New to the ar world. - Page 2

vallelbg · 09-30-2012, 18:45

I will be mostly using it for range action, but would want it to be reliable in a situation.

Trey83 · 09-30-2012, 19:57

What is your budget?

**Hour13** · 09-30-2012, 19:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by vallelbg

I will be mostly using it for range action, but would want it to be reliable in a situation.

It'll do you just fine. I love all the little-billy-badass ARs I've gotten to play with, but to be completely honest, I can't imagine a situation I could get into that the Sport wouldn't handle.

1) Of all the people who ever touched their forward assist, maybe 2% actually should have, and perhaps 2% of that 2% used it correctly.

Even if you need to "assist" the bolt forward, you don't need the FA to do it. That's what that little scallop on the side of the carrier is for. Your finger.

2) If you are in the midst of a situation, guess what? The dust cover is gonna be open, not covering anything. The only time it's closed is when it's not in use, and far less likely to get crud in it.

And besides, myth-conceptions aside, a bit of dirt is NOT going to suddenly cause your AR to self destruct. Neither will alot of dirt, short of opening it up and shoveling sand into it.

Bottom line? IMO S&W hit a home-run with the Sport. Runs like a champ, is incredible accurate, has the versatility of a 1:8 twist rate. And stands head and shoulders above it's price tag.

mjkeat · 09-30-2012, 20:10

I agree but am curious, where do you get your statistics?

skeeter1959 · 09-30-2012, 20:54

I have an M&P-15 "Optic Ready" I bought back in 2007 and it shoots very well, never jams, will shoot just about anything I feed it. My only dislike is the upper to lower fit is not all that great. The original trigger sucked so I replaced it with a Timney. Shot a lot of pigs and coyotes with it.

I just recently got a Windam Weaponry Varmint model. The fit and finish is top knotch on this rifle. The accuracy is very very good with 77 grain bullets. The stock trigger is pretty good. I really like the lifetime warranty on the gun.

You can't go wrong with either IMO.

**Hour13** · 09-30-2012, 21:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjkeat

I agree but am curious, where do you get your statistics?

Lol, these are my opinions, just based on my tiny slice of the world. Watching these clowns online and at the range hammer away on the FA like it's a brute-force magic button that'll fix anything.

I'm no operator, or course trainer, or the like. I'm a mechanic, I restore old Mustangs. I'm also a gun enthusiast. I approach it the way I do cars, just like I did with my toys as a kid. If it's a machine with moving parts, I'm going to take it apart, and learn how it works. As with everything else, this is how I developed an understanding of how an AR functions. I was curious, lol, so I tore one apart.

This is also why I'm not a fan of piston conversions. What immediately struck me then, and still impresses me, is the beautiful simplicity of the DI system. The idea of intentionally overcomplicating a perfectly functional system really makes my brain hurt.

..

AKRover · 10-01-2012, 10:40

I've been through M16 training with both the Army and Air Force and neither has taught me to use the forward assist, that I recall. The last training I went through I specifically remember them teaching us to clear the round rather than wasting time with the forward assist. My point is that FA and dust cover are pretty much a non-issue for most everyone, especially someone new to ARs. I know a lot of people that actually prefer the clean look of the slick side receiver without the FA and dust cover.

I changed the upper on my Sport to one with FA and dust cover purely for looks. As mentioned earlier I never had a malfunction that wasn't caused by me so there was no need to change anything on the rifle, except that I wanted to. IMO, the Sport is a great base for an AR build. I've changed a lot of stuff on mine and still have less money in it than with would buying a factory rifle with the same mods or building a rifle from scratch.

scccdoc · 10-01-2012, 10:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjkeat

This is the misconception that keeps people looking rediculous and not shooting to their potential. Like any tool you need to know how to operate it properly to see its full potential plus it's the responsible thing to do.

Seeing that the OP is new to ARs I'll leave it at that and let the rest of you muddy the waters.

