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Old 09-23-2012, 10:03   #81
Glock36shooter
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
Non-Christian historians had no benefit from forging anything.
The historians themselves wouldn't be making the forgery. The forgeries would have come later in an attempt to make history mesh with scripture. And believers have been trying to do that for a very long time. When I say historians I am speaking of ancient historian like Tacitus and Josephus. And I have read Ronald Mellor on the subject. It isn't 100% conclusive that the writings referencing Christ's crucifixion aren't forgeries. However as I said... there probably was a street preacher that went by that name and was killed for causing trouble politically in that area at the time.


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He existed and changed the world.
He possibly existed but did little else. Christianity altered the world (not necessarily for the better) because in the decline of Rome the Church used their new found religion as a political tool to gain favor among the budding new kingdoms of Briton. And let us not forget that the ONLY reason Rome adopted Christianity is because Constantine claimed to have had a divine hallucination telling him to conquer through Christ. What we know is that Rome was falling apart and they needed something new to believe in. When the emperor adopts a new faith... so does the empire. No one really took it seriously at the time. They simply aligned themselves with the emperor for political favor. Up to that point Christians were just a strange cult known as Gnostics. And were it not for Rome adopting Christianity... your religion would have died out a strange cult just like a million other religions at the time. The reason Christianity survived is because it became USEFUL to empires for controlling the masses. Not because of love peace and hope. Because of power and wealth. These are the roots of your faith. Christ had little to do with your religion spreading across the world. Constantine and power hungry leaders are the primary reason you religion wasn't lost in the ancient sands. And it was the roman's who selected what makes up your bible for you. Christ didn't do that.

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If He were a poltical trouble maker, He would have been with the Jewish zealor order that opposed Rome.
If we are going to assume that these things happened at all...

He was the exact opposite. He opposed what he saw the Jewish community becoming. And he claimed to be the messiah. This is what got him killed. This is what got him left on the cross. Pilate didn't really care one way or the other but he was going to enforce order. The Christ Character in this story was just a public disturbance to be dealt with.

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There is no doubt that with the uprising of Paganism at the time of Constantine and its mingling with Christianity that the Mithras cult got smashed into Catholicism along with Sunday worship and the rest.
But not in such a way as that maybe some of their beliefs got tangled in with stories at the time? Keep in mind this was passed via oral tradition until later written down.

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Can you cite your references? Also, can you find a better religion on the planet?
One already has been above. In Deut 20 they talk about the armies. Pretty much God commands the jews to go to each city in peace, and to demand that the people of that city become tributaries (To pay tribute) and if they won't, kill the men and spoiled women and take everything else in sight as their own as evidence of the favor of god. God pretty much commanded the Jews to be gangsters. To order those around them to pay up or die.

I know I know, I'm reading it wrong, not keeping it in context, whatever other horse crap you guys like to toss out to keep your God from looking like the jerk he is.

How about where if a woman doesn't protest her rape loud enough she gets stoned to death. Or the bible approved method of how to treat a slave. Has your daughter had premarital sex? No worries... we'll just murder her on her fathers door step. Peace and love my big ole butt.

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Old 09-23-2012, 10:45   #82
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Only a married guy would choose crucifiction willingly.

Randy
LOL apologies... didn't get the joke.
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Old 09-23-2012, 10:54   #83
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Originally Posted by Schabesbert View Post
I'm glad that you're actually asking the question now, rather than assuming the answer, as you incorrectly had until now.

It's funny, but I see (as a general rule) militant atheists militating against fundamentalist arguments. Militant atheists are fundies at heart.

Now, maybe if you look at what is actually meant, rather than the simplistic (and wrong) view put forth by fundies, you would actually know what you're arguing against.

The only thing worse than beating a dead horse ...

is beating the WRONG dead horse.
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Are you going to answer the question or not?
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Are you going to answer the question or not?
Are you going to answer the question or not?
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Old 09-23-2012, 12:27   #84
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LOL apologies... didn't get the joke.
No worries, its all good..

