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Old 10-02-2012, 22:26   #51
gotin
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For some reason everybody likes banning things. How about offering incentives to keep the babies if that is the big deal?
If those women are offered prenatal care and then families that will adopt the child, I'm sure many will chose to do it.
And since when bans work? How many women died or got hurt during illegal abortions before they were legalized?
BTW, I'd rather pay for condoms or abortions than house the unwanted child in various juvenile and adult correction facilities. Because that's where most of these kids will end up if they are born.
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Old 10-02-2012, 22:28   #52
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For some reason everybody likes banning things. How about offering incentives to keep the babies if that is the big deal?
If those women are offered prenatal care and then families that will adopt the child, I'm sure many will chose to do it.
And since when bans work? How many women died or got hurt during illegal abortions before they were legalized?
BTW, I'd rather pay for condoms or abortions than house the unwanted child in various juvenile and adult correction facilities. Because that's where most of these kids will end up if they are born.
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Old 10-02-2012, 22:50   #53
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I do not believe abortion is moral, but it's a dead issue.

The Supreme Court created the right of a woman to have an abortion and banned states from preventing it. There is no appeal, it's over.

Pro life groups should lobby, march and provide education to try and convince woman not to have one, but as far as banning abortion it's a dead issue.

Let's move on.
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:03   #54
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As you know, when it comes to humans there are four main schools of thought on this. There is the neurological view, which it sounds like you are espousing, that says "personhood" (if not actual human life) begins with brainwave activity, then there is the embryologic view, which holds that life begins with gastrulation at about 14-17 days after conception. There is also the genetic view, which holds that human life starts at conception when a novel genome is created, and rounding the field out is the at-or-near-birth view which goes by the standard of viability outside the womb.

While you may privately hold that the neurological view is the correct one (please correct me if I am wrong on your beliefs here), there is no denying that a great many biologists, geneticists and doctors hold with the other schools of thought, especially the genetic and embryological schools. There is simply too much congressional testimony, white papers and published research from leading experts in these disciplines to deny that such is the case.

As I have said, it is a very split field, and I'm not attempting to state which school of thought is "right". Hell, the scientists themselves don't agree on it, but to argue as kalashnikev did that NO scientists believe human life starts at conception is simply wrong.
I don't know of any esteemed or credible ones personaly, but i'm sure you will find some out there. In my field we call them outliers . But seriously, yes there are some out there.

However, I don't see you jumping on the generalization that Kalishnikev was quoting.
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:12   #55
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So give life the benefit of the doubt? There are alternatives to abortion. Every soul deserves a chance.
Would it be crazy of me to think that souls, if they exist, don't occur until a human is old enough to think?

Whats the point of having a soul if you can't think.
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:20   #56
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interesting, do you pick the amount of time using science, or is it arbitrary?
Yes. it's called an EEG. It measures brain activity.
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:34   #57
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Would it be crazy of me to think that souls, if they exist, don't occur until a human is old enough to think?

Whats the point of having a soul if you can't think.
Just needs a little time.
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:42   #58
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Just needs a little time.
At least we are not debating on whether or not viruses are alive.
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Old 10-02-2012, 23:48   #59
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I'm sure viruses don't think, but have a hell of an impact on those who do. Ain't life funny?
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Old 10-03-2012, 01:46   #60
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I'm sure viruses don't think, but have a hell of an impact on those who do. Ain't life funny?
true. They have impacted society more than get credit for.

Interesting correlation, and further thread derail, near passing of comets and outbreaks of plague, coincidence or evidence of panspermia?
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:02   #61
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No matter what the GT braintrust thinks, this a topic that by an large women side with Obama on. I think you will find that a very high (i would suspect close to 75%) of women will be more on the side of the Dems than the Repub when it comes to reproductive issues.

There are some mainstream religions who (read catholic) who believe contraception is immoral and if they could would force their beliefs on the rest of the country.

And everyone who says women should just learn to keep their legs together and this wouldnt happen, what say you about cases of rape? Should a woman, through no choice of her own, became pregnant be forced to have the baby? After all, if she had just not made the choices she did....

