mashiach) doesn't leave us, but convicts us. But we must have a repentant heart...He sees and knows our hearts so we aren't fooling anyone but ourselves. Committing a sin isn't the same as living in sin.

If I sin then I repent immediately. However if a certain aspect of my life is altogether sinful and I think it's okay (or worse think that God is accepting of it), that's another story altogether...like living with your boyfriend or girlfriend as an example. In James Ch. 1 we read : We are tempted (God doesn't tempt us) when we are drawn away by our own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

God isn't going to accept sin, He isn't going to accept death. Sin brings forth death but Jesus came that we might have life and have it more abundantly.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:29   #23
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Sin is the physical manifestation of what is inside of you. The act itself is not the sin, but the driving thought is.

If I get angry and use profanity towards that person, the utterances are relatively meaningless compared to the willingness inside of me to curse another.

I (we) need to offer ourselves to the risen Lord during those times to overcome this horrible nature that lives inside all of us. Romans 7:14-25 has helped me to understand the dichotomy of my nature.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:32   #24
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Sin is the physical manifestation of what is inside of you. The act itself is not the sin, but the driving thought is.

If I get angry and use profanity towards that person, the utterances are relatively meaningless compared to the willingness inside of me to curse another.

I (we) need to offer ourselves to the risen Lord during those times to overcome this horrible nature that lives inside all of us. Romans 7:14-25 has helped me to understand the dichotomy of my nature.
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Old 10-04-2012, 11:43   #25
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Oh man, my driving thoughts have me going straight to hades, I can't even go out in public, especially in the summertime in a resort town. I'd be in jail for a lot of thoughts.
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Old 10-04-2012, 13:08   #26
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Since sin and sinful thoughts seem to have a hold on us that we cannot break many take the attitude that God will save us anyway even if we give up our faith that Jesus will save us.

Let's have some encouraging words from Jesus himself on the subject.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.
John 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
John 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Jesus promised that we would not be a servant of sin and that He can make us free from sin.

Have some faith.
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Old 10-04-2012, 14:29   #27
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God saves right in the midst of sin. The relationship does not stop because sin is present. The emphasis is the goodness of God, and not the badness of sin.
God is good, pure good and pure love. But He is also the Righteous Judge my friend.

Isaiah 59:2 says this: "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; And your sins have hidden His face from you."

Sounds like sin has a way of creating a wedge between us and our Creator. True repentance cures this.

God sent His Son to save us, failure to recognize Him as the one who paid the price for our sins means you need to get on the ball:

1 John 5:10-13 "He who believes in the Son of God has the testimony in himself. He who doesn't believe God has made him a liar, because he has not believed in the testimony that God has given concerning his Son. The testimony is this, that God gave to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son, has the life. He who doesn't have God's Son doesn't have the life."
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Old 10-04-2012, 18:01   #28
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To abandon all hope of reflecting the image of Jesus is philosophy directly from satan. What you are expounding is cheap grace. You expect a 100 percent discount.

Does God have no power in your life?
Vic... (and maybe SDGlock23, can't tell yet):

I was over the top in the analogy for a reason. It was an extreme position, but I did it to emphasize the fact that we are saved entirely by an alien righteousness that is imputed to us -- it is not infused in us, nor does it inhere in us. It is outside of us. We are not inherently righteous, nor can we be. As I said, no true believer would live to antinomian extremes without crippling guilt and swift repentance, and if he tried, he wouldn't live long -- like the people in Acts who abused the Lord's Supper. They 'slept' early.

Let me put it this way: the verses you choose suggest that you believe we CAN be holy in ourselves. Our holiness (to be set apart) is positional, not practical. God sets us apart. You remind me of the writings of Finney, and the music of Keith Green ("and my friends, the difference between the sheep and the goats is what they did, and didn't, DO!" "Give it your best, pray that it's blessed, and He'll take care of the rest.")

No. No He won't. He takes care of it all, and if you are truly redeemed, you will struggle against sin more and more during your lifelong sanctification. Your conscience will hound you. The guy in Romans 7 "I do what I would not, and that which I would, I do not" was Paul. No one is saying we should take forgiveness and then live as if we presume upon it. I was just standing up to the idea that 'holy' living is a condition of our salvation. Everything Jesus did for us, He did while we were dead in trespasses and sins, and could do nothing to help ourselves. Are we restored to the pre-Fall position? Posse peccare et posse non peccare? I can't say for sure. But don't burden young believers who might wander in here (God help them) with requirements of the law that you can't 'lift a finger' to help with.
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Old 10-04-2012, 22:02   #29
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Vic... (and maybe SDGlock23, can't tell yet):

I was over the top in the analogy for a reason. It was an extreme position, but I did it to emphasize the fact that we are saved entirely by an alien righteousness that is imputed to us -- it is not infused in us, nor does it inhere in us. It is outside of us. We are not inherently righteous, nor can we be. As I said, no true believer would live to antinomian extremes without crippling guilt and swift repentance, and if he tried, he wouldn't live long -- like the people in Acts who abused the Lord's Supper. They 'slept' early.

