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Old 10-02-2012, 18:22   #26
tsmo1066
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
There are no scientists who say life begins at conception.
Not true. In fact, many of the world's leading geneticists and biologists have testified before Congress that not only does life begin at conception, but that there is no other viable scientific definition for what constitutes the beginning of a human life.

http://www.humanlife.org/abortion_scientists_attest.php

Modern science is as split on this issue as the rest of us.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:30   #27
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Didn't blow my Kilt up...... just more political pandering.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:46   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post

http://www.humanlife.org/abortion_scientists_attest.php

Modern science is as split on this issue as the rest of us.
Hmmmm... an anti-Choice think tank, huh?



I'm talking about REAL science! Not creationist, clumpy's-name-is-Jessica, we-found-Noah's-Ark science...

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Old 10-02-2012, 18:47   #29
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Go tell your wimmen to make y'all some sammiches.
And bring beer...lots and lots of beer.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:50   #30
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Originally Posted by GLWyandotte View Post
Give them freedom?
They have it, courtesy of liberal democraps.
And there you have it- I am about protecting freedom AT ALL COSTS. The partisan aspect means nothing to me. I will not squander what freedom any of my fellow Americans have to live in some radical right-wing Christian moralist's ***** control sharia fantasy.

Not happening. Same as a ban on guns, BIG SODA, or smoking.
(I only partake in one of the three)

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Old 10-02-2012, 18:51   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
Hmmmm... an anti-Choice think tank, huh?



I'm talking about REAL science! Not creationist, clumpy's-name-is-Jessica, we-found-Noah's-Ark science...

Read the citations and who they are from.

Regardless of the orientation of the website (very hard to find a neutral site on the abortion topic), the congressional testimony they cite lists the doctors, biologists and geneticists who made the statements.

It simply isn't true to state as fact that there are no credible scientists who believe life starts at conception. It is, in fact, a very mixed field and some of the top authorities on genetics and biology firmly believe that life DOES start at conception.
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Old 10-02-2012, 18:52   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAFinch View Post
When Obamacare's abortion mandate kicks in, everyone will be forced to pay for people to get "free" abortions. Every health provider will be forced to offer them. There will no longer be a live and let live stance on the issue.



Sure there is, you still don't have to get one if you don't want one.
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Old 10-02-2012, 19:53   #33
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I'm really tired of this abortion issue. It's never going to change. Why is it always so high on the political priority list?

I admit I'm going to pull this little statistic directly from my ass. But I'm so sure of it, I'd bet money. I'm sure that the abortion rates have steadily risen since Roe vs. Wade without so much as a blip on the line with the different presidents. Republican or Democrat, there are more abortions carried out during their term than the last president (with a little wiggle room for 1 term presidents). There were more abortions during the Bush years than the Clinton years, and there will be more during the Obama years than the Bush years. There will be more in the next presidents reign than with Obama. Maybe someone not so lazy will chime in to prove me wrong. But I doubt it. The abortion issue needs to be dropped from presidential elections.
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:20   #34
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Originally Posted by KalashniKEV View Post
It would make it much easier to vote Republican if they would give women the freedom to do as they choose with their bodies.
They do have the choice to NOT get pregnant don't they?

I am not religious, nor am I a pro-lifer, but please, let's be honest here.

The bottom line is that IN GENERAL stupid people get pregnant unintentionally, and stupid people get abortions. All in all it tends to work out OK with it reducing the amount of stupid people, but let's call a spade a spade.

Aborting an unwanted fetus/embryo/child whatever is a seriously lame way to deal with an easily preventable problem.
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:22   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Read the citations and who they are from.

Regardless of the orientation of the website (very hard to find a neutral site on the abortion topic), the congressional testimony they cite lists the doctors, biologists and geneticists who made the statements.

It simply isn't true to state as fact that there are no credible scientists who believe life starts at conception. It is, in fact, a very mixed field and some of the top authorities on genetics and biology firmly believe that life DOES start at conception.
And it is a fact the a fetus can survive after 6 months and by all definition is a life from that point on but the pro-choice people will not admit that either. Some garbage about well it could not survive on its own. A 5 YEAR OLD CAN"T LIVE ON THEIR OWN EITHER YOU MORONS!!

Abortion is for the convenience of the idiots. Birth control works and when it don't you know within a month and can "abort" with black cohosh or the like.

