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Old 04-22-2012, 21:16   #21
Zombie Steve
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokersamurai View Post

So I'm confused why do people keep stating that a 45 acp out of a short barrel is a poor performer? According to ballisticsbytheinch.com a Federal 230gr 45 ACP out of a 3" barrel chronographs at 811 fps. Compare that to a Federal 225gr 45 Colt round chronographs at 791 fps out of a 5.5" barrel. So wouldn't a XDS with 5+1 45 ACP have the same firepower as a full-size 45 Colt 6 shot revolver (which I don't think anyone would call underpowered), or is there some other factor I'm missing? Please let me know your opinions on this topic.

Thanks
I don't think anyone has pointed out that the .45 Colt the OP references sounds like a cowboy action load. It's pretty wimpy, particularly for a .45 Colt. A normal standard pressure load would be 250 - 255 grain at 850-900 fps.
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Old 04-22-2012, 22:07   #22
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Ballistics by the inch is unreliable. You cannot take the average loss per inch going from a 16" barrel down to a 3" barrel. The loss goes up incrementally as you get shorter, and the greatest loss occurs when going from the 4" down to the 3". You may only lose 25-50 fps when going from 5" to 4", but you may lose another 75-100 fps when going that extra inch down to 3".

8-9% is way off. Based on tests with chrono results that I have read, my G36, with 3.78" barrel and octagonal rifling profile (which helps velocity a bit), is losing about 7-10% versus a 5" barrel. A 3.3" barrel with standard rifling and a hexagonal profile (like the XDs) is going to lose more, probably in the 12-15% range.

I personally consider about 3.5" to be the cutoff for .45 acp barrel length. Do some new loads work sometimes in the short-barrel .45s? Yes, most times they do... But do you want to risk your life on it? I suppose worst-case scenario if you have a HP that doesn't open up at least you have a SWC with little teeth.

And this is why I don't find the new XDs alluring. I am sure it's a great gun. I just think it's a tad too small for a .45, ballistics-wise. But if I were forced to carry one, I would be running the hottest 185 gr. HPs I could find, probably Corbon standard JHPs at 1150 fps (5" barrel).

Just my opinion.

Last edited by WinterWizard; 04-22-2012 at 22:13..
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Old 07-26-2012, 07:59   #23
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Now that the XDS has been out a while now, is there any chronograph data available for it yet?
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Old 09-15-2012, 00:43   #24
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Originally Posted by ricklee4570 View Post
Now that the XDS has been out a while now, is there any chronograph data available for it yet?
Here:
http://www.gunsandammo.com/reviews/c...ld-xds-review/

Though I found this for a better carry gun:
http://www.waltherforums.com/forum/p...sults-pps.html

Looks like the 9mm does a little better from short barrels; Approx. 279 foot pounds of energy for the .45, & 351 for the 9mm loads. Wow, must suck to get .380 energy from a 19 dollar box of .45 rounds, with less penetration than a 9... I was considering an XDs too. Think I'll go with my original plan and stick to the PPS.
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Old 09-15-2012, 01:31   #25
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Originally Posted by PghJim View Post
I am not sure the loss by the inch is correct for all 45 rounds. There was a recent article about the XDS and the 230gr rounds were around 750 as I recall. I have a P45Kahr with a 3" barrel and went to Corbon or Buffalo Bore 185gr +p Barnes copper bullet. In water, I could not get anything to reliably expands outside of the copper bullets when going through 4 layers of denim. The 230gr +p HST expanded some. I have not chronographed any, but I would say that anything less than 750 FPS will have difficulty through clothing. The Corbon 185gr +p copper bullets are working great for me.
Actually, according to Kahr's website the P45 has a 3.54" barrel. It is the PM45 that has a 3.24" barrel. That might make a difference, albeit only about 1/4 inch, but still.