Let me put it this way: the verses you choose suggest that you believe we CAN be holy in ourselves.
Never said we can be Holy by ourselves. If the Holy Spirit is inside you then how can God's holiness be outside of you? What you are suggesting is that you can be saved by making a partial commitment to Christ. That is a false hope of salvation.

I also never said that I never sin. I hope to recognize such and repent when I do.

Being saved is a process. The fruit of the Spirit is to be more and more manifest in our lives.

Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Galatians 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
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John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

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Old 10-08-2012, 16:50   #30
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John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

That is the promise from God. Accept what is offered by Christ and you are SAVED...Period. Nothing further is required......Once saved always saved. How you lived your life as a Born again Christian determines IF you receive blessings of God and what they will be.

If John 3:16 is not true and an absolute promise.....then God lied...which He can not and will not do.

God knows we can not meet His highest goals....what He expects is that we try and when we fail ask forgiveness and try again. BUT our failures DO NOT jeopardize our entrance into Heaven only the blessings we could have received.
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Old 10-08-2012, 17:26   #31
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That is the promise from God. Accept what is offered by Christ and you are SAVED...Period. Nothing further is required......Once saved always saved. How you lived your life as a Born again Christian determines IF you receive blessings of God and what they will be.

If John 3:16 is not true and an absolute promise.....then God lied...which He can not and will not do.

God knows we can not meet His highest goals....what He expects is that we try and when we fail ask forgiveness and try again. BUT our failures DO NOT jeopardize our entrance into Heaven only the blessings we could have received.
Could you please show a verse in the Bible that states once saved always saved?

Every Bible I have ever read stated only those that endure to the end shall be saved!
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Old 10-08-2012, 18:06   #32
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That is the promise from God. Accept what is offered by Christ and you are SAVED...Period. Nothing further is required......Once saved always saved. How you lived your life as a Born again Christian determines IF you receive blessings of God and what they will be.

If John 3:16 is not true and an absolute promise.....then God lied...which He can not and will not do.
Not at all.

The key is the word that we translate as "believes." It is the word in Greek. It carries with it not mere mental assent (as "Even the demons believe--and shudder"), but also the connotation of TRUST, FOLLOW, and even OBEY.

Notice how St. John's Gospel treats "believes" as the opposite, not of "disbelieves," but the opposite of "obey.":

Joh 3:36 He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him.

You should read John 3:16 and eternal security. It's a short article. Here are some highlights:
Before we start, I should say a little about action words. In Greek, the language of the New Testament, there are many tenses for verbs. We will discuss two: aorist and present. To put it simply, the Aorist tense describes one point in time, [Aorist Tense: The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without regard for past, present, or future time. There is no direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations. The events described by the aorist tense are classified into a number of categories by grammarians. The three most common of these are (1) a view of the action as having begun from a certain point ("inceptive aorist"), or (2) having ended at a certain point ("cumulative aorist"), or (3) merely existing at a certain point ("punctiliar aorist"). The categorization of other cases can be found in Greek reference grammars. The English reader need not concern himself with most of these finer points concerning the aorist tense, since in most cases they cannot be rendered accurately in English translation, being fine points of Greek exegesis only. The common practice of rendering an aorist by a simple English past tense suffices in most cases.] while the present tense is used for current, ongoing action.[Present Tense: According to Dana and Manatee in their Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, "The fundamental significance of the present tense is the idea of progress. It is the linear tense . . . the progressive force of the present tense should always be considered as primary, especially with reference to the potential moods, which in the nature of the case do not need any 'present punctiliar' tense." Narrowing it down further, they say, "There are three varieties of the present tense in which its fundamental idea of progress is especially patent. Under 'the progressive present: "This use is manifestly nearest the root idea of the tense. It signifies action in progress , or state of persistence." In short the present tense expresses ongoing action in the present time.] Another way of contrasting the two is to think of Aorist as being geometrically represented by a point, and present by a continuous line. With this basic understanding, lets look at John 3:16:

"For God so loved [aorist, a past point in time] the world, that he gave [aorist, a past point in time] his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth [present, current, progressive action] in him should not perish [aorist, a past point in time], but have [present, current, progressive action] everlasting life."