Someone explain the logic that allows the woman to decide to go to term and make the man pay child support but if she wants to abort he has no say???????
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:24   #36
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Originally Posted by gjk5 View Post
They do have the choice to NOT get pregnant don't they?

I am not religious, nor am I a pro-lifer, but please, let's be honest here.

The bottom line is that IN GENERAL stupid people get pregnant unintentionally, and stupid people get abortions. All in all it tends to work out OK with it reducing the amount of stupid people, but let's call a spade a spade.

Aborting an unwanted fetus/embryo/child whatever is a seriously lame way to deal with an easily preventable problem.
Wow, some of the most clear and direct writing I have seen.
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:30   #37
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Someone explain the logic that allows the woman to decide to go to term and make the man pay child support but if she wants to abort he has no say???????
don't be silly, the man has no choice in the matter of course.

this follows the line of complete garbage logic the left uses to justify killing for convenience. By all rights the two have equal genetic material involved, logically a man should be able to say "I hereby absolve myself of any responsibility for that child, otherwise gimme back my sperms or forget yer child support".

It doesn't really matter though, the huge majority of the time Uncle Sugar ends up being the baby daddy.
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:31   #38
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Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
It's not that I don't get it. I don't believe life starts until weeks after conception. So I have ZERO problem with destroying embryos. Now, 7 or 8 weeks in we have a problem.
interesting, do you pick the amount of time using science, or is it arbitrary?
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:34   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GAFinch View Post
When Obamacare's abortion mandate kicks in, everyone will be forced to pay for people to get "free" abortions. Every health provider will be forced to offer them. There will no longer be a live and let live stance on the issue.
I'm not sure what your idea of abortion is or medical practice in general; but it isn't like baking cookies.

The people that have the know how and the equipment to carry out abortions are currently doing so. The people that are not currently offering abortions either don't have the equipment or they don't have the know how. That is never going to change.

You can pay for:
A) an abortion
B) food stamps, school lunch, medical care, housing, ect for a period of 18 years+ years.

personally, from a purely political/economical standpoint... I'd choose option A.
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:49   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by el_jewapo View Post
I'm really tired of this abortion issue. It's never going to change. Why is it always so high on the political priority list?

I admit I'm going to pull this little statistic directly from my ass. But I'm so sure of it, I'd bet money. I'm sure that the abortion rates have steadily risen since Roe vs. Wade without so much as a blip on the line with the different presidents. Republican or Democrat, there are more abortions carried out during their term than the last president (with a little wiggle room for 1 term presidents). There were more abortions during the Bush years than the Clinton years, and there will be more during the Obama years than the Bush years. There will be more in the next presidents reign than with Obama. Maybe someone not so lazy will chime in to prove me wrong. But I doubt it. The abortion issue needs to be dropped from presidential elections.
You would lose money on that bet. The abortion rate climbed through the 70s, but has been dropping steadily since 1980 -- from the graph there does appear to be a slight increase around 89-90.

29 abortions per 1000 women aged 15-44 in 1980 down to 20 abortions per 1000 women aged 15-44 in 2004.

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Old 10-02-2012, 20:57   #41
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You would think Christians wouldnt mind abortion so much. Think of all the souls spared the fate of burning in Hell.
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:59   #42
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Go tell your wimmen to make y'all some sammiches.
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And bring beer...lots and lots of beer.
Ya; and have it opened when you hand it to me!!!
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Old 10-02-2012, 21:09   #43
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I think it's funny that liberals call cons anti science when talking about global climate change. Then when you point out that biologists and other scientist believe life begins at conception (and then say it's a social issue so they dont have to be stuck in the debate) all the sudden "that science is fuzzy" and such. I'm pro-choice, keep aborting all you want. The right kinds of people are getting abortions. Don't tell me its a bundle of tissues. Again, I'm pro-choice.
Both sides make gross generalizations. Like the one you just made.

I'm a biologist and I don't believe that life begins at conception.

There is no brain activity until 40ish days after conception. So I defer to the philosophy:

"I think, therefore I am." ~Descartes

Life starts when you think your first thought IMO.

The really amusing thing here is: Making abortion illegal is like creating a gun free zone. If somebody wants to do it, it's going to happen. Protestant women in early America used to dump illegitimate newborns in the trash piles and toilet holes to avoid judgment from the community. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10297561
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Old 10-02-2012, 21:16   #44
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Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Not true. In fact, many of the world's leading geneticists and biologists have testified before Congress that not only does life begin at conception, but that there is no other viable scientific definition for what constitutes the beginning of a human life.

http://www.humanlife.org/abortion_scientists_attest.php

Modern science is as split on this issue as the rest of us.
If you are using the same definition for life that you assign to Escherichia coli then yes.

