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Old 09-29-2012, 14:58   #21
Patchman
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Originally Posted by TDC20 View Post
So I have 2 questions here: 1. When do officers pull over cars that were reported by citizens for speeding, and 2. Has anyone ever seen an RV equipped with a doppler radar? (report alleged that he was speeding in excess of 100mph, as determined by what?)
If units are availalbe, and are close-by enough, the agency will likely make an effort to correct the reported problem. I don't know if in your two situations, the LE agency had unit(s) available or close-by enough to intercept in a timely basis.

As for alleging the MC might have been traveling at over 100 mph, the driver probably probably was estimating. To a seasoned driver, estimating another car's traveling/passing speed really isn't that difficult.

If a seasoned driver is traveling at 60mph, and a car zooms past, the seasoned driver should be able to estimate if the passing car is going 20 mph faster or 50 mph faster.


Quote:
If you give attitude, you have to expect attitude. I think the cyclist being evasive about the weapon question was unwise to say the least, but honestly, was there any doubt the guy had a holstered gun? And you have to wonder if there was any reason for the traffic stop other than having a holstered gun. So it was a rather ridiculous question, and could be interpreted as attitude from the cop. BTW beatcop, I'm not picking on you personally, just your comments. There's a reason some people give cops attitude, and it starts with "bs level" things like "I would have kept him on the bike holding it up by the bars" The problem with wearing a uniform and acting like a jackass is that you color everyone you come into contact with that all cops are jackasses, which isn't true. But you're not doing your brothers any favors with such childish behavior. If you can't be a professional, there are a lot of other jobs and careers out there that don't require it.

OK, so how do you know the MC didn't have the attituide, which the LEO picked up on?


Quote:
You may think that I'm anti-cop, but I'm not. Most of the cops I know and have met are decent, fair, and professional. They earn respect by being respectful. I've also run into a few jackasses over the years, but it's nowhere near 20%. Being LE is a very difficult job. I know for a fact that I couldn't do it, so I don't. They have my my respect implicitly, unless they decide to act like a jackass. I suspect that the cyclist could have had bad interactions with jackass cops in the past, which adversely affected his attitude. Still, he did nothing illegal, and had his rights violated. Facts are facts, and the law is the law.
I don't wear a uniform but I love to people watch. Over the years I notice that very often, many, many people approached by those in uniforms immediately have attituides. The usual attituide is they're better than the uniformed person. If the uniform is a cop, people will exude an air of superiority, as in so why is this cop "bothering" me? Most will always have some snide remark like "why aren't you fighting real crime?" or something similar. God forbid if the uniform is a service person like the UPS guy or sanitation or even a building doorman.

What's my point? You may not believe it, but jackass people not in uniforms exist also.
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Last edited by Patchman; 09-29-2012 at 15:27..
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Old 09-29-2012, 15:26   #22
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I see some claiming the guys rights were violated. Maybe one of these Constitutional experts can specify what right(s) were violated and how.
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Old 09-29-2012, 15:40   #23
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TDC20,

If you go back and listen to the audio you will hear the leo say he didnt see the gun on the bikers right hip since the leo approached him from his left side.

The leo asked the biker if he had any guns before he got off the bike.

It wasnt until after the biker was off the bike and facing the leo that the leo saw the gun.

Also, the leo told the biker some rv'ers had called to complain about a biker speeding past them at a high rate of speed. The biker admitted to passing the rv's, just not at a high speed.

The pc is undoubtedly a result of the bikers passing and not because he had a gun on his hip in oc.

Last edited by ICARRY2; 09-29-2012 at 15:42..
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Old 09-29-2012, 15:52   #24
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I will take a stab at that one. His Fourth Amendment right. The right of the people against searches and seizures shall not be violated and no Warrants shall issue but upon probably cause. Everyone knows that the word "unreasonable" is not in that amendment and even if it were, it is not like it is not unreasonable for an officer to be concerned about dealing with an armed person.
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Old 09-29-2012, 16:01   #25
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Originally Posted by ICARRY2 View Post
TDC20,

If you go back and listen to the audio you will hear the leo say he didnt see the gun on the bikers right hip since the leo approached him from his left side.

[...]

It wasnt until after the biker was off the bike and facing the leo that the leo saw the gun.
That makes sense. Thanks for the input. And Dragoon44:

"That may very well entail me asking a question I already know the answer to in order to see what kind of response I get and how the person reacts to it."