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Old 09-23-2012, 13:28   #85
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Originally Posted by High-Gear View Post
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.
He is perpetually punished by having to see to her care all of his life. In that culture violating a woman and casting her aside was worse than the offense of violation. He has essentially ruined her for any other man. Just as Joseph contemplated getting rid of a pregnant Mary, until it was revealed to Him the true nature of the pregnancy.

I think a modified version of that in this country would be good. If you violate a woman, you are responsible for her financially for life. That would probably reduce the ammount of rapes rather than a light sentence and back into society with no other consequence.

Also, durring that phase in human history a man could easily divorce a wife. Not so with this circumstance. What he has done must be always beofre him.

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On an interesting side note, if the girl refuses to marry him, she should be stoned to death!

Numbers 31:17

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:13-21, "Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army—the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.
15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

19 “Anyone who has killed someone or touched someone who was killed must stay outside the camp seven days. On the third and seventh days you must purify yourselves and your captives. 20 Purify every garment as well as everything made of leather, goat hair or wood.

21 Then Eleazar the priest said to the soldiers who had gone into battle, “This is what is required by the law that the Lord gave Moses: 22 Gold, silver, bronze, iron, tin, lead 23 and anything else that can withstand fire must be put through the fire, and then it will be clean. But it must also be purified with the water of cleansing. And whatever cannot withstand fire must be put through that water. 24 On the seventh day wash your clothes and you will be clean. Then you may come into the camp.

Context is everything. They were at war with people who actively tried to kill them, curse them, and cause them to sin and have plagues brought against them. The people's they were at war with would have shown even less mercy, and already had.

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As to a better religion...

If I agreed with Cavdoc, I'd say Atheism. However atheism is not a religion so I would say Jainism.
Atheisim using the arm of Marxism is responsible for untold millions of deaths and genocide. It containst nothing pure.

As to Jainism it is Buddhism lite. Attachments to things or people cause misery, karma is in play, so you have to live untold multiple lives full of suffering as a punishment for actions committed in other lives, until nonexistance is achieved.

It shares a similar goal to Atheism, as it's ultimate goal is nonexistance.

So, if your goal is to suffer continually life time after life time until you no longer exist, I suppose Jainism is for you.

If you are looking for salvation, with the goal is peaceful eternal life, Christianity is the the better choice.
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Old 09-23-2012, 16:12   #86
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
He is perpetually punished by having to see to her care all of his life. In that culture violating a woman and casting her aside was worse than the offense of violation. He has essentially ruined her for any other man. Just as Joseph contemplated getting rid of a pregnant Mary, until it was revealed to Him the true nature of the pregnancy.
He is forced to buy the goods that he damaged because women were property and not people. This is a law inspired by and signed off on by God. Women had no rights. This is why it didn't matter that God raped Mary and impregnated her with the Bastard Jesus.

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I think a modified version of that in this country would be good. If you violate a woman, you are responsible for her financially for life. That would probably reduce the ammount of rapes rather than a light sentence and back into society with no other consequence.
Ridiculous, Rapists should be either imprisoned or put do death. Do you really think a rape victim wants to be fed and clothed by the person that attacks her?

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Also, durring that phase in human history a man could easily divorce a wife. Not so with this circumstance. What he has done must be always beofre him.
It is insane to consider this a punishment. What if the man wanted the woman for his wife but was not able to lay official claim to her for whatever reason? Raping her was the clear way in. Then all it took was 50 pieces of silver and he's got his bride.

You can spew your apologists nonsense all you like. These were savage people making up savage laws... and the God they invented agreed with them.


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Context is everything. They were at war with people who actively tried to kill them, curse them, and cause them to sin and have plagues brought against them. The people's they were at war with would have shown even less mercy, and already had.
Context is everything. The Ancient Jews were savage, warlike people that murdered and pillaged anyone they could. And the God they invented agreed with their actions which gave them a divine right to murder, rape, and enslave as they saw fit.

