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Old 09-24-2012, 18:47   #101
Kingarthurhk
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post
No, you're not going to use this cop out. I've heard way too many believers try to wiggle out of the horrible laws these people created by saying it was their law and not God's. The Jews consider THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT to be inspired by God. Including their laws. You and your apologist buddies don't get to redefine that. All of it was brought to them from Yahweh. You do not get to place the origin of the laws on the people and not God. Your God... the one who later showed up in the flesh as Christ felt it was OK to rape a woman as long as you paid her father 50 pieces of silver and took her off his hands. This is how YOUR GOD thinks.
It is interesting, you are young and know so little about life in general, yet you presume to know the mind of God. As to the rest, I suppose it is for the best that I am not a Jew, though genetically probably 1/4th Jewish. I guess that would make me a Samaritan. It is clear you don't understand scripture, and you certainly don't know the mind of God.

If you lived in a society where the only means of support were your sons (though I am certain you are too young and imature to even think of marriage let alone children), and women's only means of support were their husbands things would be different. There was no social welfare, unless you consider begging to be a form of social welfare.

Sons took care of you in your old age and daughters provided a dowry. If the daughter was defiled and considered unfit for marriage the parents would be out the dowry. That is the equivalent of someone stealing part of their retirement. Then the daughter would be ruined as no other man would have her, so she would need the same stability and financial support as she would from a husband. He broke it, he bought it, and had to pay the consequences financially to both injured parties.

It is not the ideal situation. However, killing the perpetrator would deny both injured parties financial recompense. Now, if he died, she could be free to remarry and no face social rejection by other males.


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Can you demonstrate that this was in the name of Atheism? That is was in the name of a lack of belief? I'd love to watch you try.
It is really simple. Karl Marx was an Atheist, who, like most of you here, was vehemently and violently opposed to religion. Marxism is the foundation of Communism, and Communists have always wholesale slaughtered and committed genocide when taking over, or attempting to take over a government. So, yes, Atheism is then by extension responsible for millions upon millions of deaths.
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Old 09-24-2012, 19:42   #102
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
It is really simple. Karl Marx was an Atheist, who, like most of you here, was vehemently and violently opposed to religion. Marxism is the foundation of Communism, and Communists have always wholesale slaughtered and committed genocide when taking over, or attempting to take over a government. So, yes, Atheism is then by extension responsible for millions upon millions of deaths.
1. Substantially more people have been, and are being, killed in the name of religion than have ever been killed in the name of Communist.

2. Being an atheist does not mean you're a Communist any more than being a theist means you're a Muslim.
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Old 09-24-2012, 21:42   #103
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
It is really simple. Karl Marx was an Atheist, who, like most of you here, was vehemently and violently opposed to religion. Marxism is the foundation of Communism, and Communists have always wholesale slaughtered and committed genocide when taking over, or attempting to take over a government. So, yes, Atheism is then by extension responsible for millions upon millions of deaths.
For the upteenth time, I am not a godless communist. I am a godless capitalist. When are theists going to let this red herring go? You seem to be desperately trying to draw a parallel where none exists so you can find us morally guilty by association. Those atrocities where committed in the name of communism, not atheism. Communists only adopt atheism as a matter of convenience as they don't want any other sources of moral authority (like an organized church) around which might pose a threat to their power.

Communism doesn't logically follow from atheism anyway. The only political system that does would be libertarianism.
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Old 09-25-2012, 01:39   #104
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
It is interesting, you are young and know so little about life in general
How so?

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yet you presume to know the mind of God.
I don't need to know his mind. He spoke through his people, the Jews. Your religion is based on the Old Testament. And the Jews absolutely see the entire Old Testament as the inspired living word of God. Most definitely the Torah. When Moses spoke about law it was taken as granted that his inspiration was from God. That this is how God wanted his people to live. It wasn't arbitrary or hit and miss. This was inspired by God. So it's right there what was in God's mind for he shall not let his word return unto him void. God would not let someone (Especially Moses) corrupt his will. And it was his will that the Jews murder, rape, and destroy anyone that wouldn't pay tribute to them.


