GlockTalk.com
Home Forums Classifieds Blogs Today's Posts Search Social Groups



  
SIGN-UP
Notices

Glock Talk
Welcome To The Glock Talk Forums.

 
  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-27-2012, 20:24   #1
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Winter Clothing Factors

My carry load in my G17 is a 115gr bullet doing 1400 FPS. The bullet has a low sectional density and ballistic coefficient, so I wonder about how it will do trying to penetrate through several inches of heavy clothing. I am thinking of changing over to a 147gr JHP in the upcoming cold VT winter. Do I underestimate the fast 115gr JHP bullet?
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-27-2012, 20:58   #2
M 7
Senior Member
 
M 7's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 1,106
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCmasterblaster View Post
My carry load in my G17 is a 115gr bullet doing 1400 FPS. The bullet has a low sectional density and ballistic coefficient, so I wonder about how it will do trying to penetrate through several inches of heavy clothing. I am thinking of changing over to a 147gr JHP in the upcoming cold VT winter. Do I underestimate the fast 115gr JHP bullet?
SC,

I think that you are.

Heavy clothing lacks the tensile strength to stop a bullet. It may clog the expansion cavity of a jacketed hollow point bullet, but the JHP will then behave as a FMJ producing even more penetration than if it hadn't been clogged.

This PDF contains a clothing penetration model that may be of interest to you-

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005garm/tuesday/hudgins.pdf


Check it out.
__________________
For those who CCW:
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 signatures.
M 7 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 04:59   #3
cowboy1964
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: U.S.A.
Posts: 15,284
124+P Gold Dots year round!

I never understood this penchant to change carry ammo for summer vs winter. #1 it's a hassle, #2 you have to stock two different types, #3 you are changing the recoil/feel/POI characteristics, which is never a good thing for shooting to the best of your ability.

LE doesn't change ammo when the season changes, why should you?

Last edited by cowboy1964; 09-28-2012 at 06:26..
cowboy1964 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 05:29   #4
kaech
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: CG wisconsin
Posts: 409
I thought about this to. +p+ in the summer and standard pressure 147 hst winter in my G26
__________________
17,19,19fde,26,23,32*
kaech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 08:39   #5
The Retired Sarge
"The Sarge"
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 606
Choose ammo that will perform in any scenario, any season, any sized bad guy and run with it. As Cowboy1964 so wisely stated, LE does not change ammo with the seasons. In 9mm I would choose either the Federal 147gr HST or Speer Gold Dot 124gr +P. Both perform very well in real shootings, barrier penetration, and both perform well through heavy clothing though I give the nod to the HST there. Both rounds yield about the same good, adequate penetration. Choose one according to what you are confident in: weight/momentum/bullet design or velocity/energy. Bill
The Retired Sarge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 09:44   #6
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
OK, I will stick to my 9x19 Winchester 115gr JHP +p+ year round.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions

Last edited by SCmasterblaster; 09-28-2012 at 09:45..
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 22:53   #7
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,785
Given the variables I think it's a personal call on ammo selection.

In wintertime I go with either Federal 124-grain +P HST or 135-grain +P Federal Tactical Bonded in my 9mm pistol. I have yet to test the 124-grain Remington Golden Saber +P Bonded but expect it's a quality round. I haven't run into the Speer Gold Dot 124-grain +P ammo (the default round for overall self-defense) but wouldn't question its effectiveness year-round.

For warm weather in my serious 9mm caliber pistol it's the Federal 124-grain HST in standard or +P configuration or 9BPLE with the 124-grain Federal Tactical Bonded as another option. In this caliber there are a lot of viable self-defense ammo options available.
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-28-2012, 23:13   #8
collim1
Shower Time!
 
collim1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: USA
Posts: 10,446
I carry the 147g Gold Dots year round.
collim1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 00:22   #9
avenues165
Senior Member
 
avenues165's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: SLC, Utah
Posts: 428
I have wondered the same thing, especially for hiking in the wintertime (folks in heavy coats, not the dreaded "hiking bear"). However, there are some good, common-sense replies in this thread that have helped me realize that I am probably overthinking this one, like I do with everything.

For me it will be 125gr GD in 357 sig or 165gr GDs in .40 S&W year-round, until I overthink something else
avenues165 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 03:48   #10
4949shooter
Senior Member
 
4949shooter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: New Jersey Republik
Posts: 13,057


Quote:
Originally Posted by avenues165 View Post
I have wondered the same thing, especially for hiking in the wintertime (folks in heavy coats, not the dreaded "hiking bear"). However, there are some good, common-sense replies in this thread that have helped me realize that I am probably overthinking this one, like I do with everything.