What do you say about abortion when the mother and baby are at risk of dying and the baby is not yet developed enough to survive (this does happen). We (as in humans) make choices all the time that other humans shouldnt live or being in society for the benefit of others. We execute these people, throw them in jail.

I have often wondered, how can someone be for execution and against abortion on moral grounds. Killing someone who isnt an direct threat to your life (for example someone on death row) is murder its just murder than is justified by society. This means that anyone who can justify executions by definition believes that murder is acceptable given the correct set of conditions. After this, it is just arguing what those conditions are. I would think if you are opposed to murder, your are opposed to murder.

All in all, this is a winning slogan for Obama to get female votes.
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:35   #62
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You can argue this issue until you're blue in the face, and probably well beyond that. What gets me is that Planned Parenthood received almost half a billion dollars in tax payer monies. As of now, you have the legal right to have an abortion. Why, however, should I be paying for your mistake? Pay for your own abortion! Or get the guy to pay for it.
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Old 10-03-2012, 06:48   #63
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You can argue this issue until you're blue in the face, and probably well beyond that. What gets me is that Planned Parenthood received almost half a billion dollars in tax payer monies. As of now, you have the legal right to have an abortion. Why, however, should I be paying for your mistake? Pay for your own abortion! Or get the guy to pay for it.
Just looking at the money, paying for an abortion is WAY cheaper than paying for a new welfare recipient.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:06   #64
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Just looking at the money, paying for an abortion is WAY cheaper than paying for a new welfare recipient.
Personally, I'd rather pay for neither....
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:12   #65
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Personally, I'd rather pay for neither....
There is a ton of stuff I'd rather not pay for. That isn't really working out for me.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:13   #66
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Personally, I'd rather pay for neither....
There are lot of things I would not to pay for.....doesnt make it reality...
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:15   #67
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...snip...


I have often wondered, how can someone be for execution and against abortion on moral grounds. Killing someone who isnt an direct threat to your life (for example someone on death row) is murder its just murder than is justified by society. This means that anyone who can justify executions by definition believes that murder is acceptable given the correct set of conditions. After this, it is just arguing what those conditions are. I would think if you are opposed to murder, your are opposed to murder.

All in all, this is a winning slogan for Obama to get female votes.
I believe your interchanging of murder and killing is possibly the confusion. In your example of killing a death row inmate, this person committed a crime against society that has been determined punishment is by death.... a cause and effect. The killing of a baby, who has not committed any crime against society, is terminated, killed, murdered. Just remember, murder is unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of a human being.

There are some who don't like it either way. I don't side with them. I'm a firm believer in paying your debt to society after one has inflicted their damage to society.

I'm personally against the killing of a baby for convenience.



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Old 10-03-2012, 07:16   #68
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Originally Posted by RenoF250 View Post
Abortion is for the convenience of the idiots. Birth control works and when it don't you know within a month and can "abort" with black cohosh or the like.
Todd Aiken... is that YOU???



I had to google it, but "Black Cohosh" is a dietary supplement that might have some effect in treating hot flashes in menopausal women.

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/Bla...hProfessional/

Did you think it was Plan B??

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Someone explain the logic that allows the woman to decide to go to term and make the man pay child support but if she wants to abort he has no say???????
You need someone to explain... the logic?

Because it's her lady parts.

Next question...


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Originally Posted by gotin View Post
For some reason everybody likes banning things. How about offering incentives to keep the babies if that is the big deal?
How about the government just STFU and lets people do what they want without interference. This would apply to their actions as well as their bodies. Yeah... that's a good idea!
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:17   #69
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I do not believe abortion is moral, but it's a dead issue.

The Supreme Court created the right of a woman to have an abortion and banned states from preventing it. There is no appeal, it's over.

Pro life groups should lobby, march and provide education to try and convince woman not to have one, but as far as banning abortion it's a dead issue.

Let's move on.
You're right. But there are some people who are never going to stop trying to make abortion illegal by whatever way possible. And those people are in the republican party.
Just like the anti-gunners are never going to stop, and they joined the democrats.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:24   #70
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Just remember, murder is unlawful killing, with malice aforethought, of a human being.
By yoru definition of murder, then neither would be murder since abortion is not unlawful, it isnt murder. It is lawful killing just like a self defense shooting or execution.
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Old 10-03-2012, 07:46   #71
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They do have the choice to NOT get pregnant don't they?