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It is clear you don't understand scripture, and you certainly don't know the mind of God.
It is clear you ignore it and only accept the parts you like or can twist to your purposes.

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If you lived in a society where the only means of support were your sons (though I am certain you are too young and imature to even think of marriage let alone children),
I am 35 and have had my chance to get married and start a family and turned it down because marriage is a failed institution and I don't really want kids. My girlfriend has an 11 year old. That's plenty.

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and women's only means of support were their husbands things would be different.
Simply because women were livestock and treated like cooking cleaning sex toys. Women weren't allowed to be independent. Remember, this was the way God wanted it. This is how he inspired his people to treat another human being.

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Sons took care of you in your old age and daughters provided a dowry. If the daughter was defiled and considered unfit for marriage the parents would be out the dowry. That is the equivalent of someone stealing part of their retirement. Then the daughter would be ruined as no other man would have her, so she would need the same stability and financial support as she would from a husband. He broke it, he bought it, and had to pay the consequences financially to both injured parties.

It is not the ideal situation. However, killing the perpetrator would deny both injured parties financial recompense. Now, if he died, she could be free to remarry and no face social rejection by other males.
This is how these people lived inspired by YOUR God. They treated women like property based on the laws ordained by YOUR God. But understand what you're really saying here. It was a different time. Their way of life was not like ours. Isn't it funny how God was ok with it. Isn't it funny how the God they invented hated all the same people they did? Isn't it funny how God felt women should be treated like second class citizens just like his people thought. It makes a great case for Yahweh being an invention of the jews rather than an actual being doesn't it? Either that or God should still be ok with treating women like dirt. Is God fine with me raping a woman so long as I give her Dad 50 pieces of silver and marry her? Is God alright with that? It was fine for his people. So it must still be fine. Or has the God you've invented in your mind decided to agree with you what is moral and what is not?

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It is really simple. Karl Marx was an Atheist, who, like most of you here, was vehemently and violently opposed to religion.
I am opposed to religion in a power structure. I don't want religious people making laws that effect me based on their nonsense. I'm actually friends with many believers. I mean c'mon... I live in the South. I'm not exactly in Atheist Country. I enjoy debating with religious people because I love listening to otherwise smart people defend total horse crap.

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Marxism is the foundation of Communism
But Atheism is not. Atheism is a lack of belief in God. It doesn't have a cannon, it doesn't have scripture or gospel. There isn't an Atheist Bible with defined beliefs or codes of ethics. It is simply a lack of Theism.

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Communists have always wholesale slaughtered and committed genocide when taking over, or attempting to take over a government.
Because they're communists... not Atheists. Communism is a defined set of ideals and goals. You can define its dogma. There is no such thing with Atheism. Again... it's just a lack of Theism.

I am sure there are many killers in this world who are Atheists. But they're not killers BECAUSE they're Atheists. They're killers because they're killers. There are killers who are Christians. But it's not always because they're Christians. But when you have a person or group of people killing in the name of a God... it absolutely is because of their religion.

Exterminating a group of religious people can definitely be seen as religious intolerance... but for what reason? Why might one be intolerant of religion? Because of Atheism? Or Because it's good strategy to destroy any flag, or symbol around which people might rally to overthrow you? It's really silly to suggest that someone would commit genocide because they don't believe in God. Are they jealous or something? When religious people kill in the name of God it's usually out of either defending the righteousness of their God OR killing to honor their God. There is no such being to defend or honor with Atheism. To suggest they would want to attack a people out of offense at their God would suggest that the Atheists believe in that God in the first place. It's like the asinine argument that Atheists are mad at God. That's like being mad at Sponge Bob Square Pants. It's just silly.

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So, yes, Atheism is then by extension responsible for millions upon millions of deaths.
No, it's not connected at all. Like I said. Atheism is the ultimate in personal responsibility. There isn't any God to kill for. There isn't any idealism or dogma to blame. It's just that person and their own personal ideals. No one is saying that Atheists can't be jerks. It just isn't because they're Atheists. It's because they're jerks LOL.
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Old 09-25-2012, 04:44   #105
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Originally Posted by muscogee View Post
1. Substantially more people have been, and are being, killed in the name of religion than have ever been killed in the name of Communist.