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Atheisim using the arm of Marxism is responsible for untold millions of deaths and genocide. It containst nothing pure.
Can you demonstrate that such genocide was a direct result of a lack of belief in God? That that was the driving force? Or did these murderers just happen to be Atheists? See it doesn't work the same way as it does with an actual religion. The Jews were killing in the name of God. It is impossible to kill in the name of no God. Atheism is not a belief system. It is a lack of a belief. When an Atheist does anything... it's just the nature of THAT person... not a belief system. It's the ultimate in personal responsibility.

I have no belief in any God. Tomorrow if I kill a bunch of people... it's simply my fault and has nothing to do with a commandment from God or instruction from a higher power. It's just me. Even if I kill a bunch of Christians. It might seem as though I am lashing out at them because of their faith. But it's simply because as a strategist I understand that religion, family ties, race, geographical origins can be a flag under which people might rally against me. So I would choose to exterminate that bond. Not because it is counter to what I do or do not believe but because it may serve to threaten my power. Has nothing to do with a belief or lack thereof on my part.

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If you are looking for salvation, with the goal is peaceful eternal life, Christianity is the the better choice.
There is no salvation to be found in an invented God.
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Old 09-23-2012, 20:43   #87
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Originally Posted by Kingarthurhk View Post
He is perpetually punished by having to see to her care all of his life. In that culture violating a woman and casting her aside was worse than the offense of violation.
Did anyone consult the women about that? How did they feel about being perpetually punished by being married off to the man who violated them?
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He has essentially ruined her for any other man. Just as Joseph contemplated getting rid of a pregnant Mary, until it was revealed to Him the true nature of the pregnancy.
There's also the whole putting her to death if she didn't cry out enough while being raped thing to take into consideration.
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I think a modified version of that in this country would be good. If you violate a woman, you are responsible for her financially for life. That would probably reduce the ammount of rapes rather than a light sentence and back into society with no other consequence.
In your law enforcement career, how many victims of sexual assault have you run into that were pining to spend more time with their victimizers?
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Also, durring that phase in human history a man could easily divorce a wife. Not so with this circumstance. What he has done must be always beofre him.
And he gets a handy wife to care for his house and provide sexual companionship, whether she wants to or not. Does that really seem like justice?
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Context is everything. They were at war with people who actively tried to kill them, curse them, and cause them to sin and have plagues brought against them. The people's they were at war with would have shown even less mercy, and already had.
In certain contexts, genocide is justified. Got it.
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Atheisim using the arm of Marxism is responsible for untold millions of deaths and genocide. It containst nothing pure.

As to Jainism it is Buddhism lite. Attachments to things or people cause misery, karma is in play, so you have to live untold multiple lives full of suffering as a punishment for actions committed in other lives, until nonexistance is achieved.

It shares a similar goal to Atheism, as it's ultimate goal is nonexistance.

So, if your goal is to suffer continually life time after life time until you no longer exist, I suppose Jainism is for you.

If you are looking for salvation, with the goal is peaceful eternal life, Christianity is the the better choice.
This is only true if in fact Christianity can offer eternal life. There's no objective evidence that it can, but plenty of evidence that its proponents support things like forcing rape victims to stay in contact with their attackers.
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Old 09-23-2012, 22:00   #88
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I personally don't think Jesus was married...

But if he was, what difference would it make?
Jesus did not have a wife. It wasn't His mission. He specifically states that He was 'sent' into the world and that His task was to do the will of His Father.

Jesus is referred to as the 'second Adam' in the New Testament.

The first Adam, in addition to his role as an image-bearer of God's 'likeness,' was commanded to 'be fruitful and multiply.' (This was recently mis-stated in a thread as a 'law' -- it wasn't a law.) Adam was made to populate the earth. But he disobeyed the command not to eat of the tree, and his posterity fell with him as the result of his disobedience. He created a race of doomed people.

