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Old 09-30-2012, 19:48   #41
CA Escapee
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Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
Dragoon44
It's my understanding -correct me if I'm wrong - but unless the officer observes the vehicle speeding they can't charge or write a ticket on the observation of a non LEO ie civilian.
If this is the case, what was the justification for the stop to begin with.
I agree. I thought the officer's probable cause was shakey in the first place. The officer really made the stop based on what another (phantom) motorist said, but he didn't observe the alleged violation?

Bill

Last edited by CA Escapee; 09-30-2012 at 19:56..
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Old 09-30-2012, 19:54   #42
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If units are availalbe, and are close-by enough, the agency will likely make an effort to correct the reported problem. I don't know if in your two situations, the LE agency had unit(s) available or close-by enough to intercept in a timely basis.
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Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
Nah, I just think it goes back to the fact that they really can't legally do anything based on one person's call. For example, someone could have been pissed off about being stuck behind a slow driver in the fast lane and figured they could call in a complaint on them about reckless driving and get them in trouble. There's no way to prove or disprove if a complaint is valid in that situation. So I understand that. But in this particular case, if the deputy didn't actually witness any reckless driving or other traffic infractions when he caught up to the MC, does he still have a reason to pull him over? If he doesn't observe some kind of illegal activity or traffic infraction, what is the point in pulling him over? I don't think he could cite the guy based on someone else's observation of an alleged traffic violation, could he?
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post
That matches my experience, Patchman.

On an interstate after dark in a populated area, I used my cell to report a zooming and weaving driver, who was doing at least 85 in a 60 (my wife was driving) but I didn't expect the cops to do anything -- how could they?

Luckily, they just happened to have a car nearby, and they nailed his stupid, drunk/high ass a mere 3 miles down the interstate. The cop was stopped at the exit just waiting, and turned the lights on when the SUV was 200 yards away.

Seriously though, the interchange 3 miles ahead of where he was stopped has killed a lot of people.

Based on the tone of voice from the operator, I conclude that area law enforcement (dispatchers included) take drunk/reckless reports especially seriously. She questioned me in a manner that was clearly designed to get the important facts from me very quickly.
Well TDC20, I guess everyone's mileage will differ.
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Old 09-30-2012, 20:42   #43
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Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
Dragoon44
It's my understanding -correct me if I'm wrong - but unless the officer observes the vehicle speeding they can't charge or write a ticket on the observation of a non LEO ie civilian.
If this is the case, what was the justification for the stop to begin with.
An officer can write a ticket based on a report of a citizen in TN, but the citizen reporting the infraction has to sign the ticket as prosecutor and appear in court as such. I think I've done it once or twice in the 10 yrs I've been a LEO. This is not to suggest it's going to be for an offense such as speeding, but reckless or another offense that may not need "expert" testimony (so to speak) will fly.

Normally when I tell a citizen the process they have to go through who's mad at another driver, they refuse to pursue the issue.

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Old 09-30-2012, 22:27   #44
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Yea thats what I thought as well -had to do it for a DUI that almost rear ended me- and I called in to report it- unfortunately the LEO didn't see them weaving all over the road- they caught up to them at the Quick mart and I had to fill out a statement- they never called me to testify though! I don't know what WY law say on this? But as Dragoon said they can stop you on a verbale I guess! Guy should have just heard the LEO's out- told them no that wasn't me or Yes I legally passed those vehicle so what? Then the officer would have done what? Can't site or arrest without observing the crime! I highly doupt the RVers stuck around or made a statement.
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Old 09-30-2012, 23:40   #45
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Originally Posted by frizz View Post
That matches my experience, Patchman.

On an interstate after dark in a populated area, I used my cell to report a zooming and weaving driver, who was doing at least 85 in a 60 (my wife was driving) but I didn't expect the cops to do anything -- how could they?

Luckily, they just happened to have a car nearby, and they nailed his stupid, drunk/high ass a mere 3 miles down the interstate. The cop was stopped at the exit just waiting, and turned the lights on when the SUV was 200 yards away.
frizz, is it possible that the cop that was waiting for him got the guy on radar for speeding? I'm guessing that's why he was able to nail him without the need for a sworn statement from you.

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I highly doupt the RVers stuck around or made a statement.
In the audio, the officer stated at the end that the RVer didn't want to make a formal complaint, so he was releasing the MC.

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It is part of standardized police training to leave motorcycle operators on the bike, with the kick stand up. You mistake an industry "best practice" with ball busting. That is the problem with a citizens analysis of a particular procedure.
My bad. I didn't understand your original statement and had a mental picture of a guy standing alongside his bike, holding it up by the handlebars. I understand now, and I understand your reasoning for requiring someone to keep their hands on the handlebars (same as having a motorist keep their hands on the wheel).