I've been around firearms all my life, well at least close to 50 years shooting. I just got my first AR and I'm going to a class hopefully this week. This is a lethal weapon and should be treated with caution and respect. Your post was right on..................... DOC

mjkeat · 10-01-2012, 11:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by scccdoc

I've been around firearms all my life, well at least close to 50 years shooting. I just got my first AR and I'm going to a class hopefully this week. This is a lethal weapon and should be treated with caution and respect. Your post was right on..................... DOC

Awesome, let us know how it goes.

Trey83 · 10-01-2012, 16:56

Apparently I've offended a few of you. I didn't intend to open such a can of worms. And again, I'VE GOT NOTHING AGAINST CLASSES. I just don't feel they are a requirement for a shooter that already knows how to safely handle a firearm.

Quote:

Originally Posted by scccdoc

I've been around firearms all my life, well at least close to 50 years shooting. I just got my first AR and I'm going to a class hopefully this week. This is a lethal weapon and should be treated with caution and respect. Your post was right on..................... DOC

How is it any more lethal than any other firearm you've handled in your 50 years experience?

Would you treat it any differently than a .22lr?

I hope you enjoy your class and get a lot out of it.

mjkeat · 10-01-2012, 17:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trey83

...I just don't feel they are a requirement for a shooter that already knows how to safely handle a firearm.

When was the last time you took a carbine class? What was the curriculum?

Trey83 · 10-01-2012, 17:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjkeat

When was the last time you took a carbine class? What was the curriculum?

I haven't taken one. Nor have I handled my rifles in a manner that have put anybody in danger. It appears to me, you think that I'm saying their is nothing to be had by taking a class. I've said nothing of the sort. I'm sure there is a ton of good info from any reputable class.

The OP asked for opinions between two rifles and you implied not to consider purchasing either without accounting for the cost of ammo, mags and a course. Maybe I missed your point all together. If he had a strict budget of $1000 would you recommend a Colt or a lower quality rifle and a course?

mjkeat · 10-01-2012, 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trey83

I haven't taken one. Nor have I handled my rifles in a manner that have put anybody in danger. It appears to me, you think that I'm saying their is nothing to be had by taking a class. I've said nothing of the sort. I'm sure there is a ton of good info from any reputable class.

The OP asked for opinions between two rifles and you implied not to consider purchasing either without accounting for the cost of ammo, mags and a course. Maybe I missed your point all together. If he had a strict budget of $1000 would you recommend a Colt or a lower quality rifle and a course?

If you haven't experienced one how can you comment on it?

I have people tell me all the time that they've been shooting all their life and are very safe. Five minutes later their finger is all over the trigger and the muzzle is every which direction. Some of these people have been downright rude when I have them sign safety waivers. My point is we think a lot of things are that aren't

I implied nothing. I simply stated that the purchase was just the beginning

Trey83 · 10-01-2012, 18:28

Would you mind posting a link to the type of course you were suggesting in your first post?

Still curious as to your answer here. "If he had a strict budget of $1000 would you recommend a Colt or a lower quality rifle and a course?"

mjkeat · 10-01-2012, 18:41

Classes vary by location and instructor. As stated before a carbine 1 is a good start. I have seen some offering a .5 class as well.

If he has a strict budget of $1k and chooses the AR that has been recommended he'll have plenty left for a few magazines, some ammunition, and a class. Most begining classes are around the $100 mark and require 200-300 rounds. That's $200-$300 for the day and the OP will have a good foundation.

glock031 · 10-01-2012, 18:45

MJkeat, Do you suggest firearm classes should be mandatory or voluntary?

glock031 · 10-01-2012, 18:47

Just wondering because this seems to become an obseesion of yours since you just started taken a few classes.

Trey83 · 10-01-2012, 18:49

Something like this?

Quote:

Vickers Tactical

Carbine Basic: An entry level course for carbine shooters. This class is geared for those who have not had any formal instruction. Topics covered include safety, stance, zeroing for iron sights and optics, sight alignment and trigger control. Familiarization with their carbine includes field stripping and maintenance. Other subject matter that is covered includes reloads, presentation, shooting positions, and introduction to different skill drills including dry fire and bullseye shooting.

mjkeat · 10-01-2012, 19:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock031

MJkeat, Do you suggest firearm classes should be mandatory or voluntary?