I have a CW45 and it has a 3.64" barrel (why it's 0.1" longer than the P45 I have no idea). I fired a standard pressure 230gr HST through 4 layers of denim into water and it expanded to ~ .80", so that was encouraging. While I haven't chrono'd the standard pressure HST I'd wager it was still well into the 800+fps range, which should be more than enough juice for the HST to work.
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Old 09-15-2012, 07:23   #26
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If I had a Glock .45 to go along with my G17 9mm, I'd carry the .45 in my VT winters, and the 9mm in the warmer months.
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Old 09-15-2012, 12:29   #27
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Originally Posted by ABNAK View Post
Actually, according to Kahr's website the P45 has a 3.54" barrel. It is the PM45 that has a 3.24" barrel. That might make a difference, albeit only about 1/4 inch, but still.
You are correct the P45 has a 3.5" barrel and it was a typo on my part. I am not saying the 45 is not effective at shorter barrel lengths, but it has been my experience that you may have expansion diffculties below 4". I Chronographed the BB and Corbon 185 +p copper bullets and DT 160gr +p copper bulllet out of my 3.5" Kahr. BB was 1,036fps, Corbon was 954fps and the DT was 1,042fps. All expanded and seem to penetrate well. These are the bullets I would use with a barrel below 4".

Last edited by PghJim; 09-15-2012 at 12:30..
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Old 01-26-2013, 21:08   #28
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Originally Posted by cowboywannabe View Post
a short bbl .45acp benefits greatly from the lighter weight loads which retain a higher velocity.

a 230gr. round going 850fps from a 5" might only get 750fps from a 3.5" bbl which may or may not be enough for proper and consistant expansion.

while a 185gr. round going 1000 fps from a 5" bbl may still get 900 fps from a 3.5" bbl.
That may be true, but the 230 does not rely on velocity as much to work. What really matters is which one expands to the largest diameter when penetrating 12-18 inches. Assuming that is the 185 is pure speculation and there is no reason to assume it is the answer.

Last edited by rsilvers; 01-26-2013 at 21:09..
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Old 01-26-2013, 21:22   #29
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230 +P in either HST or Ranger-T series will do just fine from the short barrel.

The standard pressure version of the above isn't far behind, even from the short barrel. I personally prefer the +P ammo from the short barrel gun as long as it's still controllable.
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Old 01-26-2013, 21:36   #30
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Originally Posted by CanyonMan View Post

Just because you have a short tube in a 45acp, does not mean you have to start using 180gr'ers to get more horse power to do the job. Good greif this gun /caliber was desinged around a 230gr bullet. Use it. Get the momentum and penetration you need to have out of your 45's. I have never seen so many folks buy a 45acp and then drop down to the 185gr bullet. Why not stick with the 230gr and get the hard hit and the needed penetration. The short barrels will still do fine with the 230gr I assure you.



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I have an XDs and it will get a diet of 230 HPs, because it doesn't need the velocity to do what it's good at. I figure the HP has a profile that is more likely to cut than slip through and if it were to have enough velocity to "Over penetrate" it would probably have the velocity to expand and not over penetrate.
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Old 01-27-2013, 18:55   #31
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230 grains is why I love the .45 to begin with. All the smaller cartridges rely on velocity and pushing the limits to do what the .45 does without breaking a sweat.

Even when you push it up a notch with .45 +P, it's still not breaking a sweat and it's performance has no equal with anything but the most powerful handgun cartridges.

Needless to say, I'm very happy with the .45 and the 230 grain bullet.
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Old 01-27-2013, 19:28   #32
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QFT
I have an XDs and it will get a diet of 230 HPs, because it doesn't need the velocity to do what it's good at. I figure the HP has a profile that is more likely to cut than slip through and if it were to have enough velocity to "Over penetrate" it would probably have the velocity to expand and not over penetrate.
I reckon I am not PC savvy enough to know what "QFT" means yet ... haha !

If your saying that 45's don't have to run at rocket speed to dispatch the target or threat (two legged) your correct. And the 230gr have the momentum to get where they need to go.

Thats why "in town," I carry one. Usually the M1911, sometimes the single stack G36. I admit I do hand load my own for the G36, because I have never found factory stuff that get's out of the 600's-700's fps range in that 3.78" tube, so I load a 230gr XTP at 907fps. Does it it need to be that warm? nope. Does it hurt to be? Nope! It is what my favorite load and powder worked out to be in that short barrel, so I gladly accept it ! I'm happy with that. 850 + is fine with me in a 230gr 45acp. I just can't justify lighter bullets in this caliber to get there.

Like you, it seems, are saying pard, the 230gr does what it needs to do without going to lighter bullets, or pushing it to outragous vels.





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Old 01-29-2013, 08:35   #33
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Stay with the .45 ACP. It is the caliber that the .357 tries hard to expand up to.
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Old 06-23-2014, 18:11   #34
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Originally Posted by collim1 View Post
The Gold Dot Short barrel, which I am a huge fan of in snub .38's, in .45 is tested from a 4in barrel.