I'm not a fan of open carry. I live in a state that allows it, but I have never done it. If I'm armed, I would rather it be concealed for a number of reasons that I see as an advantage over OC'ing. However, I'm not aware of a lot of shootings happening with OC'ers, though I know of a few. As a cop, I would be more concerned about the gun I can't see/don't know about rather than one I can plainly see in the open. Every time I go to the range, it's a discrete possibility that the guy next to me could swing his weapon and pop me in the head, but do I ever worry about that happening? No, or I wouldn't go to the range. When I visited Israel a few years ago, all kinds of people had guns, some very young. I saw 18-20yr olds with M-16's at the bus stop, lots of security guards with Uzi's. I never felt safer in my life. It's about WHO has the guns. Now I understand, in the situation with a police officer and a stranger with an OC weapon, you don't know who the person is. But, if I was a felon in possession of a weapon, would I be wearing it OC? I'm all for officer safety, but I think some of this stuff over OC conflicts is borderline paranoia. I'm a hunter and I run into people in the woods or in the field with shotguns and rifles regularly, but the last thing on my mind is that they're going to shoot at me. How do you think game wardens handle it, checking hunters with loaded weapons all the time? "I'm not going to shoot you if you don't shoot me" seems like it works OK 99.999% of the time.

One more thing about this particular incident. When the MC says he doesn't care about officer safety, he's just being a jackass. I know he said it to be argumentative about the stop, but it's still an ignorant and selfish thing to say. This particular stop, including recording, seems to parallel the all-too-familiar OC'er with recording trying to drum up an incident with LE that he can post on the internet. I found it interesting that his claim about the officers "allowing him to leave if his partner can cover him in case he makes a move" was conspicuously absent from the audio recording. I'm not saying it didn't happen, but if it did, why was it edited out?

There's plenty of fail on both sides of this story.
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Old 10-01-2012, 03:58   #46
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Originally Posted by Gunnut 45/454 View Post
SgtScott31
Yea thats what I thought as well -had to do it for a DUI that almost rear ended me- and I called in to report it- unfortunately the LEO didn't see them weaving all over the road- they caught up to them at the Quick mart and I had to fill out a statement- they never called me to testify though! I don't know what WY law say on this? But as Dragoon said they can stop you on a verbale I guess! Guy should have just heard the LEO's out- told them no that wasn't me or Yes I legally passed those vehicle so what? Then the officer would have done what? Can't site or arrest without observing the crime! I highly doupt the RVers stuck around or made a statement.
I don't want to be misunderstood. If I get called on a speeder in "X" vehicle, I'm not going to stop him unless I actually observe him speeding.Speeding is hard to prove unless you have been through RADAR/LIDAR training and get good at estimating speeds. We have to be consistent within 5mph before getting certified. Our vehicles have certified speedometers, and our equipment (RADAR/LIDAR) has to be checked/calibrated. I don't think I would give a ticket out to someone based on joe plumber's theory the guy was simply speeding. If a citizen approaches me and points out a car, says the driver is reckless, articulates the reckless driving/behavior, and wants to prosecute, then I don't have a problem writing out a traffic citation and allowing the reporting party to sign it. All moving violations in TN are misdemeanors. That's not the same for other states.

DUIs and other crimes can be a little different. DUIs are one of those where an officer doesn't have to witness to arrest (just like domestic assault). State laws can vary though. In TN (where I am), citizen reports without me observing the erratic driving can be enough to stop a DUI offender, but every situation is different (and very fact-based). If a citizen gives an accurate description of travel, the vehicle, the driving observed, and I catch up within a reasonable time, I can stop without corroborating.

If I just get a report of a blue vehicle driving bad on "x" road, I would try to get some of my own evidence before stopping.

Bottom line, it's about knowing the law and specifically what the courts in my state have said when it comes to the issue at hand.

As far as what to do with a motorcycle rider, it's up to the individual officer. I was not trained to leave him on the bike. It's a totality of circumstances approach. Obviously if I think he might run, he's coming off of it. According to SCOTUS we have the right to control occupants of any vehicle during a traffic stop. How we do so can vary from stop to stop.
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:46   #47
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Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
frizz, is it possible that the cop that was waiting for him got the guy on radar for speeding? I'm guessing that's why he was able to nail him without the need for a sworn statement from you.
No doubt that the cop observed it. A big red SUV that's flying low and wobbling in his lane.