The present tense, "that whosoever believeth in him," or in other words, "that whosoever is believing in Him" sheds a different light on the entire verse. One would expect, according to Protestant tradition, the word "believe" to be aorist, showing that it is a "one-point-in-time" event. I used to say, "I believed in Christ on such and such a date, so I know I am saved." It could be asked why Jesus switched to the present tense in a verse full of aorists. The answer is that Jesus makes it utterly clear what he is really trying to say; that this belief is an acting, continual belief, and not just a past act of faith.
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God knows we can not meet His highest goals....what He expects is that we try and when we fail ask forgiveness and try again. BUT our failures DO NOT jeopardize our entrance into Heaven only the blessings we could have received.
The first part is true; we are to repent daily for our sins.

HOWEVER, there are sins which kill our relationship with God. We Catholics call them "mortal" sins, as does St. James:
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Old 10-08-2012, 22:34   #33
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"For God so loved [aorist, a past point in time] the world, that he gave [aorist, a past point in time] his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth [present, current, progressive action] in him should not perish [aorist, a past point in time], but have [present, current, progressive action] everlasting life."
Nice.

Like I have been saying.........saved is a present moment reality. It has nothing to do with the future. It has to do with relationship in the moment.
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Old 10-09-2012, 00:02   #34
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The present tense, "that whosoever believeth in him," or in other words, "that whosoever is believing in Him" sheds a different light on the entire verse. One would expect, according to Protestant tradition, the word "believe" to be aorist, showing that it is a "one-point-in-time" event. I used to say, "I believed in Christ on such and such a date, so I know I am saved." It could be asked why Jesus switched to the present tense in a verse full of aorists. The answer is that Jesus makes it utterly clear what he is really trying to say; that this belief is an acting, continual belief, and not just a past act of faith.

Yes, to understand the Bible correctly requires that associated verses are in harmony. Example:

Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

There is more to believing than mere intellectual assent.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
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Old 10-09-2012, 07:34   #35
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I'd like to point out that you guys argue no matter what. You're always blaming it on us dirty Atheists but you can't even agree with one another. The religious simply enjoy conflict. It's in their nature.
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:23   #36
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I have to trust that God will be faithful in His promises to me, because if salvation was based on my holiness or ability to choose not to sin, I am sunk.

I know God created me and knows my every thought, word and action. He knows my weaknesses and sinfulness. To become sinless as Vic suggests is impossible for me. I love God with all my heart, but there appears to be a part of me that has no problem doing the wrong thing. I know I am doing wrong, but do it nonetheless. I am filled with guilt and remorse. I think that a man who has been saved as long as I have would be this wonderfully awesome guy who always does holy stuff...

I know Paul suffered with the same things, but I am not Paul. Guilt is my middle name. I look forward to the day when sinning doesn't come so easily.

So the question I pose is this:

Is is the conviction of the Holy Spirit in me...




...or lies from the accuser of the brethren?
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Old 10-09-2012, 14:28   #37
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I'd like to point out that you guys argue no matter what. You're always blaming it on us dirty Atheists but you can't even agree with one another. The religious simply enjoy conflict. It's in their nature.
Good point, when have two atheists ever gotten into an argument here? I can't think of a single example.
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Old 10-09-2012, 15:35   #38
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Good point, when have two atheists ever gotten into an argument here? I can't think of a single example.
Some would call that an echo chamber.
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:13   #39
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Good point, when have two atheists ever gotten into an argument here? I can't think of a single example.
I believe psychologists refer to it as "Groupthink"
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Old 10-09-2012, 16:46   #40
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Could you please show a verse in the Bible that states once saved always saved?

Every Bible I have ever read stated only those that endure to the end shall be saved!
Have you ever considered what is written about Angels? They were created as servants. Not given God's Spirit but told what to say and do without having their feelings to deal with.Disobedience is unacceptable.No faith involved. The ones that chose to follow their own feelings/knowledge were cast out and left to make due without the knowledge of God. Man on the other hand was given at creation the knowledge but forfeited it for his own knowledge. If unlike the Angels, God gives Man His forgiveness and His Spirit and knowledge through rebirth, how can the born again spirit die? If you choose to follow your own way against God's wishes,your way is dead and your flesh dies but your spirit lives. The way of the fallen angel is defeated.
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