Interesting point and one I did not think about. Thanks for your input, too.
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Old 09-29-2012, 16:09   #26
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TDC,

The problem is that people offer up an opinion based on emotion, not fact:


Quote:
Originally Posted by TDC20
There's a reason some people give cops attitude, and it starts with "bs level" things like "I would have kept him on the bike holding it up by the bars" The problem with wearing a uniform and acting like a jackass is....
It is part of standardized police training to leave motorcycle operators on the bike, with the kick stand up. You mistake an industry "best practice" with ball busting. That is the problem with a citizens analysis of a particular procedure....No, policing isn't just you with a gun and the basis of knowledge you currently have. It's you + training.

Do I make everyone hold their bike? No, but it is best practice when stopping riders wearing colors or are being stopped for other reasons then operation of the MC.

I gaurantee 99% of posters here would have a different outlook if they had to perform LE duties, let alone a ride along. I have the benefit of being an shooting enthusiast as well as LE, so I can relate to their "feelings". That being said, good people go bad...don't put yourself in a position of weakness. I have to pull people over and go to calls for 25 years, this guy gets pulled over once and has some expectation that the cop will entertain the possibility of a gunfight? And claim it's his right to do so? I will gladly make reasonable accomodations to a lawful carrier...once I'm sure that business will be conducted safely.

Oh, I forgot...the old Army rule was 10% ****birds. Probably about the same for LE.

Last edited by beatcop; 09-29-2012 at 16:32..
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Old 09-29-2012, 18:21   #27
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I thank the Captain for his service. But is it possible that having served two tours, is a Marine, is a Captain of Marines, and is a helicopter pilot... made him feel a little entitled?

Riding his MC at 100 MPH (or so it's alleged) on a public highway for fun, and then getting his fun stopped by a nobody cop... might have rankled the Captain a little?
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Old 09-30-2012, 00:18   #28
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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
If units are availalbe, and are close-by enough, the agency will likely make an effort to correct the reported problem. I don't know if in your two situations, the LE agency had unit(s) available or close-by enough to intercept in a timely basis.
Nah, I just think it goes back to the fact that they really can't legally do anything based on one person's call. For example, someone could have been pissed off about being stuck behind a slow driver in the fast lane and figured they could call in a complaint on them about reckless driving and get them in trouble. There's no way to prove or disprove if a complaint is valid in that situation. So I understand that. But in this particular case, if the deputy didn't actually witness any reckless driving or other traffic infractions when he caught up to the MC, does he still have a reason to pull him over? If he doesn't observe some kind of illegal activity or traffic infraction, what is the point in pulling him over? I don't think he could cite the guy based on someone else's observation of an alleged traffic violation, could he?

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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
As for alleging the MC might have been traveling at over 100 mph, the driver probably probably was estimating. To a seasoned driver, estimating another car's traveling/passing speed really isn't that difficult.
Good point, and I know this is true because after spotting cars for about 15 min. using a LADAR, I was able to call the speed to within +/-1mph. I'm not saying that I could come back a week later, without having the LADAR to "calibrate" my observations and still do that, but I believe that training makes this possible within an acceptable window of error. Which brings up another thing that I hadn't considered...maybe the call was made by an off-duty officer in the RV. That would explain why the MC was pulled over based on the complaint.

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Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
OK, so how do you know the MC didn't have the attituide, which the LEO picked up on?
I think it's pretty obvious that the MC had an attitude. In his mind, he was being detained for doing nothing illegal. The cop had an attitude, too. In the cop's mind, he considered the MC's evasion of his weapons question to be a threat to his safety. I hate to be a Monday morning quarterback, but when the guy said he didn't consent to any searches, the cop should have immediately replied with, "I'm not asking to search you, I'm asking if you have any weapons on you." Simply maintaining his question, instead of getting sidetracked, could have eliminated any misunderstandings, and may have prevented a lot of attitude on both sides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Patchman View Post
I don't wear a uniform but I love to people watch. Over the years I notice that very often, many, many people approached by those in uniforms immediately have attituides. The usual attituide is they're better than the uniformed person. If the uniform is a cop, people will exude an air of superiority, as in so why is this cop "bothering" me? Most will always have some snide remark like "why aren't you fighting real crime?" or something similar. God forbid if the uniform is a service person like the UPS guy or sanitation or even a building doorman.