Since humans are a more complicated species than arguably any other on the planet, I think we deserve a more evolved definition of life.
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Old 10-02-2012, 21:50   #45
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Since humans are a more complicated species than arguably any other on the planet, I think we deserve a more evolved definition of life.
So give life the benefit of the doubt? There are alternatives to abortion. Every soul deserves a chance.
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Old 10-02-2012, 21:50   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foxtrotx1 View Post
If you are using the same definition for life that you assign to Escherichia coli then yes.

Since humans are a more complicated species than arguably any other on the planet, I think we deserve a more evolved definition of life.
As you know, when it comes to humans there are four main schools of thought on this. There is the neurological view, which it sounds like you are espousing, that says "personhood" (if not actual human life) begins with brainwave activity, then there is the embryologic view, which holds that life begins with gastrulation at about 14-17 days after conception. There is also the genetic view, which holds that human life starts at conception when a novel genome is created, and rounding the field out is the at-or-near-birth view which goes by the standard of viability outside the womb.

While you may privately hold that the neurological view is the correct one (please correct me if I am wrong on your beliefs here), there is no denying that a great many biologists, geneticists and doctors hold with the other schools of thought, especially the genetic and embryological schools. There is simply too much congressional testimony, white papers and published research from leading experts in these disciplines to deny that such is the case.

As I have said, it is a very split field, and I'm not attempting to state which school of thought is "right". Hell, the scientists themselves don't agree on it, but to argue as kalashnikev did that NO scientists believe human life starts at conception is simply wrong.
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Old 10-02-2012, 21:51   #47
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Old 10-02-2012, 21:58   #48
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Originally Posted by The Maggy View Post
I'm not sure what your idea of abortion is or medical practice in general; but it isn't like baking cookies.

The people that have the know how and the equipment to carry out abortions are currently doing so. The people that are not currently offering abortions either don't have the equipment or they don't have the know how. That is never going to change.

You can pay for:
A) an abortion
B) food stamps, school lunch, medical care, housing, ect for a period of 18 years+ years.

personally, from a purely political/economical standpoint... I'd choose option A.
Not true. Religious hospitals and clinics can choose not to offer abortions.

Abortion as a cost-saving plan for society is a fallacy since 1 million legal immigrants and 1-2 million illegal immigrants are brought into this country each year to make up for the low birth rate of our native citizens. While immigration is supposed to be focused on bringing in somewhat qualified people, nowadays only 1% of legal immigrant applications are denied due to lack of potential self-sustainability.
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Old 10-02-2012, 22:00   #49
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Well it's true sadly. The republican party and it's religious army insist that they know whats best for women.
So you advocate stealing my money to pay for some else to murder children? That what the debate is about.
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Old 10-02-2012, 22:05   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
Read the citations and who they are from.

Regardless of the orientation of the website (very hard to find a neutral site on the abortion topic), the congressional testimony they cite lists the doctors, biologists and geneticists who made the statements.

It simply isn't true to state as fact that there are no credible scientists who believe life starts at conception. It is, in fact, a very mixed field and some of the top authorities on genetics and biology firmly believe that life DOES start at conception.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsmo1066 View Post
As you know, when it comes to humans there are four main schools of thought on this. There is the neurological view, which it sounds like you are espousing, that says "personhood" (if not actual human life) begins with brainwave activity, then there is the embryologic view, which holds that life begins with gastrulation at about 14-17 days after conception. There is also the genetic view, which holds that human life starts at conception when a novel genome is created, and rounding the field out is the at-or-near-birth view which goes by the standard of viability outside the womb.

While you may privately hold that the neurological view is the correct one (please correct me if I am wrong on your beliefs here), there is no denying that a great many biologists, geneticists and doctors hold with the other schools of thought, especially the genetic and embryological schools. There is simply too much congressional testimony, white papers and published research from leading experts in these disciplines to deny that such is the case.

As I have said, it is a very split field, and I'm not attempting to state which school of thought is "right". Hell, the scientists themselves don't agree on it, but to argue as kalashnikev did that NO scientists believe human life starts at conception is simply wrong.
But how can you expect anyone to consider your measured and reasoned responses credible without any "rolley eyes" or "rolling on the floor laughing" emoticons? Are you new at this?
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