Is my P220 really considered a "short barrel" .45? That is my only problem with the short barrel .45 loads. They should designs a .45 to perform out of a 3" barrel.
In my mind, 5 inches is a long barrel, 4 inches is in the middle, and 3-3.5 inches is a short barrel. If I were designing short barrel ammunition, I would test it in barrels from 3-4 inches.

I assume the "short barrel" ammo is tuned to reach FBI 15 inches of penetration from a shorter barrel. They would achieve this by having a larger HP cavity and/or thinner walls. Low-flash powder is good.

I doubt that they use "faster" powder. I keep on hearing people say that, but I am not sure why that would help raise velocity. Powder speed is based on bullet mass, not barrel length.
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Old 06-23-2014, 18:15   #35
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Originally Posted by WinterWizard View Post
I personally consider about 3.5" to be the cutoff for .45 acp barrel length. Do some new loads work sometimes in the short-barrel .45s? Yes, most times they do... But do you want to risk your life on it? I suppose worst-case scenario if you have a HP that doesn't open up at least you have a SWC with little teeth.

And this is why I don't find the new XDs alluring. I am sure it's a great gun. I just think it's a tad too small for a .45, ballistics-wise. But if I were forced to carry one, I would be running the hottest 185 gr. HPs I could find, probably Corbon standard JHPs at 1150 fps (5" barrel).
You seem to be saying that if you were going to have a short barrel, you would prefer another caliber to 45. So for example, 9mm from a 3 inch barrel is better than 45 Auto from a 3 inch barrel. But is this true?

Also I am suspicious of recommendations to use 185s if the barrel is short. It seems to be an argument that it keeps the velocity up, and somehow that is better. I am not sure that is the case. If a 185 and a 230 both expand to 0.65 inches, and both penetrate 15.0 inches of gel, why is the 185 better than the 230?
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Old 06-23-2014, 19:59   #36
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Originally Posted by rsilvers View Post
You seem to be saying that if you were going to have a short barrel, you would prefer another caliber to 45. So for example, 9mm from a 3 inch barrel is better than 45 Auto from a 3 inch barrel. But is this true?

Also I am suspicious of recommendations to use 185s if the barrel is short. It seems to be an argument that it keeps the velocity up, and somehow that is better. I am not sure that is the case. If a 185 and a 230 both expand to 0.65 inches, and both penetrate 15.0 inches of gel, why is the 185 better than the 230?
Hardly true at all. A 3" anything, well maybe a 44mag being the exception, is going to significantly mess with terminal ballistics, UNLESS the bullet is designed for the reduced vel. The 230gr HST std vel makes 830fps+ in my 3.8" XD45C. It still expands to 75cal+, penetrates enough to exit a smaller target. No need for the extra flash & bang you get in +P loads, which a 9mm in a short bbl really needs to get off it's knees IMO.
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Old 06-23-2014, 20:50   #37
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3.5" and less I would use only HST 230gr but that is my preferred .45 carry load in any length.

Last edited by cowboy1964; 06-23-2014 at 20:50..
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Old 06-23-2014, 21:16   #38
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+p HST make up for the short barrel at near range.

Otherwise Gold Dot Short Barrel has a different alloy jacket for proper expansion.

Still I would guess anything at high subsonic ~1050fps would make enough lbft (it's a lb before it's a ft, like Newton meters) to perform.

Batts

force - distance - time = lbft/sec
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:30   #39
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Well fred you know amigo I respect ya. But running the loads I run has never effected my shooting, accuracy, or speed, so.... So I stay with what works for me...

I still rather shoot a 230gr at 900+FPS than a lighter bullet at 750fps. As I said, I shoot the 44mag and the 45acp very fast and very accurately.. Perhaps it's just me. But because I can, I choose to do so.

CM
Maybe I missed something but I didn't see fred recommend 185 or 200 gr at 750. I agree with fred thinking on this. I don't consider 200gr (at 850fps) a light bullet. I think its ideal in shorter barrels. But we all have our preferences according to what works for us and gives us confidence.
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:56   #40
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I found this very interesting. Although it doesn't reference the short barrel topic, it does compare Ranger-T to HST.

http://pistol-forum.com/showthread.p...45T-vs-P45HST2
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