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Old 10-02-2012, 16:22   #21
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Terminal performance isn't measured in grains.

Also, we are talking "short barrels" here. 4.5" barrels need not apply.
Bullet weight certainly does matter. 1/2mass x velocity squared is the formula for kinetic energy. The bullet weight in grains times the velocity equals the power factor.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:26   #22
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Bullet weight certainly does matter. 1/2mass x velocity squared is the formula for kinetic energy. The bullet weight in grains times the velocity equals the power factor.
Terminal performance is not measured in any of those terms.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:30   #23
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Terminal performance is not measured in any of those terms.
Indeed. I was just offering established formulas for measuring terminal performance. Now anyone can see that bullet weight is a definite factor in determining bullet terminal performance.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:35   #24
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Indeed. I was just offering established formulas for measuring terminal performance. Now anyone can see that bullet weight is a definite factor in determining bullet terminal performance.
In that case you failed miserably.

Nothing you offered is a measure of terminal performance.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:53   #25
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In that case you failed miserably.

Nothing you offered is a measure of terminal performance.
Why must you be so rude? I thought that we were all friends here. Now I fail to see how bullet weight is not a consideration in terminal perforamnce.
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Old 10-02-2012, 16:57   #26
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Why must you be so rude? I thought that we were all friends here. Now I fail to see how bullet weight is not a consideration in terminal perforamnce.
Bullet weight is not a measure of terminal performance.
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Old 10-02-2012, 17:26   #27
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A little correction. Stopped by my local gun shop and no HST's to be found. Ended up with 147gr Gold Dots. Not my first choice but I feel more than comfortable with them. Only good side effect is it's the same brand as my duty round and it will be serving BUG duty.
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:09   #28
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A little correction. Stopped by my local gun shop and no HST's to be found. Ended up with 147gr Gold Dots. Not my first choice but I feel more than comfortable with them. Only good side effect is it's the same brand as my duty round and it will be serving BUG duty.
They should serve you well.
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Old 10-03-2012, 10:53   #29
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Bullet weight is not a measure of terminal performance.
The bullet's weight is one of the determining factors in terminal performance. Sectional density has bullet weight as a factor.
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Old 10-03-2012, 14:02   #30
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When the velocity drops below the threshold of "reliable" expansion for standard, non-premium jacketed hollow points, which is around 1100 fps, the heavy bullet tend to perform better than the lighter weight bullets. Usually there is lot less muzzle flash and blast from a short barrel with heavy bullet too. Even premium 9mm bullets are usually designed for velocities from a 4 inch barrel. The heavy bullets tend to lose less velocity with shorter barrels and are closer to the design velocities. The lighter weight bullets often lose the advantage of high velocity over heavy bullets they have with longer barrels when fired from short barrels. The other theory, which doesn't seem to hold true often, is the best bullet and bullet weight in a given caliber is still the best when from a shorter barrel. If I'm using ammunition and / or a barrel length where I can't get 1100 fps, I usually prefer a heavy bullet but over 1100 fps, the faster bullets tend to show better performance.
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Old 10-04-2012, 10:07   #31
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When the velocity drops below the threshold of "reliable" expansion for standard, non-premium jacketed hollow points, which is around 1100 fps, the heavy bullet tend to perform better than the lighter weight bullets. Usually there is lot less muzzle flash and blast from a short barrel with heavy bullet too. Even premium 9mm bullets are usually designed for velocities from a 4 inch barrel. The heavy bullets tend to lose less velocity with shorter barrels and are closer to the design velocities. The lighter weight bullets often lose the advantage of high velocity over heavy bullets they have with longer barrels when fired from short barrels. The other theory, which doesn't seem to hold true often, is the best bullet and bullet weight in a given caliber is still the best when from a shorter barrel. If I'm using ammunition and / or a barrel length where I can't get 1100 fps, I usually prefer a heavy bullet but over 1100 fps, the faster bullets tend to show better performance.
Can a 9mm 147gr JHP be safely driven over 1100FPS?
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Old 10-04-2012, 14:18   #32
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Can a 9mm 147gr JHP be safely driven over 1100FPS?
No, the idea is since the barrel is so short, 1100 fps can't be reached with standard pressure ammunition, that a heavier will preform best. Also the heavier bullets are closer to the design velocities when fired in shorter barrels. Compare the difference of a 115 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel, a 124 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel and a 147 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel. Then look at their velocities from a 3 inch barrel. The 124 grain bullet will usually catch up to the 115 grain in velocity but the 147 grain bullet will lose the least amount of velocity, even though it's still going slower than the lighter weight bullets.
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Old 10-05-2012, 10:20   #33
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No, the idea is since the barrel is so short, 1100 fps can't be reached with standard pressure ammunition, that a heavier will preform best. Also the heavier bullets are closer to the design velocities when fired in shorter barrels. Compare the difference of a 115 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel, a 124 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel and a 147 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel. Then look at their velocities from a 3 inch barrel. The 124 grain bullet will usually catch up to the 115 grain in velocity but the 147 grain bullet will lose the least amount of velocity, even though it's still going slower than the lighter weight bullets.
I am thinking about switching to 147gr 9x19 G17 for the cold VT winter.
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:20   #34
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I am thinking about switching to 147gr 9x19 G17 for the cold VT winter.
So what do you consider to be a short barrel?
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Old 10-05-2012, 11:45   #35
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So what do you consider to be a short barrel?
In cold weather wintertime - the 147gr JHP. It is like doing at least 900FPS muzzle velocity
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Old 10-05-2012, 15:17   #36
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In cold weather wintertime - the 147gr JHP. It is like doing at least 900FPS muzzle velocity
What do you consider to be a short barrel?
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Old 10-06-2012, 01:35   #37
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...Ended up with 147gr Gold Dots. Not my first choice but I feel more than comfortable with them. Only good side effect is it's the same brand as my duty round and it will be serving BUG duty.
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They should serve you well.