Quote:

Originally Posted by glock031

Just wondering because this seems to become an obseesion of yours since you just started taken a few classes.

I've been taking classes for years. Even while in the military our unit sent guys (usually E5's just back from school) to classes so they could come back and teach the rest of us.

It was always exciting to learn new methods but usually made for long days in the formation area doing walk-throughs and at the range/mout putting it into action.

I hate to feel I have to do things so NO to mandatory but only marginally. I think the individual should make it a priority.

This comes from seeing to many people who make claims unable to back them up and look stupid trying. I was that guy at one time and know what it's like not knowing I didn't know.

I wouldn't say it's an obsession as much as it's enlightening.

Chuck66 · 10-01-2012, 20:59

Wow. This thread really surprised me. I've been shopping for my first AR for a couple of weeks now. I'm pretty sure I get the whole Colt/LMT/DD vs S&W/Stag/RRA thing. I know that I will most likely never feel a need to reach for a SHTF rifle, and if I do, I have a Yugo AK that I completely trust, so I'd pretty much settled on a Stag model 2 or 3. Seemed hard to beat for the money.

But then I just had to go shopping. What I found most interesting was the WW SRC at Wal-mart for only $50 more than the Stag Mod. 2. Since then, for the last week, I've been looking for validation of the WW, but every time I go looking here or at Arfcom et al, I find they still don't seem to be a trusted source. Then I saw this thread, and thought "traditional AR vs. the M&P Sport" surely this is where the WW will be the hands-down winner. Nope. Even the M&P Sport is still more trusted.

That's fine. I love S&W, and The M&P is still a valid option for me, along with the Stags and the WW. I'm sure I'll pick between 1 of those 3, and any of them will do exactly what I want. Be an excellent range toy, and probably even more. Just surprised the WW hasn't broken more barriers yet. The fit and finish seem exceptional, and range reports are positive, and I love the company backstory. I'm just afraid if I decide to resell, the WW will be hard to unload. The M&P must be a hell of a gun. Gonna give it an extra long look to ensure I don't unjustly write it off.

Having fun hunting. Great thread. Thanks!

Big Bird · 10-01-2012, 21:10

<==== 10 year Army veteran, Combat Arms, Two combat tours in a Cavalry Regiment. Been shooting rifle for 37 years competitively an have a state service rifle championship on my resume and a couple of regional championships. In high school I shot .22 matches for three years and placed third in the state my senior year. Shot registered skeet and sporting clays on an Army Team and in civilian matches. Have carried a 1911, M16A1, M9 and a HK 9mm MP5 for protection. That's my shooting resume.

I've taken civilian pistol, shotgun and just recently carbine courses. You don't go to those classes to learn the basics of safe gun handling and basic operation. You go to those classes to learn shooting form and techniques. How to run the gun FAST and ACCURATELY. How to clear malfunctions quickly. How to transition to pistol in the middle of a fight. How to manage the trigger. How to manage the recoil. You go to get GOOD with the thing. And trust me...there's ALWAYS someone who knows more than you and can teach you something about shooting. ALWAYS...

I've been shooting M16s and AR's since around 1980. I've proably built a dozen oor 15 from parts for myself and other folks. Last weekend I went to a Vickers Carbine course and learned just how much I really don't know about running an AR.

You don't know what you don't know. Think you know how to run an AR. Go to a course and show em how its done. If you are that good they will take your shooting to the next level.

Trey83 · 10-02-2012, 00:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck66

Wow. This thread really surprised me. I've been shopping for my first AR for a couple of weeks now. I'm pretty sure I get the whole Colt/LMT/DD vs S&W/Stag/RRA thing. I know that I will most likely never feel a need to reach for a SHTF rifle, and if I do, I have a Yugo AK that I completely trust, so I'd pretty much settled on a Stag model 2 or 3. Seemed hard to beat for the money.