For me it will be 125gr GD in 357 sig or 165gr GDs in .40 S&W year-round, until I overthink something else
I think you will be well served by either of these loads. I wish my place of work would let us carry one of them for duty.
__________________
"...the men under your command deserve your leadership."-OXCOPS
4949shooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 08:27   #11
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Thanks folks

I will stay with the 9mm +p+ 115gr JHPs for now, but you have offered some interesting alternatives.
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 16:33   #12
9mm +p+
Senior Member
 
9mm +p+'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: KS
Posts: 2,429
If you want to change loads switch to a mid weight +p/+p+ skip the 147 garbage, personally I feel the 115 +p+ will perform just fine.
__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum
9mm +p+ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 16:43   #13
barth
six barrels
 
barth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: The Free Zone
Posts: 5,242
Speer GDHP 124 +P 9mm
My understanding is that this is the standard issue round for the NYPD.
And they have been very please with it's use on the street.

Never been to NY, but I'm pretty sure it gets cold there...
Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner

Last edited by barth; 09-29-2012 at 16:48..
barth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-29-2012, 21:39   #14
unit1069
Senior Member
 
unit1069's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: So. Central US
Posts: 8,785
Quote:
Originally Posted by avenues165 View Post
For me it will be 125gr GD in 357 sig or 165gr GDs in .40 S&W year-round, until I overthink something else
For those two calibers I do believe you have things covered pretty well.
__________________
Rocket Scientist
unit1069 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 09:21   #15
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
Quote:
Originally Posted by barth View Post
Speer GDHP 124 +P 9mm
My understanding is that this is the standard issue round for the NYPD.
And they have been very please with it's use on the street.

Never been to NY, but I'm pretty sure it gets cold there...
Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner
Nice pictures
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-01-2012, 22:05   #16
Hugo R
Gaff G26 User!
 
Hugo R's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: The OC. The Heart's in AZ!
Posts: 4,245
Quote:
Originally Posted by barth View Post
Speer GDHP 124 +P 9mm
My understanding is that this is the standard issue round for the NYPD.
And they have been very please with it's use on the street.

Never been to NY, but I'm pretty sure it gets cold there...
Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner
This^^^is what I use...for now.

HR
__________________
“...most men and women will grow up to love their servitude and will never dream of revolution.”
― Aldous Huxley, Brave New World
Hugo R is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 01:50   #17
Kingarthurhk
Isaiah 53:4-9
 
Kingarthurhk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Texas
Posts: 7,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by barth View Post
Speer GDHP 124 +P 9mm
My understanding is that this is the standard issue round for the NYPD.
And they have been very please with it's use on the street.

Never been to NY, but I'm pretty sure it gets cold there...
Caliber Corner
Caliber Corner
That is what I would carry in a 9mm. But, then again, winter is a lovely excuse for large pistols with larger calibers as well.
__________________
Glock 17, 19, 20SF, 21C, 22, 26, 27, Glock E-Tool, Glock knife
Quod ego haereticus appellari sequere Jesum.
Kingarthurhk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 10:37   #18
SCmasterblaster
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Location: Hartford, Vermont
Posts: 16,020
That

is a great idea. I'll get out my Springfield Armory M1911A1 .45 ACP loaded with 255gr bowling pin shooting loads. That would get thru any thick winter clothing for sure!
__________________
Gun Ownership Offers Freedom in Many Dimensions
SCmasterblaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 11:40   #19
fastbolt
Senior Member
 
fastbolt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Within the lightning (Northern CA)
Posts: 9,907
Usually when the subject of what calibers/loads are used by large agencies who operate in pretty cold climes, it's seemed that 9's get 147gr loads and .40's get 180gr loads. (I mean when this subject comes up and is this being discussed among firearms instructors & armorers.)

While you hear of 230gr .45 loads being favored among .45 users, I've also had an instructor from an agency in the NE tell me his agency finally switched from .45 to .40 in order to get more consistent penetration and expansion in their duty pistols when engaging heavily clothed armed suspects in the coldest times of the year.

Seems to me the ISP, who used the 115gr +P+ loads made by Winchester & Federal for many years, didn't have any complaints about their favored load during different seasons.

Having used a variety of standard pressure, +P & +P+ 9mm loads over the years, I don't get too fussy about bullet weight anymore. Given a choice, I do prefer to use one of the better designed bullets, though.

I also don't hope for caliber, bullet weight & design or MV to offset any lack on my part when it comes to mindset, skillset, experience and being able to employ necessary tactics.
__________________
Sub Club #9; .40 S&W Club #1953; S&W Club #3913
Retired LE - firearms instructor/armorer

Last edited by fastbolt; 10-02-2012 at 11:41..
fastbolt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-02-2012, 16:11   #20
Kentguy
Senior Member
 
Kentguy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Kent, OH
Posts: 1,033
"I also don't hope for caliber, bullet weight & design or MV to offset any lack on my part when it comes to mindset, skillset, experience and being able to employ necessary tactics."

Excellent point fastbolt.

Great ammo is a good thing to research and fine but just as important is being able to hit something with it in a crisis situation.
__________________
"A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition"
—Rudyard Kipling
Kentguy is offline   Reply With Quote

 
  
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 15:08.




Homepage
FAQ
Forums
Calendar
Advertise
Gallery
GT Wiki
GT Blogs
Social Groups
Classifieds


Users Currently Online: 976
317 Members
659 Guests

Most users ever online: 2,672
Aug 11, 2014 at 2:31