2. Being an atheist does not mean you're a Communist any more than being a theist means you're a Muslim.
Communism is philosophically an Atheist construct. One of the hallmarks of Communism is to oppress any and all religious beliefs. The purges of Russia far outstripped the genocide numbers of Nazi Germany. Pol Pot committed wholesale slaughter and genocide. And though, not being a Communist revolution per ce, the French Revolution was also Atheist by nature. So, Atheist revolutions have killed millions uppon millions of people.
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:00   #106
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Originally Posted by Glock36shooter View Post

I don't need to know his mind. He spoke through his people, the Jews. Your religion is based on the Old Testament. And the Jews absolutely see the entire Old Testament as the inspired living word of God. Most definitely the Torah. When Moses spoke about law it was taken as granted that his inspiration was from God. That this is how God wanted his people to live. It wasn't arbitrary or hit and miss. This was inspired by God. So it's right there what was in God's mind for he shall not let his word return unto him void. God would not let someone (Especially Moses) corrupt his will. And it was his will that the Jews murder, rape, and destroy anyone that wouldn't pay tribute to them.
Actually, it was God being tired of rank rebellion and wickedness and was determined to insert a people that would not evil. And when the Israelites decided to be evil, He took them to task as well. God is not a respecter of persons.

Also, there is no place in scripture where rape is treated as admirable.

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It is clear you ignore it and only accept the parts you like or can twist to your purposes.
No, it is clear, you don't have a real grasp of scripture, and you just really want to try to find things to take out of context given the culture of the world at the time. It is highly anachronistic.

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I am 35 and have had my chance to get married and start a family and turned it down because marriage is a failed institution and I don't really want kids. My girlfriend has an 11 year old. That's plenty.
I guess if you are self-absorbed and want to string along a woman looking for stability and support. I thought you were against taking advantage of women?

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Simply because women were livestock and treated like cooking cleaning sex toys. Women weren't allowed to be independent. Remember, this was the way God wanted it. This is how he inspired his people to treat another human being.
That mode of relationship didn't exist before the fallen world. Sin changed the nature of the relationship. It says that the woman would now desire her husband. Genesis 3:16. It is not the way God designed or wanted it.

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This is how these people lived inspired by YOUR God. They treated women like property based on the laws ordained by YOUR God. But understand what you're really saying here. It was a different time. Their way of life was not like ours. Isn't it funny how God was ok with it. Isn't it funny how the God they invented hated all the same people they did? Isn't it funny how God felt women should be treated like second class citizens just like his people thought. It makes a great case for Yahweh being an invention of the jews rather than an actual being doesn't it? Either that or God should still be ok with treating women like dirt. Is God fine with me raping a woman so long as I give her Dad 50 pieces of silver and marry her? Is God alright with that? It was fine for his people. So it must still be fine. Or has the God you've invented in your mind decided to agree with you what is moral and what is not?
If He hated us, He wouldn't have come to earth and taken the penalty upon Himself. As far as mistreating women, you should examine your own relationship with them. Have you not viewed them as sexual objects? Given the fact that you have no moral code, I suspect you have. You have never mistrated a woman to satisfy yourself? In 35 years of existance, I think you can probably recount with some self-serving pride the ammount of "conquests" you have had. Now, you are living with a woman who is not your wife with a son. Having been around this world longer than you have, I suspect she has expectations whether spoken or not that you will give her some sort of stability, that you are denying her.

You spoke of her son as if he was an annoyance or a bother in the way of what you want. How do you think that makes him feel? Raising two children of my own, they are far more perceptive of what people are feeling and thinking than you give them credit for.

As for God, He is not okay with it. As Jesus said, He allowed certain things to happen because the people's hearts were hard. It was far from ideal. It was never represented as ideal. Your heart is hard, and see how you treat the woman you are living with?



I am opposed to religion in a power structure. I don't want religious people making laws that effect me based on their nonsense. I'm actually friends with many believers. I mean c'mon... I live in the South. I'm not exactly in Atheist Country. I enjoy debating with religious people because I love listening to otherwise smart people defend total horse crap.