Before you guys get too smitten with the 147 gr. Gold Dot you might want to take a gander at a thread on another forum by LEO's disparaging the 147 gr. Gold Dot based on street results. It seems as if sometimes we forget that street results always trump shooting gel and water jugs:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...22&whichpage=2
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Old 10-06-2012, 06:07   #38
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Before you guys get too smitten with the 147 gr. Gold Dot you might want to take a gander at a thread on another forum by LEO's disparaging the 147 gr. Gold Dot based on street results. It seems as if sometimes we forget that street results always trump shooting gel and water jugs:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...22&whichpage=2
It seems you believe every fantasy posted on an internet forum as long as it fits your preconceived visions.

Here, here is LEO information from me. I am a retired LEO. I have been involved in 65 shoot outs. Real shoot outs, the old West type. I hunted man in every corner of the continent and most of Europe as a specially deputized US Marshal. I was so good that the USMS issued me Marshal Dillon's star form their museum and authorized me to wear it on fugitive man-hunting operations.

I have 73 one-shot stops out of 68 shootings and they all involved 147JHP's. First we used the OSM loads and when I finished my career we finshed with a special 158 JSP GD load developed by Speer to not exceed 800FPS. The reason we used this load is because of the miserable failures with Federal's 9BPPLE. Yes, BPPLE! It had an extra P just so it could outrun the BPLE if it were fired at the same time by the second biggest gun-fighting agency in the world, the feared ISP!! We wanted our bullets to get there first so we would get the credit.

The ISP, like all highway patrol agencies, was involved in 75 shootings of hardened felons a week at that time (it's gone up since then). Everyone knew they were good gunfighters. We wanted to make sure that our expertise was recognized and wanted out bullets to be the ones that the canoe makers would b e pulling out of the stiffs.

All of this is true. We had 145 cops in my unit killed when their 9BPPLE rounds failed before we swtiched to the 158JSPGD round.
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:46   #39
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,,,Here, here is LEO information from me. I am a retired LEO. I have been involved in 65 shoot outs. Real shoot outs, the old West type. I hunted man in every corner of the continent and most of Europe as a specially deputized US Marshal. I was so good that the USMS issued me Marshal Dillon's star form their museum and authorized me to wear it on fugitive man-hunting operations.

I have 73 one-shot stops out of 68 shootings and they all involved 147JHP's. First we used the OSM loads and when I finished my career we finshed with a special 158 JSP GD load developed by Speer to not exceed 800FPS. The reason we used this load is because of the miserable failures with Federal's 9BPPLE. Yes, BPPLE! It had an extra P just so it could outrun the BPLE if it were fired at the same time by the second biggest gun-fighting agency in the world, the feared ISP!! We wanted our bullets to get there first so we would get the credit.

The ISP, like all highway patrol agencies, was involved in 75 shootings of hardened felons a week at that time (it's gone up since then). Everyone knew they were good gunfighters. We wanted to make sure that our expertise was recognized and wanted out bullets to be the ones that the canoe makers would b e pulling out of the stiffs.

All of this is true. We had 145 cops in my unit killed when their 9BPPLE rounds failed before we swtiched to the 158JSPGD round.

Are you on drugs?
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:08   #40
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What do you consider to be a short barrel?
Less than 4-inches, I guess. Most 9mm in history have had at least a 4-inch barrel.
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