Jesus came into the world to (a) live the obedient life that Adam failed to live, and (b) die an atoning death for those who place their faith in Him. As the head of a new 'race,' all those who are placed 'in Him' (as we were by birth 'in Adam') receive the benefits of His obedience, which is eternal life, as opposed to judgment and eternal punishment -- the destiny of those in Adam. It was not His mission to populate the earth, and there was no reason He had to marry. It is not a commandment of the Mosaic law to marry. The children of God are brought into the family by adoption, not by natural birth.

Finally, remember the unique circumstances of His birth. He did not have a human father, so He was untainted by the effects of the fall, which is why He was qualified to be the 'head' of a new race and to die as a sin-bearer for His people -- He was spotless. Any involvement with a fallen human wife would have been calamitous. It would have disqualified Him from His mission. But the short answer is, He didn't marry because He wasn't sent here to do that.

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Old 09-23-2012, 22:13   #89
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Finally, remember the unique circumstances of His birth. He did not have a human father, so He was untainted by the effects of the fall, which is why He was qualified to be the 'head' of a new race and to die as a sin-bearer for His people -- He was spotless. Any involvement with a fallen human wife would have been calamitous. It would have disqualified Him from His mission. But the short answer is, He didn't marry because He wasn't sent here to do that.
Being a bastard didn't disqualify him?
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Old 09-23-2012, 23:06   #90
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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
Jesus did not have a wife. It wasn't His mission. He specifically states that He was 'sent' into the world and that His task was to do the will of His Father.

Jesus is referred to as the 'second Adam' in the New Testament.

The first Adam, in addition to his role as an image-bearer of God's 'likeness,' was commanded to 'be fruitful and multiply.' (This was recently mis-stated in a thread as a 'law' -- it wasn't a law.) Adam was made to populate the earth. But he disobeyed the command not to eat of the tree, and his posterity fell with him as the result of his disobedience. He created a race of doomed people.

Jesus came into the world to (a) live the obedient life that Adam failed to live, and (b) die an atoning death for those who place their faith in Him. As the head of a new 'race,' all those who are placed 'in Him' (as we were by birth 'in Adam') receive the benefits of His obedience, which is eternal life, as opposed to judgment and eternal punishment -- the destiny of those in Adam. It was not His mission to populate the earth, and there was no reason He had to marry. It is not a commandment of the Mosaic law to marry. The children of God are brought into the family by adoption, not by natural birth.

Finally, remember the unique circumstances of His birth. He did not have a human father, so He was untainted by the effects of the fall, which is why He was qualified to be the 'head' of a new race and to die as a sin-bearer for His people -- He was spotless. Any involvement with a fallen human wife would have been calamitous. It would have disqualified Him from His mission. But the short answer is, He didn't marry because He wasn't sent here to do that.
The best solution the omnipotent, omniscient creator of all existence could come up with is a chain of events that wouldn't even make a plausible I Love Lucy episode, ending with the sacrifice of his son who was actually him to save everyone except the people he'd already decided should remain condemned?

Don't see any holes in that plot line.
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Old 09-24-2012, 04:37   #91
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Did anyone consult the women about that? How did they feel about being perpetually punished by being married off to the man who violated them?
The was the Mosaic civil law of the day. As Jesus mentions about divorce in the New Testament, these things were implemented because the people had hard hearts.

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There's also the whole putting her to death if she didn't cry out enough while being raped thing to take into consideration.
Again, Mosaic law. If she wasn't resisting, it was consider fornications/adultry. Then we have Jesus's example later on of recuing the adultress from being stoned to death, forgiving her, counseling her not to do it again, and sending her on way.

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In certain contexts, genocide is justified. Got it.
According to Atheist Marxism that is the gold standard.