But Atheism is not. Atheism is a lack of belief in God. It doesn't have a cannon, it doesn't have scripture or gospel. There isn't an Atheist Bible with defined beliefs or codes of ethics. It is simply a lack of Theism.



Because they're communists... not Atheists. Communism is a defined set of ideals and goals. You can define its dogma. There is no such thing with Atheism. Again... it's just a lack of Theism.

I am sure there are many killers in this world who are Atheists. But they're not killers BECAUSE they're Atheists. They're killers because they're killers. There are killers who are Christians. But it's not always because they're Christians. But when you have a person or group of people killing in the name of a God... it absolutely is because of their religion.

Exterminating a group of religious people can definitely be seen as religious intolerance... but for what reason? Why might one be intolerant of religion? Because of Atheism? Or Because it's good strategy to destroy any flag, or symbol around which people might rally to overthrow you? It's really silly to suggest that someone would commit genocide because they don't believe in God. Are they jealous or something? When religious people kill in the name of God it's usually out of either defending the righteousness of their God OR killing to honor their God. There is no such being to defend or honor with Atheism. To suggest they would want to attack a people out of offense at their God would suggest that the Atheists believe in that God in the first place. It's like the asinine argument that Atheists are mad at God. That's like being mad at Sponge Bob Square Pants. It's just silly.



No, it's not connected at all. Like I said. Atheism is the ultimate in personal responsibility. There isn't any God to kill for. There isn't any idealism or dogma to blame. It's just that person and their own personal ideals. No one is saying that Atheists can't be jerks. It just isn't because they're Atheists. It's because they're jerks LOL.[/QUOTE]
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Old 09-25-2012, 05:27   #107
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Actually, it was God being tired of rank rebellion and wickedness and was determined to insert a people that would not evil. And when the Israelites decided to be evil, He took them to task as well. God is not a respecter of persons.
If God doesn't respect people, why should people respect him? Isn't that pretty much the ethic of reciprocity?
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Also, there is no place in scripture where rape is treated as admirable.
But keep alive for yourselves all the young girls who have not known a man intimately. (Numbers 31:18)

So they instructed the Benjamites, saying, “Go and hide in the vineyards and watch. When the young women of Shiloh come out to join in the dancing, rush from the vineyards and each of you seize one of them to be your wife. Then return to the land of Benjamin.(Judges 21:20-21) This is after they'd slaughtered the people of Jabesh-Gilead and taken their women.

When you go to war against your enemies and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife. Bring her into your home and have her shave her head, trim her nails and put aside the clothes she was wearing when captured. After she has lived in your house and mourned her father and mother for a full month, then you may go to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. If you are not pleased with her, let her go wherever she wishes. You must not sell her or treat her as a slave, since you have dishonored her. (Deuteronomy 21:10-14)

Need some more? They're in there.
[quote]it is clear, you don't have a real grasp of scripture, and you just really want to try to find things to take out of context given the culture of the world at the time. It is highly anachronistic. [/QUOT] What does the culture of the time have to do with it? Isn't the Bible the perfect source of all morality? Was God constrained by the culture of the time?
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I guess if you are self-absorbed and want to string along a woman looking for stability and support. I thought you were against taking advantage of women?
Women can only find value and stability in being the possession of a man? Do you really believe that?
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That mode of relationship didn't exist before the fallen world. Sin changed the nature of the relationship. It says that the woman would now desire her husband. Genesis 3:16. It is not the way God designed or wanted it.
God didn't want wives to desire their husbands? If not for the Fall, how would they have been fruitful and multiplied?
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If He hated us, He wouldn't have come to earth and taken the penalty upon Himself.
He didn't, he invented a son to get knocked around a bit so he could demand more unquestioning obedience.
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As far as mistreating women, you should examine your own relationship with them. Have you not viewed them as sexual objects? Given the fact that you have no moral code, I suspect you have.
Did I miss the part where Glock36shooter said he had no moral code?
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Old 09-25-2012, 09:20   #108
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Communism is philosophically an Atheist construct. One of the hallmarks of Communism is to oppress any and all religious beliefs. The purges of Russia far outstripped the genocide numbers of Nazi Germany. Pol Pot committed wholesale slaughter and genocide. And though, not being a Communist revolution per ce, the French Revolution was also Atheist by nature. So, Atheist revolutions have killed millions uppon millions of people.
You're absolutely 100% wrong and don't know what you're talking about. Atheism has no constructs, no ideals, no beliefs, no standards. It is simply a lack of a belief. It is a moving beyond religion.