But then I just had to go shopping. What I found most interesting was the WW SRC at Wal-mart for only $50 more than the Stag Mod. 2. Since then, for the last week, I've been looking for validation of the WW, but every time I go looking here or at Arfcom et al, I find they still don't seem to be a trusted source. Then I saw this thread, and thought "traditional AR vs. the M&P Sport" surely this is where the WW will be the hands-down winner. Nope. Even the M&P Sport is still more trusted.

That's fine. I love S&W, and The M&P is still a valid option for me, along with the Stags and the WW. I'm sure I'll pick between 1 of those 3, and any of them will do exactly what I want. Be an excellent range toy, and probably even more. Just surprised the WW hasn't broken more barriers yet. The fit and finish seem exceptional, and range reports are positive, and I love the company backstory. I'm just afraid if I decide to resell, the WW will be hard to unload. The M&P must be a hell of a gun. Gonna give it an extra long look to ensure I don't unjustly write it off.

Having fun hunting. Great thread. Thanks!

It's likely that WW is on its way to being a respected if not highly reguarded brand. I have yet to see a negative comment from a single WW owner. We even have a few proud owners here on the site. It's just that they don't have a lot of feedback as of yet. If I liked the features and the price, I wouldn't mind taking a shot with them.

Out of curiousity, what was Walmart charging for the WW?

Trey83 · 10-02-2012, 00:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Bird

<==== 10 year Army veteran, Combat Arms, Two combat tours in a Cavalry Regiment. Been shooting rifle for 37 years competitively an have a state service rifle championship on my resume and a couple of regional championships. In high school I shot .22 matches for three years and placed third in the state my senior year. Shot registered skeet and sporting clays on an Army Team and in civilian matches. Have carried a 1911, M16A1, M9 and a HK 9mm MP5 for protection. That's my shooting resume.

I've taken civilian pistol, shotgun and just recently carbine courses. You don't go to those classes to learn the basics of safe gun handling and basic operation. You go to those classes to learn shooting form and techniques. How to run the gun FAST and ACCURATELY. How to clear malfunctions quickly. How to transition to pistol in the middle of a fight. How to manage the trigger. How to manage the recoil. You go to get GOOD with the thing. And trust me...there's ALWAYS someone who knows more than you and can teach you something about shooting. ALWAYS...

I've been shooting M16s and AR's since around 1980. I've proably built a dozen oor 15 from parts for myself and other folks. Last weekend I went to a Vickers Carbine course and learned just how much I really don't know about running an AR.

You don't know what you don't know. Think you know how to run an AR. Go to a course and show em how its done. If you are that good they will take your shooting to the next level.

Seen your thread on the course

I started leaving my buis open to see how I feel about fixed buis based on your thread.

scccdoc · 10-02-2012, 07:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trey83

Apparently I've offended a few of you. I didn't intend to open such a can of worms. And again, I'VE GOT NOTHING AGAINST CLASSES. I just don't feel they are a requirement for a shooter that already knows how to safely handle a firearm.

How is it any more lethal than any other firearm you've handled in your 50 years experience?

Would you treat it any differently than a .22lr?

I hope you enjoy your class and get a lot out of it.

Totally different type of weapon, it is negligent to believe that I am an expert with an unfamiliar weapon. OJT is not the place for firearms. You don't know what you don't know.........DOC

Chuck66 · 10-02-2012, 12:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trey83

It's likely that WW is on its way to being a respected if not highly reguarded brand. I have yet to see a negative comment from a single WW owner. We even have a few proud owners here on the site. It's just that they don't have a lot of feedback as of yet. If I liked the features and the price, I wouldn't mind taking a shot with them.

Out of curiousity, what was Walmart charging for the WW?

$799 for the SRC. They have a Sig in the case for $850, a Bushy for $950ish and the Colt 6920 for $1097. And the Sportical is there too, but I didn't note the price.

The Windham looks like a great deal. I may just have to be one of the buyers who helps them build that rep.

If I decide that I want a railed top instead of the A2 style front sight, I'll almost certainly get the SRC. I'm getting ready to do my research on that and I think then I'll be ready to decide. Just wish there were more comparisons out there to learn from. Can't find any threads comparing Stag against WW.