What's my point? You may not believe it, but jackass people not in uniforms exist also.
I have worn a uniform, and I know first hand about people's prejudice based on their experiences or perceptions about someone who wore the same uniform. I have no doubt that cops get attitude pretty much everyday they are in uniform, and it has nothing to do with that particular cop. It's more of an attitude about the uniform and the authority. In most cases, it's not even a conscious thing, but more an element of human nature. It's the same element of human nature that fosters racism and anti-semitism.
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Old 09-30-2012, 00:36   #29
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Originally Posted by ICARRY2 View Post
TDC20,

If you go back and listen to the audio you will hear the leo say he didnt see the gun on the bikers right hip since the leo approached him from his left side.

The leo asked the biker if he had any guns before he got off the bike.

It wasnt until after the biker was off the bike and facing the leo that the leo saw the gun.
I went back and listened a second time, and you are 100% correct. Whether the RV'ers said anything about MWAG we don't know for sure, but the story didn't say, so we assume there was no MWAG called in. Still, the initial contact could have been handled better. If someone answers a question I didn't ask, or gives me an evasive answer, then I ask the question again to make sure they understand exactly what I'm asking. Doesn't matter whether it's my wife, my business partner, or my employee. That's basic communication skills, which would have gone a long way in this instance.

Q. Do you have any weapons on you?
A. I don't consent to any searches.
Q. I'm not asking to search you, I'm asking if you have any weapons on you.
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Old 09-30-2012, 05:46   #30
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Originally Posted by beatcop View Post
TDC,

The problem is that people offer up an opinion based on emotion, not fact:




It is part of standardized police training to leave motorcycle operators on the bike, with the kick stand up. You mistake an industry "best practice" with ball busting. That is the problem with a citizens analysis of a particular procedure....No, policing isn't just you with a gun and the basis of knowledge you currently have. It's you + training.

Do I make everyone hold their bike? No, but it is best practice when stopping riders wearing colors or are being stopped for other reasons then operation of the MC.

I gaurantee 99% of posters here would have a different outlook if they had to perform LE duties, let alone a ride along. I have the benefit of being an shooting enthusiast as well as LE, so I can relate to their "feelings". That being said, good people go bad...don't put yourself in a position of weakness. I have to pull people over and go to calls for 25 years, this guy gets pulled over once and has some expectation that the cop will entertain the possibility of a gunfight? And claim it's his right to do so? I will gladly make reasonable accomodations to a lawful carrier...once I'm sure that business will be conducted safely.

Oh, I forgot...the old Army rule was 10% ****birds. Probably about the same for LE.
Sounds like a liability issue if the bike falls on the rider.

My kickstand is down immediately if I'm pulled over while on 2 wheels. It is for MY safety, the protection of my property, and gives me the ability to present ID when asked to do so.

And yeah, I'm wearing colors.
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Old 09-30-2012, 06:30   #31
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Sounds like a liability issue if the bike falls on the rider
Liability is one of those subjects that sounds good, but gets little traction. You can be sued for anything, however if you're doing your job, there's no issue. Let's face it, if a guy doesn't want to hold the bike, there's nothing you can do...if you instruct him to remain seated and he gets off, what do you think that means? Same concept as getting out of a vehicle on your own...makes you wonder what the driver is up to.

As far as colors, there have been other threads addressing hobby clubs to OMG's. I'd love to ride, but the last two fatals I did were MC. Not a pretty ending.

Quote:
I don't think he could cite the guy based on someone else's observation of an alleged traffic violation, could he?
I worked for one city agency that would not entertain an infraction reported by complainant. The next agency takes it like any other complaint/investigation. You have an accusation, with no evidence it goes away.

Quote:
I was able to call the speed to within +/-1mph.
The training standard I was held to was 4mph. You're not issuing based on an estimate though, merely identifying excessive speed and lasing...just another element of the case. I've cut a "minimum speed violation" a few times...you see the car blast by and isssue the ticket for a 1mph over violation. Either way, if you have reasonable suspicion of a violation you can make the stop and investigate...when the op admitted to passing cars it placed him as "the guy" being reported as speeding...the only issue is to determine if there was a violation.

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Old 09-30-2012, 07:02   #32
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Originally Posted by beatcop View Post
Liability is one of those subjects that sounds good, but gets little traction. You can be sued for anything, however if you're doing your job, there's no issue. Let's face it, if a guy doesn't want to hold the bike, there's nothing you can do...if you instruct him to remain seated and he gets off, what do you think that means? Same concept as getting out of a vehicle on your own...makes you wonder what the driver is up to.

As far as colors, there have been other threads addressing hobby clubs to OMG's. I'd love to ride, but the last two fatals I did were MC. Not a pretty ending.