Again, I'm not denying that there have been bad atheists. There surely have been. But it wasn't BECAUSE they were atheist. It was simply because they were bad people.

I know you really want to have Atheism be a religion that can be blamed for things like this so you can have your tit for tat... but it's simply nonsense.
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Old 09-25-2012, 10:34   #109
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Actually, it was God being tired of rank rebellion and wickedness and was determined to insert a people that would not evil. And when the Israelites decided to be evil, He took them to task as well. God is not a respecter of persons.
Obviously he doesn't respect anyone, especially women and non-jews. His laws gave the Jews a divine right to murder, rape, and enslave whomever they chose. And this is the God that is one third of your Trinity. He's all about some rape, slavery, mass murder, genocide, and apparently even getting children pregnant since... at the time... it was common for 13 year olds to have children and his command was to be fruitful and multiply.

Do you think he'd change his mind today because we find it amoral to have sex with children? Do you think God adjusts his morality to suit our views? Because if his morality is the same today as it was then... pedophilia is perfectly fine. Boys become men and girls become women around 13. Marry was more than likely under the age of 16 when she had Jesus. God impregnated a child out of wedlock. This is the morality of your God seen directly though his own actions and the actions of the people operating under the laws he gave them.

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Also, there is no place in scripture where rape is treated as admirable.
Admirable... that's subjective. I think Animal Mother showed you it most certainly wasn't frowned upon by God's people. And they were acting under laws given them through God. But they absolutely felt they had a divine right to rape and take women as property. They had to spread the kingdom of David. They had to replenish the nation of Israel. God himself gave them the divine right to take what they felt was theirs... and this includes women.

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No, it is clear, you don't have a real grasp of scripture, and you just really want to try to find things to take out of context given the culture of the world at the time. It is highly anachronistic.
Is the bible the word of God or not? Were these his people or not? God smiled on these laws according to them. This is how God wanted these people to live, according to them. Are you saying that God has changed his mind throughout the centuries? How do we know this? There are no "Newer" testaments. The truth is that God's outlook changes with the Jews as they progress as a people. In their early more savage Days God was a bit wild. Giving them the divine right to take what they felt was theirs. As they themselves became oppressed by people like the Greeks and Romans, God began to have some kind of sense of Justice where the wicked were punished. And once they finally lost their temple the first time and corruption in the higher ranks of the jewish priesthood. along comes a messiah to show them that they didn't need the temple... that they could have a personal relationship with God without making sacrifices in the temple. God matured along side the Israelites. This is more proof than I ever needed that Yahweh and the Miracles of the Christ Character were an invention of men. And now, this same God... agrees with all the morals you seem to hold dear. Your God frowns upon pedophilia... but he didn't 2,000 year ago. He partook in it.

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I guess if you are self-absorbed and want to string along a woman looking for stability and support. I thought you were against taking advantage of women?
LOL, you're a funny little man. My chick doesn't want to get married either. She's a hardcore Atheist. you think I'm bad you should meet her. We both agree that marriage is a joke. People act as if it's some giant commitment and yet you watch line the halls of the court houses wanting to undo it. The only reason marriage was more concrete in Jesus' day was because women were property. That's the only want marriage succeeds more than 50% of the time... is if the woman has no rights. Once you have true free will... Marriage simply is a failed concept. About 60% of marriages fail outright. Of the 40% that stay together... half of them are probably miserable and just doing it for religious reasons or for the kids. So around 20% of people that are married are happy as clams they did it. And that's probably a generous percentage. It is ignorant of reality to continue to believe there is anything special or magical about marriage. It's a failed institution period.

