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10-02-2012, 16:22   #21
SCmasterblaster
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Warp Terminal performance isn't measured in grains. Also, we are talking "short barrels" here. 4.5" barrels need not apply.
Bullet weight certainly does matter. 1/2mass x velocity squared is the formula for kinetic energy. The bullet weight in grains times the velocity equals the power factor.
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10-02-2012, 16:26   #22
Warp
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster Bullet weight certainly does matter. 1/2mass x velocity squared is the formula for kinetic energy. The bullet weight in grains times the velocity equals the power factor.
Terminal performance is not measured in any of those terms.
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Last edited by Warp; 10-02-2012 at 16:27..

10-02-2012, 16:30   #23
SCmasterblaster
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Warp Terminal performance is not measured in any of those terms.
Indeed. I was just offering established formulas for measuring terminal performance. Now anyone can see that bullet weight is a definite factor in determining bullet terminal performance.
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10-02-2012, 16:35   #24
Warp
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster Indeed. I was just offering established formulas for measuring terminal performance. Now anyone can see that bullet weight is a definite factor in determining bullet terminal performance.
In that case you failed miserably.

Nothing you offered is a measure of terminal performance.
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Last edited by Warp; 10-02-2012 at 16:35..

10-02-2012, 16:53   #25
SCmasterblaster
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Warp In that case you failed miserably. Nothing you offered is a measure of terminal performance.
Why must you be so rude? I thought that we were all friends here. Now I fail to see how bullet weight is not a consideration in terminal perforamnce.
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10-02-2012, 16:57   #26
Warp
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster Why must you be so rude? I thought that we were all friends here. Now I fail to see how bullet weight is not a consideration in terminal perforamnce.
Bullet weight is not a measure of terminal performance.
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 10-02-2012, 17:26 #27 boomhower Senior Member     Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,327 A little correction. Stopped by my local gun shop and no HST's to be found. Ended up with 147gr Gold Dots. Not my first choice but I feel more than comfortable with them. Only good side effect is it's the same brand as my duty round and it will be serving BUG duty.
10-02-2012, 20:09   #28
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by boomhower A little correction. Stopped by my local gun shop and no HST's to be found. Ended up with 147gr Gold Dots. Not my first choice but I feel more than comfortable with them. Only good side effect is it's the same brand as my duty round and it will be serving BUG duty.
They should serve you well.
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10-03-2012, 10:53   #29
SCmasterblaster
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Warp Bullet weight is not a measure of terminal performance.
The bullet's weight is one of the determining factors in terminal performance. Sectional density has bullet weight as a factor.
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Last edited by SCmasterblaster; 10-03-2012 at 10:55..

 10-03-2012, 14:02 #30 GIockGuy24 Bring M&M's     Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: With Amber Lamps Posts: 4,007 When the velocity drops below the threshold of "reliable" expansion for standard, non-premium jacketed hollow points, which is around 1100 fps, the heavy bullet tend to perform better than the lighter weight bullets. Usually there is lot less muzzle flash and blast from a short barrel with heavy bullet too. Even premium 9mm bullets are usually designed for velocities from a 4 inch barrel. The heavy bullets tend to lose less velocity with shorter barrels and are closer to the design velocities. The lighter weight bullets often lose the advantage of high velocity over heavy bullets they have with longer barrels when fired from short barrels. The other theory, which doesn't seem to hold true often, is the best bullet and bullet weight in a given caliber is still the best when from a shorter barrel. If I'm using ammunition and / or a barrel length where I can't get 1100 fps, I usually prefer a heavy bullet but over 1100 fps, the faster bullets tend to show better performance. __________________ Despite some media reports, there were no AK-47s involved in the incident
10-04-2012, 10:07   #31
SCmasterblaster
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by GIockGuy24 When the velocity drops below the threshold of "reliable" expansion for standard, non-premium jacketed hollow points, which is around 1100 fps, the heavy bullet tend to perform better than the lighter weight bullets. Usually there is lot less muzzle flash and blast from a short barrel with heavy bullet too. Even premium 9mm bullets are usually designed for velocities from a 4 inch barrel. The heavy bullets tend to lose less velocity with shorter barrels and are closer to the design velocities. The lighter weight bullets often lose the advantage of high velocity over heavy bullets they have with longer barrels when fired from short barrels. The other theory, which doesn't seem to hold true often, is the best bullet and bullet weight in a given caliber is still the best when from a shorter barrel. If I'm using ammunition and / or a barrel length where I can't get 1100 fps, I usually prefer a heavy bullet but over 1100 fps, the faster bullets tend to show better performance.
Can a 9mm 147gr JHP be safely driven over 1100FPS?
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10-04-2012, 14:18   #32
GIockGuy24
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster Can a 9mm 147gr JHP be safely driven over 1100FPS?
No, the idea is since the barrel is so short, 1100 fps can't be reached with standard pressure ammunition, that a heavier will preform best. Also the heavier bullets are closer to the design velocities when fired in shorter barrels. Compare the difference of a 115 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel, a 124 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel and a 147 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel. Then look at their velocities from a 3 inch barrel. The 124 grain bullet will usually catch up to the 115 grain in velocity but the 147 grain bullet will lose the least amount of velocity, even though it's still going slower than the lighter weight bullets.
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10-05-2012, 10:20   #33
SCmasterblaster
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by GIockGuy24 No, the idea is since the barrel is so short, 1100 fps can't be reached with standard pressure ammunition, that a heavier will preform best. Also the heavier bullets are closer to the design velocities when fired in shorter barrels. Compare the difference of a 115 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel, a 124 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel and a 147 grain bullet from a 4 inch barrel. Then look at their velocities from a 3 inch barrel. The 124 grain bullet will usually catch up to the 115 grain in velocity but the 147 grain bullet will lose the least amount of velocity, even though it's still going slower than the lighter weight bullets.
I am thinking about switching to 147gr 9x19 G17 for the cold VT winter.
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10-05-2012, 11:20   #34
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster I am thinking about switching to 147gr 9x19 G17 for the cold VT winter.
So what do you consider to be a short barrel?
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10-05-2012, 11:45   #35
SCmasterblaster
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by Warp So what do you consider to be a short barrel?
In cold weather wintertime - the 147gr JHP. It is like doing at least 900FPS muzzle velocity
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10-05-2012, 15:17   #36
Warp
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster In cold weather wintertime - the 147gr JHP. It is like doing at least 900FPS muzzle velocity
What do you consider to be a short barrel?
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10-06-2012, 01:35   #37
Tiro Fijo
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Quote:
 Originally Posted by boomhower ...Ended up with 147gr Gold Dots. Not my first choice but I feel more than comfortable with them. Only good side effect is it's the same brand as my duty round and it will be serving BUG duty.
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Warp They should serve you well.