If you're asking if there just happened to be a speed trap there, I don't think so. The location was out in the open, for one thing.
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Old 10-01-2012, 04:58   #48
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Well TDC20, I guess everyone's mileage will differ.
Good point, Patch. The car my wife was driving gets crappy gas mileage.


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Old 10-01-2012, 05:52   #49
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I agree. I thought the officer's probable cause was shakey in the first place. The officer really made the stop based on what another (phantom) motorist said, but he didn't observe the alleged violation?

Bill

Probable cause is the level of "proof" that is necessary for a custody arrest. Reasonable suspicion is generally closer to the level that needs to be articulated for the police to stop and make an inquiry. Several have already suggested that a complaint of bad driving may reasonably justify an investigative stop. My guess is that the nature of the complaint may help or hurt that justification. A simple complaint of a motorcycle speeding might be insufficient; however a complaint of a motorcycle speeding on a specific roadway in a specific direction along with a description of the bike and rider along with an estimated speed is probably adequate to justify some investigation, especially if the driving approaches a level that might be criminal or could be suspicious beyond a simple traffic violation.
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Old 10-01-2012, 06:18   #50
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Probable cause is the level of "proof" that is necessary for a custody arrest. Reasonable suspicion is generally closer to the level that needs to be articulated for the police to stop and make an inquiry. Several have already suggested that a complaint of bad driving may reasonably justify an investigative stop. My guess is that the nature of the complaint may help or hurt that justification. A simple complaint of a motorcycle speeding might be insufficient; however a complaint of a motorcycle speeding on a specific roadway in a specific direction along with a description of the bike and rider along with an estimated speed is probably adequate to justify some investigation, especially if the driving approaches a level that might be criminal or could be suspicious beyond a simple traffic violation.
Bruce,

That is true. I was thinking about cases where a person was stopped without strict probable cause (pc) and arrested on one or more charges. In the case I'm thinking about it was shown that the officer's pc was defective and the charges were dismissed.

I do see your point for justification in making the stop, though.

Bill

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Old 10-01-2012, 08:18   #51
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I hope he gets a big check and those cops get fired. We don't need these types on the government payroles.
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:09   #52
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SgtScott31
It good to know there are very informed LEO's like yourself on the beat! Thanks for the insight and be safe out there!
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Old 10-01-2012, 10:58   #53
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I hope he gets a big check and those cops get fired. We don't need these types on the government payroles.

Out of curiosity for what would he get a big check?
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:02   #54
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Out of curiosity for what would he get a big check?
The lawsuit!
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:41   #55
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The lawsuit!

Ok On what grounds would the lawsuit provide him with a big check?
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Old 10-01-2012, 11:43   #56
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Ok On what grounds would the lawsuit provide him with a big check?
I know, I know!!!!

For violating his constipational right not to get his feelings butt hurt!!!

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Old 10-01-2012, 17:11   #57
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See page 1 & 2
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Old 10-01-2012, 18:05   #58
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I hope he gets a big check and those cops get fired. We don't need these types on the government payroles.
Neither are going to happen. And shouldn't.
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Old 10-02-2012, 15:32   #59
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Did anyone else notice in the video the little text with the definition off arrest? For someone trumpeting on about knowing his rights he sure doesn't know the difference between arrest and detaining .
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Old 10-02-2012, 20:43   #60
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Note the bold...

-The lewrockwell article is trash
-2 minutes in and have heard enough
-guy wants to debate on the roadside while being detained
-cop is stupid for engaging in debate
-guy is playing to the tape recorder


I really don't have any objections to OC, but this guy wanted to generate nonsense and succeeded.

Normal exchange:
You're being stopped for xxxxxx
ok
you have any weapon?
yes, a pistol...here
ok, don't take it out
let me see your ID & stay on the bike holding the bars.
ok.

Looking for an issue:

You're being stopped for xxxxxx
ok
you have any weapon?
I don't consent to searches
Great, I'd prefer not to get shot today, at this point I'm assuming you're armed...and until I determine if you're a crook we're going to do things my way.
What's your name and badge number?
It will be on the bottoom of the ticket.

Guys are wrapped around the axle thinking LE "justifies" certain behavior because of officer safety. YES, certain things are going to change based on the suspects behavior. Does it mean we're throwing out the Constituition? Hell no...but it does mean I'm not going to make it EASY for you to shoot me when you start playing a little games that can easily be seen as things real crooks do (no straight answer to a simple question, ID games, bantering & distracting, passive aggressive games).
Exactly! ........... and what does being a former combat vet have to do with anything?
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