I worked for one city agency that would not entertain an infraction reported by complainant. The next agency takes it like any other complaint/investigation. You have an accusation, with no evidence it goes away.


The training standard I was held to was 4mph. You're not issuing based on an estimate though, merely identifying excessive speed and lasing...just another element of the case. I've cut a "minimum speed violation" a few times...you see the car blast by and isssue the ticket for a 1mph over violation. Either way, if you have reasonable suspicion of a violation you can make the stop and investigate...when the op admitted to passing cars it placed him as "the guy" being reported as speeding...the only issue is to determine if there was a violation.
It's just silly to think someone would hold up a motorcycle (especially with a passenger) when safety demands the passenger get off and the kickstand goes down. However, I keep my hands on the bars until instructed to do otherwise.

3-piece-patch MC here.
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Old 09-30-2012, 07:16   #33
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Where did you see that the complaint was a MWAG call? the only thing I read was that the complaint was about him passing vehicles at over 100 mph.

As for whether or not the officer had seen the gun and why did he ask. there can be multiple reasons for that.

Keeping in mind that the initial reason for the contact was a complaint about basically reckless driving one of the first things any officer is going to try and do is determine who and what he is dealing with on this stop.

That may very well entail me asking a question I already know the answer to in order to see what kind of response I get and how the person reacts to it.

overall I think the officer handled the situation poorly as the stop progressed. perhaps do to lack of experience or perhaps he is just not cut out to be an officer.

I think for the most part the officer simply became frustrated rather quickly and did not know how to handle the guy.
Your right, guess I have been reading too many reply's and posts on this topic.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:24   #34
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This has gotten a lot of mileage from dopes on other sites. Aside from the issue at hand, I get tired of people throwing out their military experience as some character reference...I've seen at least a 20% total idiot rate on my deployments.

-I wonder if his account is accurate?
-If he was stopped for a MV violation/suspect, oh well, the stop is valid
-I would have kept him on the bike holding it up by the bars...keeps bs level down
-As far as comments to shoot him...sounds a little stupid.
-So far we have one side of the story from a guy who wants money
The 20% idiot rate seems to apply across the board with the entire population in my experience.

Some government agencies (like the BMV)seem to be a bit higher and some like most LE agencies seem a little lower, but not a lot lower.

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Old 09-30-2012, 09:35   #35
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It's my understanding -correct me if I'm wrong - but unless the officer observes the vehicle speeding they can't charge or write a ticket on the observation of a non LEO ie civilian.
If this is the case, what was the justification for the stop to begin with.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:48   #36
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Dragoon44
It's my understanding -correct me if I'm wrong - but unless the officer observes the vehicle speeding they can't charge or write a ticket on the observation of a non LEO ie civilian.
If this is the case, what was the justification for the stop to begin with.
In most states that would be correct as far as actually taking action, (Enforcement). However that does not deter or restrict an officer from a traffic stop based on a complaint to determine what is going on with the individual that is the subject of the complaint.
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Old 09-30-2012, 09:48   #37
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I will never understand why people don't comply at a traffic stop. Nothing good will ever come out of and argument.
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Old 09-30-2012, 16:20   #38
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I will never understand why people don't comply at a traffic stop. Nothing good will ever come out of and argument.
What would we have to talk about here then? You tube would dry up...
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Old 09-30-2012, 16:27   #39
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I can now see more states passing laws that require persons in possession of a gun to inform leos they have a gun during official contacts.

Hopefully, they will go the route Arizona took and just require gun owners to answer truthfully if asked by leos about guns.
I'm not sure I follow. Isn't giving a cop a false answer a crime by itself?
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Old 09-30-2012, 16:58   #40
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If units are availalbe, and are close-by enough, the agency will likely make an effort to correct the reported problem. I don't know if in your two situations, the LE agency had unit(s) available or close-by enough to intercept in a timely basis.
That matches my experience, Patchman.

On an interstate after dark in a populated area, I used my cell to report a zooming and weaving driver, who was doing at least 85 in a 60 (my wife was driving) but I didn't expect the cops to do anything -- how could they?

Luckily, they just happened to have a car nearby, and they nailed his stupid, drunk/high ass a mere 3 miles down the interstate. The cop was stopped at the exit just waiting, and turned the lights on when the SUV was 200 yards away.

Seriously though, the interchange 3 miles ahead of where he was stopped has killed a lot of people.

Based on the tone of voice from the operator, I conclude that area law enforcement (dispatchers included) take drunk/reckless reports especially seriously. She questioned me in a manner that was clearly designed to get the important facts from me very quickly.
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