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This is only true if in fact Christianity can offer eternal life. There's no objective evidence that it can, but plenty of evidence that its proponents support things like forcing rape victims to stay in contact with their attackers.
No, there isn't. Again you are confusing Mosaic and moral law. However, even today, it is not totally uncommon for a victim to have a civil suit after a criminal case.
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Old 09-24-2012, 04:52   #92
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The was the Mosaic civil law of the day. As Jesus mentions about divorce in the New Testament, these things were implemented because the people had hard hearts.
Then why do you, "think a modified version of that in this country would be good"? What exactly is a hard heart? Did the Biblical Jews have problems with cardiomyopathy? Why don't you ever answer direct questions?
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Again, Mosaic law. If she wasn't resisting, it was consider fornications/adultry.
So it's a guilty until proven innocent kind of a thing. Got it.
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Then we have Jesus's example later on of recuing the adultress from being stoned to death, forgiving her, counseling her not to do it again, and sending her on way.
He didn't forgive her, he condemned her accusers as equally sinful. Because they didn't have the guts to carry out the prescribed punishment, she got off. Jesus didn't forgive her, he just told her not to do it again. The Pericope Adulterae is also a late addition to the Bible, but that's a discussion for another time.
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According to Atheist Marxism that is the gold standard.
According to you, it's the Biblical standard.
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No, there isn't. Again you are confusing Mosaic and moral law. However, even today, it is not totally uncommon for a victim to have a civil suit after a criminal case.
You're a Christian, by your own assertion. You just advocated, " If you violate a woman, you are responsible for her financially for life."

In literally one sentence, there's more objective evidence for my claim than for the assertion that Christianity offers peaceful eternal life.
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Old 09-24-2012, 05:29   #93
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All that proves is that you are socially awkward.
No, if he said he was 16 and still a virgin, he'd be "socially awkward." At 28, he's just in the closet, so his post actually supports the "Jesus might have been gay" argument.
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Old 09-24-2012, 07:23   #94
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The traditional Church teachings wanted him to be single because that avoided having to search for his offspring and descendents. The direct blood descendent of Jesus Christ may well be walking around Cannes France today. It would be neat to study God's DNA.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:07   #95
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The best solution the omnipotent, omniscient creator of all existence could come up with is a chain of events that wouldn't even make a plausible I Love Lucy episode, ending with the sacrifice of his son who was actually him to save everyone except the people he'd already decided should remain condemned?

Don't see any holes in that plot line.
It's at least as good an idea as the pastry episode where the conveyor belt moved too fast and Lucy and Ethel had to eat the cherries they coulnd't put on the cupcakes...

This, too, is a thread-worthy question. Why? Why allow evil into the universe -- it takes a heavy toll, including the suffering of God's Son. Why not create Adam (and the angels) non posse peccare (not possible to sin), which is apparently the destiny of the redeemed in heaven -- they will be unable to sin. The only way to answer that is to say that it suits God's purposes, and must therefore be good. He doesn't make 'mistakes,' doesn't learn as He goes. He saw it all and did it this way because in the end it brings Him glory, which is the highest goal of all, and the best use of everything He made.
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Old 09-24-2012, 08:45   #96
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Finally, remember the unique circumstances of His birth. He did not have a human father, so He was untainted by the effects of the fall, which is why He was qualified to be the 'head' of a new race and to die as a sin-bearer for His people -- He was spotless.
But he didn't die. God can't die. He just took three days off. As far as being spotless, on at least one occasion, he had a tantrum which eventually got him executed, but not really.

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Any involvement with a fallen human wife would have been calamitous. It would have disqualified Him from His mission. But the short answer is, He didn't marry because He wasn't sent here to do that.
Paul says all have sinned. Therefore the mother of Jesus was a fallen human wife. If it was good enough for the father, why wasn't it good enough for the son? Jesus spent most of his life around fallen people. You're argument doesn't hold.
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Old 09-24-2012, 09:36   #97
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The was the Mosaic civil law of the day. As Jesus mentions about divorce in the New Testament, these things were implemented because the people had hard hearts.

Again, Mosaic law. If she wasn't resisting, it was consider fornications/adultry. Then we have Jesus's example later on of recuing the adultress from being stoned to death, forgiving her, counseling her not to do it again, and sending her on way.