I am not religious, nor am I a pro-lifer, but please, let's be honest here.

The bottom line is that IN GENERAL stupid people get pregnant unintentionally, and stupid people get abortions. All in all it tends to work out OK with it reducing the amount of stupid people, but let's call a spade a spade.

Aborting an unwanted fetus/embryo/child whatever is a seriously lame way to deal with an easily preventable problem.
Birth control can and does fail, I have a set of 7yr olds that were born in spite of the fact that the Mrs. took the pill like clockwork.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:03   #72
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By yoru definition of murder, then neither would be murder since abortion is not unlawful, it isnt murder. It is lawful killing just like a self defense shooting or execution.
^^^
Bingo!

In addition, that's why I phrased my comments as I am against killing a baby for convenience.

Currently, our laws allow the killing of a baby/fetus in the womb.




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Old 10-03-2012, 08:18   #73
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SIMPLE ANWSER to this issue - If you don't want to pay for Birth Conrtol KEEP YOUR LEGS TOGETHER!
Pretty simple.

Or use birth control.

Just don't ask me to pay for it.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:34   #74
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No matter what the GT braintrust thinks, this a topic that by an large women side with Obama on. I think you will find that a very high (i would suspect close to 75%) of women will be more on the side of the Dems than the Repub when it comes to reproductive issues.

There are some mainstream religions who (read catholic) who believe contraception is immoral and if they could would force their beliefs on the rest of the country.

And everyone who says women should just learn to keep their legs together and this wouldnt happen, what say you about cases of rape? Should a woman, through no choice of her own, became pregnant be forced to have the baby? After all, if she had just not made the choices she did....

What do you say about abortion when the mother and baby are at risk of dying and the baby is not yet developed enough to survive (this does happen). We (as in humans) make choices all the time that other humans shouldnt live or being in society for the benefit of others. We execute these people, throw them in jail.

I have often wondered, how can someone be for execution and against abortion on moral grounds. Killing someone who isnt an direct threat to your life (for example someone on death row) is murder its just murder than is justified by society. This means that anyone who can justify executions by definition believes that murder is acceptable given the correct set of conditions. After this, it is just arguing what those conditions are. I would think if you are opposed to murder, your are opposed to murder.

All in all, this is a winning slogan for Obama to get female votes.

Rape is simple to handle:

Victim carries baby until term and puts baby up for adoption if she chooses. Rapist pays for 100% of the pregnant woman's care. If he doesn't have enough money, his organs are harvested and sold to make up the difference.

Problem solved.

(I despise rapists and consider them sub-human btw).

In reality though rape and incest are a very small percentage of abortions (I've heard less than 1%). I could agree with a system where abortions are sanctioned in the cases you named (especially since a rape is going to be handled very early I would think) - this includes the cases where the mother's life is at risk.

It just sickens me that people think they can have an abortion just because having a baby is "inconvenient." I also get sick of people intentionally having children out of wedlock. However, that is a moral issue and not really the government's problem to handle. In reality they both are outside of defining abortion as murder or not.

What it comes down to is, as a society, we have decided that actions should not have consequences. This is fundamentally wrong. Anything you do - from buying a car to driving to work to having sex out of wedlock can have ramifications and consequences.

A lot of this gets simpler if we could be sure when a baby is indeed "alive." If it is at 14 days, then most of the issues with rape go away since the "abortion pill" could be administered well before then.
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Old 10-03-2012, 08:34   #75
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No matter what the GT braintrust thinks, this a topic that by an large women side with Obama on. I think you will find that a very high (i would suspect close to 75%) of women will be more on the side of the Dems than the Repub when it comes to reproductive issues.
Actually, America as a whole has been swinging to the "Pro-life" side of the issue over the past few years and a majority of Americans now identify themselves as "pro-life" - this includes a majority of WOMEN who now identify as "pro-life" as well.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/118399/Mo...irst-Time.aspx

Many Democrats CLAIM to speak for women on this issue, but in typical fashion they don't bother to check with the women first to see what they might actually think.

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