Before you guys get too smitten with the 147 gr. Gold Dot you might want to take a gander at a thread on another forum by LEO's disparaging the 147 gr. Gold Dot based on street results. It seems as if sometimes we forget that street results always trump shooting gel and water jugs:

http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...22&whichpage=2

10-06-2012, 06:07   #38
WiskyT
Malcontent

Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 11,766
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Tiro Fijo Before you guys get too smitten with the 147 gr. Gold Dot you might want to take a gander at a thread on another forum by LEO's disparaging the 147 gr. Gold Dot based on street results. It seems as if sometimes we forget that street results always trump shooting gel and water jugs: http://www.stoppingpower.net/forum/t...22&whichpage=2
It seems you believe every fantasy posted on an internet forum as long as it fits your preconceived visions.

Here, here is LEO information from me. I am a retired LEO. I have been involved in 65 shoot outs. Real shoot outs, the old West type. I hunted man in every corner of the continent and most of Europe as a specially deputized US Marshal. I was so good that the USMS issued me Marshal Dillon's star form their museum and authorized me to wear it on fugitive man-hunting operations.

I have 73 one-shot stops out of 68 shootings and they all involved 147JHP's. First we used the OSM loads and when I finished my career we finshed with a special 158 JSP GD load developed by Speer to not exceed 800FPS. The reason we used this load is because of the miserable failures with Federal's 9BPPLE. Yes, BPPLE! It had an extra P just so it could outrun the BPLE if it were fired at the same time by the second biggest gun-fighting agency in the world, the feared ISP!! We wanted our bullets to get there first so we would get the credit.

The ISP, like all highway patrol agencies, was involved in 75 shootings of hardened felons a week at that time (it's gone up since then). Everyone knew they were good gunfighters. We wanted to make sure that our expertise was recognized and wanted out bullets to be the ones that the canoe makers would b e pulling out of the stiffs.

All of this is true. We had 145 cops in my unit killed when their 9BPPLE rounds failed before we swtiched to the 158JSPGD round.
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10-06-2012, 11:46   #39
Tiro Fijo
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Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 6,281
Quote:
 Originally Posted by WiskyT ,,,Here, here is LEO information from me. I am a retired LEO. I have been involved in 65 shoot outs. Real shoot outs, the old West type. I hunted man in every corner of the continent and most of Europe as a specially deputized US Marshal. I was so good that the USMS issued me Marshal Dillon's star form their museum and authorized me to wear it on fugitive man-hunting operations. I have 73 one-shot stops out of 68 shootings and they all involved 147JHP's. First we used the OSM loads and when I finished my career we finshed with a special 158 JSP GD load developed by Speer to not exceed 800FPS. The reason we used this load is because of the miserable failures with Federal's 9BPPLE. Yes, BPPLE! It had an extra P just so it could outrun the BPLE if it were fired at the same time by the second biggest gun-fighting agency in the world, the feared ISP!! We wanted our bullets to get there first so we would get the credit. The ISP, like all highway patrol agencies, was involved in 75 shootings of hardened felons a week at that time (it's gone up since then). Everyone knew they were good gunfighters. We wanted to make sure that our expertise was recognized and wanted out bullets to be the ones that the canoe makers would b e pulling out of the stiffs. All of this is true. We had 145 cops in my unit killed when their 9BPPLE rounds failed before we swtiched to the 158JSPGD round.

Are you on drugs?

10-06-2012, 12:08   #40
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member

Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 17,067
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Warp What do you consider to be a short barrel?
Less than 4-inches, I guess. Most 9mm in history have had at least a 4-inch barrel.
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