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That mode of relationship didn't exist before the fallen world. Sin changed the nature of the relationship. It says that the woman would now desire her husband. Genesis 3:16. It is not the way God designed or wanted it.
There is no evidence of a Pre-Fallen world. Only a world where man was even LESS civilized and more animal like. There was never a time predating these events when we were better behaved than these rapists and brutes.


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If He hated us, He wouldn't have come to earth and taken the penalty upon Himself.
What penalty? His own penalty? Why did God feel the need to come down here in human form, have himself tortured, killed, have himself sacrificed to himself, to forgive man of sin he designed him to commit, only to select a chosen few (that he already knew) who would receive his gift of faith, to save them from a Hell he created? God's crazy. Either that or he's a child and we're green plastic army men to him.

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As far as mistreating women, you should examine your own relationship with them. Have you not viewed them as sexual objects?
Absolutely, but they have a choice don't they? They can choose not to be with me. My chick is with me because I treat her well and she loves me. Once you toss God out of the equation you truly have free will. If she doesn't like the way I treat her... she can leave. There are no sacred vows, of guitl, or promises to God holding her too me. Just how good I am to her. She has freedom. Your book spits on this idea. Women are cattle, to be bought and sold and treated as property you can put your wang in. My way is better. It respects choice and freedom.

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Given the fact that you have no moral code
How so?

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You have never mistrated a woman to satisfy yourself? In 35 years of existance, I think you can probably recount with some self-serving pride the ammount of "conquests" you have had.
Oh trust me... I didn't mistreat them. The loved every minute of it. I'm actually friends with every girl I dated seriously. We usually just agreed that we were going in different directions or wanted different things and gave each other a hug and resumed our friendship. I've had one night stands but it was understood between two adults that it was just about the sex and nothing else. See, you look down on women. You think them choosing to be sexual and free is somehow hurting them. That they're too stupid or weak to understand what they want. That they are not capable of making up their own minds and being sexually active in a way that makes them happy. We've all had relationships that didn't work out. But that's part of being social creatures. To deny that is the social equivalent to sticking your head in the sand.

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Now, you are living with a woman who is not your wife with a son.
We have our own separate places, and she has a daughter. Do you get tired of being wrong and making an ass of yourself? I don't get tired of watching you do it.

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Having been around this world longer than you have, I suspect she has expectations whether spoken or not that you will give her some sort of stability, that you are denying her.
She's grown. She can take care of herself. If she wanted more than what I was giving... she'd leave me. TRUST ME... she has lots of guys after her. She has tons of options.

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You spoke of her son as if he was an annoyance or a bother in the way of what you want. How do you think that makes him feel?
Again, there ya go making an ass of yourself. Her child is a girl. And where in the world did say she was a bother? I love that little girl. I said she's plenty... meaning I don't want any kids of my own, and my chick's daughter satisfies any want for a kid I could ever have. Our little family is all I need.

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Raising two children of my own, they are far more perceptive of what people are feeling and thinking than you give them credit for.
I don't recall making a statement on the perceptive nature of children. I can tell you that little girl adores me and hangs around my neck constantly. See her father (Who is a Christian by the way) wants nothing to do with her. He bolted when she was 2. He sent a few birthday and Xmas cards but quickly lost interest when he started a family with another girl. He doesn't pay child support, doesn't call, doesn't care. I'm raising this Christian's child for him. Showing her the love he never would. At night when I put her to bed she whispers "I love you" in my ear because she is afraid to say it out loud where other's can hear. Because she's afraid I'll leave her... just like her Christian father.

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As for God, He is not okay with it. As Jesus said, He allowed certain things to happen because the people's hearts were hard. It was far from ideal. It was never represented as ideal. Your heart is hard, and see how you treat the woman you are living with?
LOL it's not my hard heart that she loves so much. It's another hard member of mine. And I beat her lady parts like they owe me money with it. All joking aside, you've proven yourself to be quite an ass. If the way you interpret what I have written is at all similar to the way you interpret scripture... then it's no wonder you don't know what you're talking about.

Last edited by Glock36shooter; 09-25-2012 at 16:20..
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