Again you are confusing Mosaic and moral law.
No, you're not going to use this cop out. I've heard way too many believers try to wiggle out of the horrible laws these people created by saying it was their law and not God's. The Jews consider THE ENTIRE OLD TESTAMENT to be inspired by God. Including their laws. You and your apologist buddies don't get to redefine that. All of it was brought to them from Yahweh. You do not get to place the origin of the laws on the people and not God. Your God... the one who later showed up in the flesh as Christ felt it was OK to rape a woman as long as you paid her father 50 pieces of silver and took her off his hands. This is how YOUR GOD thinks.

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According to Atheist Marxism that is the gold standard.
Can you demonstrate that this was in the name of Atheism? That is was in the name of a lack of belief? I'd love to watch you try.

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Old 09-24-2012, 16:29   #98
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Are you going to answer the question or not?
This will really get into quite a tangent, not unlike trying to explain differential equations to an infant.

Like I said, you're very badly misinterpreting scripture, reading it much like a fundamentalist.

Would you be willing to read a book or two on the subject?

We are justified not by faith alone, not by works alone, but by, as St. Paul calls it (Romans 1:5 and 16:26) the obedience of faith.

Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
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Old 09-24-2012, 17:39   #99
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This will really get into quite a tangent, not unlike trying to explain differential equations to an infant.

Like I said, you're very badly misinterpreting scripture, reading it much like a fundamentalist.

Would you be willing to read a book or two on the subject?

We are justified not by faith alone, not by works alone, but by, as St. Paul calls it (Romans 1:5 and 16:26) the obedience of faith.

Jas 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Well it's no secret that the bible contradicts itself all over the place. But I take it to mean that you believe that it's a combination of works and faith?

Brokenprism thinks it is preordained and that those who will be in hell are already known and free will is an illusion. He feels you are misreading scripture.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says "8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Seems fairly clear that salvation is a gift from God via his mercy and it is attained through faith and not works. Lest any many think he can brag about his works that attained him that salvation.

Mark 10:25-27 Says "25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

Seems Jesus states that there is nothing you can do (works) to be saved. That it is only through God that such a thing is possible. And above it would seem that salvation is God's reward of faith... not works.

Are you taking the term Apostle in Rom.1:5 to mean all followers of Christ? That the spreading of the word is your work in apostleship? Do you believe that to believe and accept christ is not enough to attain salvation. That even if you believe but are not spreading the gospel that you'll go to Hell?

Titus 3:4-8 seems to state that Christians may set a good example by good deeds but it is God's mercy that has saved us... not anything righteous we have done.

John 3:14-21 states that men gain eternal life in heaven by believing in Christ and that those who do not believe are condemned. I included 21 because it does mention works. But it does not imply that works are what earn salvation. Only that you will know a Christian by their deeds.
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Old 09-24-2012, 18:05   #100
Animal Mother
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Originally Posted by brokenprism View Post
It's at least as good an idea as the pastry episode where the conveyor belt moved too fast and Lucy and Ethel had to eat the cherries they coulnd't put on the cupcakes...
Heathen. You change and distort the story. The conveyor belt episode was them wrapping candies and then attempting to eat them when the belt went too fast. As I said, no plot holes, unlike the story you're trying to sell.
Quote:
This, too, is a thread-worthy question. Why? Why allow evil into the universe -- it takes a heavy toll, including the suffering of God's Son. Why not create Adam (and the angels) non posse peccare (not possible to sin), which is apparently the destiny of the redeemed in heaven -- they will be unable to sin. The only way to answer that is to say that it suits God's purposes, and must therefore be good.
Evil must be good? Has Oceania also always been at war with Eastasia?
Quote:
He doesn't make 'mistakes,' doesn't learn as He goes. He saw it all and did it this way because in the end it brings Him glory, which is the highest goal of all, and the best use of everything He made.
God is a narcissist and all that matters is his glorification? What would you say about a human who took that approach to the world?
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Nov 11, 2013 at 16:42